Saburo

I agree 100%, though not with using the neck exactly. In the current state of arms, and the large increase in control and escape mechanisms that almost all classes have, Blizzard would have to scale warrior damage soo much that I have a hard time seeing it as anything more then a dice roll when you do get that dps time. In current WoW, mace stun, despite if you hate it or not, plays a significant part it a warriors mobility. The change to mace stun cannot be ignored, in terms of its utility, not just substituting in more damage.

The change toughness is a good start, but a long way from fixing things. It seems that Blizzard has scrapped the bloodbath and shield disarm abilities for now (correct me if I am wrong) and possibly working on something else. I would like to see something similar the rogue talent hunger for blood. Possibly remove and enrage effect to break a cc of some kind, be it a slow, roots, poly, (can be changed to whatever) while removing an enrage. This would give warrior more strategic decisions to make about damage/control. Obviously it would need tuning to make sure it wasn't crazy op, but with significant changes to either GCD or mobility (without giving up piercing howl), I don't see how they can make arena play balance AND skill based.

Bladestorm could be a nice idea, but is soo far away from what it needs to be it dosn't look like Blizzard will get there any time soon (eg. 1.5 sec per ww to 1 sec per ww). The almost total loss of control of ones character, is just not an acceptable loss against targets with 5 second hamstrings. Not to mention classes like mages that can blink, druids that can travel form, hunters that can now disengage, shaman that can ghost wolf, locks that can port themselves, rogues that can sprint, and DK's and Pallys with 15% runspeed and toughness. I am beginning to think the only appropriate target would be a priest.

As for the current build, with its concussion blow that does 75% of ap, I have a hard time seeing myself specing anything but 50/0/21, for increased control at the expense of cruelty.

 

• LodeRunner

I'm leaning towards 37/11/23 myself. You're going to want the extra two points in Prot past Conc blow for a ranged silence. One of the larger problems with Bladestorm, as I see it, is the potential downsides of using it. Frankly, I think 6 seconds is probably too long. I would be quite happy with a 3 second duration and a much shorter cooldown. A minute and a half is a long time in an arena. A lot can happen in that time. Couple this with the things other people mentioned, like your hamstring or MS falling off in the middle of your Bladestorm and you spinning around like an idiot powerless to do anything about it except canceling.

Bladestorm is really fun. It's what those of us who played Diablo 2 have wanted since day 1 of our Warrior experience. However, just like an Endless Rage spec is not very desirable in Arena setting compared to hybrid counterpart specs, I have a hard time seeing the current Bladestorm used in anything but AV weekend. There's just too much good stuff in the other trees that you give up by going deep Arms.

 

Lithose

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...12153122411051

For PvP in the wrath, if things stay how they are, most likely I will at least try this spec. As far as I know, and I'm not sure on this, Titans+Shield doesn't have a hit penalty associated with it. So, I would use a two hander+shield full time, since shield slam and BT are unlinked, I went protection. This lets my shield slam scale extremely well with arena gear, better than BT scales, even, with strength.

This, in addition to the extra rage from flurry/Intensify and the fact that BT/WW will be reduced by 5 and shield slam is naturally 20, I think that quick succession instants might be sustainable, even if not, BT/Shield slam in succession seems like an extremely effective instant string, both will hit very very hard given scaling and you get a self heal/dispel from the combo.

However, mobility will be the largest concern, I'm not sure if heroic leap can make up for the lack of improved intercept, even given the 50% snare reduction. The build does, however, look interesting and now very possible with the ability to get the exceptional scaling capacity of shield mastery.

Also, it would benefit from being "shielded" all the time without losing a ton of damage out *and* it would have the excellent regen capabilities of BT/Blood craze...Again, though, this is depending on if they changed anything with how titans interacts with a shield.

 

Talgog

Can someone in beta confirm/deny that you only have to deal with the base to-miss chance when using a 2H and a shield through Titan's Grip?

 

levk

Anybody in beta tried offhanding a [Ravager] yet?

 

• LodeRunner

I have grabbed a 2nd one for Dual Wielding and I have mainhanded my beloved [Earthshaker] while offhanding the Ravager. It's purely for comedy anyway since Ravager proc is terrible for PvP.

