ceasefire

In any spec, Crit creates pressure which causes healers to overadjust which wins games.

But I do agree with the sentiments, if you're going to play Endless Rage (lol), gem for AP.

 

Morsexy

Well for me I am good and god damn sick and tired of having to even deal with the spec crap. You can't play 5's without TM, the possibility of instant burst is simply too much, at least in my experience in the 2200-2300 bracket. And in every other bracket I find it a total waste. The damage potential when using a damage build is far higher than losing what equates to 3 top end points that most good players can avoid\nullify\oh hey stun.

Is there another class in the game that spends only 3 points in a tree for PVP? To the best of my knowledge there is not and after all these classes got these "game changing" abilities as part of their learned skills ( Ice block, Innervate ) and they threw us a bone with the 10 rage.

I know I am not the only person who feels this way, otherwise reflect wouldn't cost 15 rage in ( future patch? Expansion, I dont remember which) the future. What I dislike about how it works is how the effect of your 3\3 TM is felt in the metagame of arenas. You either use it in a 4 - >1 situation to (hopefully) own the burst that is about to hit you from varying sources, or you use it offensively in a 1 on 1 situation to be "tricky" as it were and reflect a cyclone on a druid after you have pummeled and intercepted and hopefully the druid is low, or a mage's polymorph.

What I also dislike is that even though the skill threshold for a warrior is somewhat lower than for perhaps a class that can do multiple abilities on multiple targets ( druid, lock, mage ) if you are someone who can be operating at a higher effeciency level you are punished. The fact is that I should be able to Reflect Macro ( poly\fear ) -> Shield Bash a heal - > 2h -> intercept kill the healer I am on. This is simply not possible and frankly at this point thats ridiculous.

It has been my experience that for anything besides 5's, id much rather just tough it out in bers stance and try to use the rage to force them on the defensive since at least if\when I get CC'd I have 50+ rage to keep the damage train going when I am out of the CC.

I think there are several solutions that would alleviate this problem without overly changing the balance of current pvp\arenas.

1. Remove the 10% additional damage in berseker stance (this element is so ridiculous in the current PvE balance of 'raids are tougher by adding 12 concurrent aoe raid damage abilities' to bosses). Why does this even still exist is my question. I guess this was OK when people actually used Battle Stance, but we are down to 3 abilities in that stance only. Mocking Blow, Overpower the "anti Rogue" ability that sucks since rogues generally crap on your face now if they want to, and Charge. Soon it will be two with the Mblow change, and thats enough for us to say that it is either time to retire battle stance or get rid of the archaic 10% more damage taken in bers.
2. Let us passively gain 1 rage no matter if we are in combat or not, up to a cap, somewhere in the 10-20 rage. I mean people are already "tricky" with rage pre Arena, lets just end the shenanigans and let everyone start with some rage. Change improved charge to "increases stun duration by .5\1".
3. Make 25 rage tactical mastery a learned ability. I would bet this has the least chance of this happening for whatever reason.

 

• LodeRunner

I don't know why you needed two separate posts. There's a pretty sweet multiquote tool at everyone's disposal. Please take note of it for the future.

In any event, Imp MS has been brought up again. The last time it was on the discussion table it was largely agreed to be a miserably bad talent. There were, however, a few holdouts who vehemently disagreed but could not provide any real convincing examples of its usefulness. If you're up to the challenge, Lithose, I encourage you to find that discussion. Take a close look at it, then come back here and try to win me over with an argument of logic of why you would dump 4 points in that awful, awful talent.

Oh man I just looked at your armory. You completely skipped Imp Hamstring for Imp MS. You've got your work cut out for you.

Can't you see what I'm doing here? I'm holding my own urine in a cup because I have responsibilities. Won't you help?

 

Morsexy

Just to expand on your post Lode, is there even another class that doesn't use its 41 point talent? I'm still astonished people spec 41 points in Arms.

The locks who spec SL\SL do it as a choice, I am sure one is better than the other, but its not like Felguards are the worst suck that ever sucked. Every warrior PVP talent exists in the 20-35 range of both arms and fury. If that doesn't scream Blizzard had no clue what to do with 41 point arms and just gave up, then I don't know whats going on.

I am not looking forward to 51 point arms when so much of it is total garbage. ( assuming Blade Dance\Storm is good )

 

Bula

Sure, full resto or restokin druids and tri specced hunters come to mind in addition to warlocks.

edit: forgot to mention ele shaman.

 

• LodeRunner

The central focus of the Warrior's talent tree is the 31 point talent. This is true of every tree because at 31 points you get the 6 second instant with a secondary effect. Other class talent trees aren't really centered around the 31 point talents like Warrior ones. Yes, I know they might change prot to give every Warrior shield slam and thereby nullify what I just wrote. However, for now it stands.

Can't you see what I'm doing here? I'm holding my own urine in a cup because I have responsibilities. Won't you help?

 

xarg

The point is, there are very very few warriors who take endless rage. Plenty of resto druids take treeform. Plenty of hunters take their 41 point talents (though I'm not sure about readiness).

Any pve elemental shaman will have totem of wrath.

The one example you mentioned that is near to the mark is warlocks, shadowfury is a pvp talent in a position where you have excluded yourself from being good at pvp by not getting soul link.

 

Thunderbrew

I mainly do 2s arena, and currently use Stormherald.

I just got 150 badges and I am considering the Blade of the Harbringers.

I do love the stuns, but the axe is allot more white damage, and faster HS hits between MS hits.

Any thoughts on the viability of this?

 

1337beast

you could have search other threads to have the answer but I'll give it to ya anyway

StormHerald>>>evrey other weapon for 2's ecept the s3 and s4 mace. simple as that.

axe spex is generally considered the worst weapon spec. because 5% more crit is negligable due to alot of people having so much resilience you don't crit them alot anyway.

stuns aren't affected by resilience and provide an additional CC wich is much needed in a healer/warrior team.

secondly, no you won't pull out more damage because you have a faster wepon speed. yes you attack faster but you do a bit less damage every time.

with the axe, you might get around 37-38% crit instead of 32-33%. that's really not big of a difference and certainly won't win you the match.


if you stun the healer 2 or 3 times in a 2v2, you're pretty much win. after a 4 seconds stun, he'll have less than 50% health left and if he tries to run away you still have intercept to finish him off. most likely a lucky stun a the right moment will win you a match.

the thing is, when you stun some1, he can't run away or heal for 3-4 seconds in wich you hit him very hard. witht he axe, you'll get maybe 5-6 more crits in the whole game but you won't kill the healer because he's helaling through all your crits due to you not having any stun except intercept every 15 seconds.



and lastly, 150 badges is WAY too much for this weapon. you coould get the 2 fist weapons for fury PVE, the dory's embrace wich is the best back available or simply buy some nether vortex to make alot of money.

 

Whistles

I hear this argument a lot and it doesn't hold water at all. Past the ~10% crit chance reduction adding additional crit doesn't take into account resilience at all. I think where this comes from is people hearing that axe spec is bad because of resilience but it's because of the ~20% damage reduction on crit not the chance reduction.

I really wish the other specs were more viable in 2s. I hate feeling like I'm relying on the RNG to like me today.

 

K4ge

I'd like to take up another issue about warrior pvp: WotlK

The talents in arms look sweet enough (overpower cooldown/more str/sta and bladestorm) but I somehow get the feeling I have to go through too much crap to get at them. I'm actually thinking abut something along the lines 35/33/3 (didn't look up the talents) just to get two powerful instants instead of wasting points in the 35-45 point regions in arms.

 

• Calantus

Not to get all backseat moderator on you but this isn't really the place for WotLK speculation. There's a WotLK thread in general and even a thread dedicated just to warrior WotLK speculation you can find here: [Warrior] WotLK talent Preview/Discussion

 

Lithose

I'll make sure to double quote in the future, sorry, was in a rush and wasn't looking.