 

Zerai

Well, Titan's grip got hurt pretty bad. +15% miss on abilities like hamstring is brutal. Especially given the hit rating on pvp gear up til now. Are they going to have 2 sets for us like they do for casters? And having to gem for it will hurt the overall damage of the build.

However, the Prot changes are really making this tree pretty amazing. Group spell reflect? Yes please. Though, without an MS effect, it's going to end up in really long games for arena.

 

rayijin

Edit: I misread this post. TG now gives you -hit on specials.

 

Malcophant

The miss chance is actually yellow attacks only, it doesn't affect white swings.

"Allows you to equip two-handed axes, maces, and swords in one hand. Also reduces your chance to hit with melee abilities that require a weapon by 15%."

 

Zerai

Thinking something like this for a prot build. Hate not maxing out cruelty, but I couldn't see what to drop otherwise. Protection just has so many good talents now. Especially with everything bundled.

Though I still want to play fury, it remains to be seen how the TG nerf will affect it. People are saying that bloodthirst is affected by the 15% miss, though it shouldn't be. I just got in beta so I'll have to try it out. Also some blue mentioned that this recent build was like a halfway point in their changes, and some of the nerfs have been scaled back internally. Can always hope that the TG change won't be so drastic.

 

• LodeRunner

That would explain the high amount of misses I was getting while grinding on beta last night. I was frequently missing Slams, Whirlwinds, Hamstrings, Victory Rushes, and Bloodthirsts. I thought it was some freakish streak from leveling up and not having my weapon skill maxed yet. It's good to know I'm not going crazy.

To those who were thinking Fury would be a serious competitive arena spec: come on. You know how important Imp Intercept and Second Wind are, among other things. Heroic Leap in its current inception is in no way a replacement for Imp Intercept. This recent change only reinforces what I'm saying, as you'll need 20% hit rating just to be at the specials cap. You'd have to sacrifice a lot of other stats to attain that.

 

Angeron

Hopefully the 3.0 patch features a much more streamlined Arms tree, as it is I can't see spending less than 53 points in arms because there are so many damned fine talents to pick up. Unfortunately, this does mean sacrificing piercing howl until WOTLK actually comes out, but I don't see that being such an enormous issue considering the incredible base resist rate it currently sports. And yes I do see bladestorm as being basically the new sweeping strikes+whirlwind in whatever bracket. GOODLUCK KEEPING YOUR PET UP MR. WARLOCK!

Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.

 

Mearis

If you play with a shaman, you have the best name ever for a warrior.

 

Zerai

Friend of mine is a warrior in beta, was dueling another friend who is a disc priest. TG build was the only build that allowed him to break through the shield and actually attack. Arms just didn't provide enough dps. Maybe it needs to be balanced more but something that simple means a dru/war 2v2 would fail just on that merit alone. Say you fight rog/priest. What are you going to kill? Both the rogue and the priest can be shielded, and if you can't get through it before weakened soul drops, what then? Combined with the priest getting mana back from the shield more than the shield cost to cast..and you have the priest not running out of mana.

Fury build currently has more burst. With this 15% miss, it hurts, but we'll see how it works out. Burst is what kills people.

The primary problem so far with fury builds is:

- Furious Attacks are not reliable. In fact, they are flat out bad. Tests were done on a target dummy, and they fell off, even with 0% misses/dodges/parries and it can't be kept up. On top of that, any attack on a shield (priest, ice barrier, whatever) that absorbs the attack has 0% chance to proc it. That's much worse than wound poison.

Also:

- Yes, mobility is worse. Heroic Leap isn't a match for imp intercept, but it's still not bad. Some of the guys on the wotlk warrior thread in the class discussion forum found that it was like 10-15% worse mobility over the course of a fight. However, damage from heroic leap can lead to bigger burst spurts.

- Second wind isn't as big a deal. With 2 2H, rage generation will be more than 1 2h, Imp beserker rage as well and bloodthirst is better consistent healing than second wind. Given that secondary points might be going into prot for the imp shield reflect, blood craze in fury is now also 6% health, which a lot of arms warriors won't have.

- I'll definitely miss imp hamstring.

However. Things you do get with Fury:

- Better fear protection with Intensify Rage. Also important given that arms warriors will spend a lot of time in battle stance. Also needed given the loss of deathwish fear break.

- Deathwish burst.

- Disarm protection.