My spec is designed for a specific team composition with specific strategies, my druid, as you can see, is also not a normal spec. I won't be trying to convince you that improved MS is awesome, because frankly Improved MS is a poor talent. As you know this is mainly because it doesn't provide as much DPS per point as most talents (And other factors, such as not being in range often to use the short CD effectively.) However, in an ER spec it provides more damage than any other talent point for point if you're maxed out on the obvious ones (Two handed spec, Impale ect)...with the following stipulations in mind.

1.) You're counting on never being focused on (On my team, I never am).
2.) Your team set up provides a great deal of control and support.

This spec I only use 3v3, and only because we run Priest/Druid/Warrior, which is a dying team comp after the rogue changes, however, we made it work all the way to 2250 last season. Because the team is also heavy support for the warrior I can also make use of the lower CD on MS, as I am often in range. This isn't possible with other comps, usually, which is another reason why with most compositions improved MS is terrible. The reason why imp HS is dropped is simply because my druid provides a lot of control and me being the only source of damage makes any small gains I can get an improvement. On my other teams I always run a more classic 35/23/3 build.

On that note, I really wish people would read my posts, considering this is the third time I have explained why I took "poor talents".

 

• LodeRunner

I, for one, am really tired of people thinking they can get two "powerful instants". For the last fucking time, they are on a shared timer!

Can't you see what I'm doing here? I'm holding my own urine in a cup because I have responsibilities. Won't you help?

 

Bula

The question and discussion was clearly pvp spec. I'm not here to split hairs. The guy asked a question and got a correct answer. Thanks for your input.

 

Crimsonstorm

Axe vs Sword vs Mace:

Axe and Sword specs both provide a 5% chance to crit/get extra attack, resulting in increased damage and increase chance of burst damage (which is how you kill people in pvp). Maces provide stuns, giving extra control and utility.

Comparing Axe vs Sword is fairly easy.

Axe gives +5% crit. A crit is double damage before resilience, but only 80% extra damage after resilience, against a 400 resilience target. Accounting for impale and resilience, its +80% for white attacks and +100% for specials. That’s about 4.5% or so added damage. For burst damage, it increases the chance of a string of crits.

Swords give a 5% chance to give a free attack, which could crit. A free attack is worth more than 100% bonus damage on average. If it’s a normal hit then its +100%. But if it’s a crit then its +180% (accounting for resilience. Not sure if it counts as a special attack, if it does then its +200%). Given a 25-30% crit chance against a 400 resilience target, that means that a free extra attack is really worth like 120% or so extra damage. And thus sword spec increases damage by like 6% or so.

Conclusion #1: Sword spec provides more extra damage on average, than axe spec.

Second we look at burst damage. Axe spec can only provide a crit, for about double damage. But with sword spec, either the normal attack or the extra attack or both could crit, yielding 3 or even 4 times as much damage, on rare occasions. Say you have 30% crit after resilience reduction. Each time sword spec procs, the chance that exactly one of the two attacks is a crit, is 42%! The chance that both crit is 9%. (51% chance of at least one critting).

The result is more burst damage, and burst damage wins games. If you were giving up some overall damage to get the extra burst (like trading str for crit), then it would be unclear which was better.

Conclusion #2: Sword spec ALSO provides more burst damage than axe spec, in addition to more average damage.

Third, we look at hamstring. You should be spamming hamstring at least every 15 seocnds, probably more. Axe spec increases the crit chance of hamstring by 5%, with a crit yielding an extra 63 damage lol! Sword spec gives it a 5% chance of giving a free swing, for around a THOUSAND damage (vs low armor target), which could even crit for close to two thousand. Given the frequent use of hamstring, this is another way that sword spec is clearly superior.

So Sword is obviously massively better than axes. The next question is mace vs sword. Here, you have to evaluate the value of a 3 second stun vs a free attack. Generally in 5s the sword is better because you just want to kill your focus target quickly. In 2s, you are generally fighting to stay engaged with your target, and a stun gives you a free 3 seconds where you can attack them, and they cant do anything. It can also support your partner by preventing damage to them, let your partner run away, or interrupt casts or heals. Thus Maces tend to be best in 2s. For 2s it probably depends on group makeup.


Switching from the best weapon type to the worst would be very bad, even if the weapon stats themselves are somewhat better.