Also, from Ghostcrawler:

So at least you don't have the problems with hamstring missing. Hopefully they fix the issue with it affecting bloodthirst.

 

Angeron

That quote tells me they're just going to nerf titan's grip even more and frankly, I'm more interested in knowing how easy it is to keep up the white-hit MS proc in the fury tree than anything else. And yeah, priest rogue? That's why you go arms so you can have 900000000 overpowers per minute, since you know, they added all of those 'lots of overpowers per minute' talents specifically to counter rogue asshattery.

Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.

 

Zerai

The simple fact that it doesn't proc through shields is what is going to kill it unless they change it.

Not having reliable MS effect on priests, mages, or teams with priests...makes it a problem.

 

Angeron

Anyone on the new PTR been able to do any dueling as either spec yet? Would give us at least some base experiences to reflect upon.

Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.

 

Yaha

It's odd seeing all the dissatisfaction over Bladestorm & Arms, but I assume most of you are looking at this through the prism of 2v2 with a Healer. Fury indeed looks like the higher DPS and thus better tree if you like to wear out your opponent's resources over time.

Gotta say though, for oddball Warrior 2v2s (off-spec healer, Warlock, etc.) this is a godsend. We look at Bladestorm mostly as a second trinket that will give the Warrior quick DR immunity on roots when we want it. If, as I hope, it leaves the Warrior full of rage after 6 secs of contact, Bladestorm will be a fantastic momentum-turner. Just when a mage/rogue team thinks the Warrior is safely sheeped, I'll bear up and stay close while the rogue and mage pet get a faceful.

Bladestorm looks like a nice combo in the larger brackets when combined with aoe snares (mage, destro-lock, hunter).

 

madpeon

I believe Bladestorm was fixed so you do not autoattack while it is active, and you gain no rage from the Whirlwind hits.

Also, it doesn't break existing CC effects.

 

Zerai

The problem with Bladestorm is the kite-ability nature of it. You turn it on and chase people. So yeah, it's a second trinket, but that implies you're clicking it off after enabling it. It just seems stupid to have this 51 point talent that you click off just to break a root.

It just seems...clunky. I like the theory, just not the implementation.

Not breaking current CC seems like a bug.

 

Theldon

Blizzard recently made some interesting changes to the talent trees. Such as moving Tactical Mastery back to Arms, which makes it possible to create a 41/30 Endless Rage/Flurry combo. Getting the new and improved toughness doesn't look very appealing anymore as its so deep in the protection tree that having to get filler talents just to unlock it doesn't seem worthwhile. I think if they swapped toughness with shield specialization it will create a situation of picking flurry over toughness. Or maybe getting both but having to give up Endless Rage. Any thoughts?

On a side note, are most warriors sticking with maces since the stun removal? The 15% armor ignore seems quite good, but I haven't had a chance to log onto PTR to see if its worth taking over sword spec.

 

Angeron

Yeah, sudden death beats the snot out of flurry for any situation to be honest. Running 40% crit rate, even after resil you have an approximately 10% chance to use your execute ability whenever you want, if you crit hamstring a druid at 40% hps with a full rage bar, that is a dead druid guaranteed.

Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.

 

Liar

That is probably also the reason why Hamstring does no damage anymore. :P

EDIT: I have to admit, Rend --> HfB proc --> Overpower Crit --> Sudden Death proc --> Execute does look nice though. But it's going to rely on RNG once again which I thought we were done with when they nerfed Macestuns.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Lithose

Good thing for druids hamstring doesn't do damage anymore .

Its really actually a pretty poor talent for PvP..For PvE with ER, it might actually be decent, depending on how the new improved MS (Which looks nice.) scales in comparison. In PvP though, with only MS/WW/White procing it *and* the fact that you will be at 0 rage, makes it undesirable.

Hell, I don't even execute now until 10%, just because an execute that doesn't kill can lose a game due to rage starvation after (3% priest after execute, shield...then they go to full.)

 

• LodeRunner

Filler talents? Almost everything early in the Prot tree is astonishingly useful. 23 points in Prot will add amazing utility to Warrior PvP in Arenas, from damage output burst to increased longevity. Mid tier Fury and upper tier Arms are lackluster at the moment so the choice of running an Arms/Prot build seems pretty clear-cut to me.