 

zournyque

@ LodeRunner
I think "improved Mortal Strike" would be a good talent if you manage to keep up "MS" on two targets the whole time.
This would double the required healing for the enemy.
But practically you cannot realize it versus most opponents as you depend on too much factors which you cannot influence.
That's why I prefer my "36-22-3 spec" in most of the arena matches I do.

 

• LodeRunner

Hence it is not a good talent. This was my original point.

Can't you see what I'm doing here? I'm holding my own urine in a cup because I have responsibilities. Won't you help?

 

ceasefire

You seem good at regurgitating dogmatic advice given by ignorants, but with statements like this and your gear/rating level you really shouldn't be giving advice to other warriors. The s4 sword and s4 axe are unquestionably better than Stormherald, as is the s3 Sword in many, many team comps you can choose.

Maces are better versus Druids, Rogues, Paladins, Hunters, Mages, Shamans and have very solid utility against the other classes. They also keep you alive longer versus double/triple/four dps teams in the brackets.

Swords are better versus Pets, Priests, Warlocks (2v2 and 3v3) and arguably Warriors (you give them less Rage with Swords but a Mace Stun lets you put up MS/Disarm with no Parry/Dodge). Sword Spec also is generally more explosive if your team likes to target swap frequently (2345 comes to mind) and if you run with an aggressive Shaman.

Obviously for hardcore PvP you should pick Maces. The reason top players pick Maces is not your "Mace Stun, Mace Stun, Intercept whee the Healer died." That rarely ever happens. The reason is Mace Stun leads to
1) Guaranteed MS uptime
2) Great peels for your healers to drink
3) Interruptions of HoT/Heal rotations
4) Interruptions of DoT/Damage rotations

But the base resistance talents of certain classes, and the ability for Maces to break your Pummel and ruin it, counterbalance those facts somewhat. I would take Maces all day every day, but saying Stormherald is better than other weapons two tiers above it is just stupid. Saying you do less damage with a faster weapon with higher DPS is just stupid. You do more damage. Slower is better when weapon damage is equal.

And Lithose, I don't know the specifics of your spec but there is really no reason to ever take Endless Rage under any situation. 35/23/3 is infinitely better in so many scenarios it's ridiculous. You can make any list of reasons for your spec you want (Based on your talk I'm assuming something like 45/11/3, which leaves out Disarm Resist, Enrage, and Piercing Howl). Enrage puts out more burst/overall damage than ER, Warriors are rarely rage starved in double healer anyways, Sweeping Strikes is one of the best rage dumps and helps kill Pets/Opponents, and the lack of disarm protection will lose you multiple games at higher brackets.

25% rage gain isn't even that great. Seriously, good Warriors should almost never be rage starved, and with a Priest providing dispels there's no way a shield can even keep you starved. What are you going to use that extra rage on? Spamstring?

 

Lithose

PMR is the most common team past 2k. Even with double healer its very very difficult to not be rage starved. Between maintaining sunder armor, Ham string, MS and intercepting, intervening, disarming for peels, rage is always an issue. I am *never* touched by any good team unless they want to try and gib me, in which case I have to shield and LoS..In these rare cases, yes, enrage would be better, but they are just that, rare.

Also, my spec is 41/17/3. I have 2 in enrage for the off chance of focus attempts, as rare as it is. As for where my extra rage goes? Most often it goes into the extra Mortal strikes I tend to do, yes, the lower cool down on that team comp does come in handy.

In any case, I have been above 2k on a few teams, and this spec, for this team simply does more damage and works better. I hate to say it, but anyone who says 25% more rage isn't great, isn't doing enough to help his team win. Is it worth giving up the other talents? In this case, I say it is, in most cases I would say no.

Also..how exactly does enrage give you more burst if you never get enraged?

 

Humbaba

Care to elaborate on what you mean by this?

 

Stolidus

I'd guess he means a mace stun (presumably a short duration one) that occurs just before you were going to pummel, meaning you don't actually lock them out, and they get 4ish seconds more unrestricted cast time.

 

elmiraman