mdokane

I think he's referring to the fact that you get out of tier 2 prot with 2/5 anticipation and 3/3 imp thunderclap now that TM is in arms, which is filler no matter how you slice it. But gag order, imp spell reflect, last stand, conc blow and to a lesser extent new toughness do have more than enough utility to make up for it. I can see 41/7/23 being a fantastic 2v2 and 3v3 spec and 41/30/0 being the 5v5 high output spec, both of which I am extremely excited for.

 

Lithose

The only real hindrance to this is the lack of disarm protection. Its really going to be the deciding factor for me since 3 classes can now disarm at will for 10 seconds. I suppose I can give up the enchants on my weapon for a weapon chain, but if I weigh that in with Imp spell, Tough, Last stand, Imp Disarm, Conc, Gag VS Enchant, death wish, flurry, -2% dodge, piercing howl, blood craze....The winner for me is fury..Mostly however thats because Pierce is such a massive talent that borders on nigh required for any bracket.

Really though, what does it say about lowers arms that 33 arms/XX or 41 arms/XX are the "serious" specs so far? I mean, no warrior I know is even considering going lower in the tree.

 

Nethris

It says that attaching the CC immunity warriors have been wanting to something that keeps us from using intercept or hamstring (or anything other than the ability itself) is a very bad gimmick for a 51 point talent - the talent points to get down to Bladestorm are ok, but not spec defining - and those last 10 points spent elsewhere give you either conc blow and utility of prot while still having points in early fury, or deathwish and flurry... and those ARE spec defining quality talents. Now if they replaced Bladestorm with "Big Red Warrior," they'd lose some flavor, but would actually have a very powerful talent. Could even give us Big Red Warrior with no damage boost, and Bladestorm as a seperate 51 pt talent without the CC immunity, and be an improvement. Short of such a similar major overhaul to Bladestorm, I really don't see the last 10 points in arms being able to hold their own vs the other options.

 

• LodeRunner

That's because currently they don't. Bladestorm just isn't attractive past the "hey that looks like fun on AV weekend" factor. I would have no dilemma with having a weapon chain on my arena weapon and going Arms/Prot. Everyone remembers the old 31/5/15, right? Well it's back, in PvP form.

Also, Lithose, you can do a 37/11/23 spec for Piercing Howl. I'm currently wavering between the thought of that versus an Endless Rage spec.

 

Yaha

[from mmo-champion.com]
Not entirely sure what was changed there: does it now allow auto-attacks?

 

Mode

Yes.

 

Nethris

Clearly, what Bladestorm needed was more burst if someone happened to not be able to get away from you ><
Not that 8 attacks or so over 6 seconds is bad, but needing the rest of your group to be able to keep the person from moving for your 51 point talent to be useful still seems strange... hopefully they decide it still needs another buff, being able to use hamstring and intercept during it would be huge.

With the new changes though, what are people's thoughts on 43/28 with the new haste on blood frenzy? Would be interesting to know how/if it stacks with flurry... not that it seems likely to be a major change in how the spec plays.

 

Zerai

It says "MS, then use the remainder of my points".

 

Copper

I've tried several specs for PvP and being a bit of a scrub I'm quite torn between going deep into Arms for Endless rage and Tactical Mastery. I havn't broken the 1700 hump this season yet so I'm using Stormherald. I have S2 Sword and Mace. The only way I can imagine using the sword spec is if I gave up Tactical Mastery and put 3 points in flurry. Being as I'm hardly ever the one being burned down (usually 2's with a shaman) I'm tempted on going endless rage. Opinions?

 

Liar

You could go ER spec with TM and still pickup 2/5 Enrage. I don't have much Warrior/Shaman experience but I ran something like this when we did a few games. I'd suggest you also stick with the Mace even if Sword Spec plus Windfury can create some nasty bursts.

If you decide to go with this spec, try to avoid one on ones with 5/5 Enrage specced Warriors since they will outdamage you in the longterm but I guess Shaman/Warrior goes for healers anymore or a quick burst kill on Warriors where Enrage is not going to help them.

PS: Take this with a grain of salt. I have been ER for as long as I can remember in 2vs2 and 3vs3 so I am biased. I'd say it's mostly about playstyle preference than anything (just like how some people swear on 3/3 TM and some say it's a crutch) but just letting you know.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

Xiras

Hi folks,
I have a question regarding hitrating on the pvp gear etc. I know when S4 came, the amount of hitrating on gear went up, and its now easier to reach the hitcap. This is what made me choose the relentless metagem (12 agi/+3% crit dmg) over the swift skyfire diamond (24 ap/+runspeed), and boar's speed over surefooted.
Now I still see a lot of s4 warriors with the swift skyfire diamond meta and surefooted enchant, and it makes me wonder why. They're usually at 8/9% hitrating, whille 5% should do the trick.

Now I know against classes like hunters, druids with that shot of them (forgot the name of it), and insect swarm etc, reduce your hitrating, but is it really worth it to 'overcap' your hitrating for it?

Basically, I'd like some feedback in this matter, to get to a decision wether I should change my meta/boot-enchant or not.

here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory


Thanks in advance.

 

kralizec

What you can obtain from your boot enchant+meta are two particular things : snare resistance and improve running speed. Hit rating can come from other sources, as you stated.
Improve running speed effects do not stack, so it's either boar or swift skyfire. As a second effect I would value snare/root resistance more than +3% dmg on crit.

 

Zerai

The only switch I was considering for my meta/boot enchant was boar's/cat speed and the Enigmatic Skyfire diamond (12 crit rating and the 5% surefooted).

I got surefooted enchant for the 5% resist, not the hit rating. The hit rating was a bonus.

I just haven't gotten around to switching it. But I did notice that there is a lot of people who are still using the surefooted/swift skyfire.

 

• Ren

Update 2: Added color coding
Excel V3

Update: new version is up with scaling to level 80; remember to double your target's resilience to get an accurate picture.

I spent a couple hours making a spreadsheet about 3.0 weapon choices. Long story short, Axe Spec is the way to go (at least for me in 5s). Maces become better than axes at roughly 10k debuffed armor; 7.5k at capped resilience. Sword Spec isn't a terrible option, but it lags behind Axe Spec in every situation. I modeled Sword Spec assuming a very generous 30 used globals per minute.

This sheet simulates five auto attacks and as many Mortal Strikes as can be fit into a 18-second window. I accounted for the new 3.0 talent tree, rolling deep wounds, and variable target resilience. Flurry is not modeled: this is not an actual DPS spreadsheet, it's really just to serve as a basis of comparison between the sustained damage of different weapon specs. Let me know if anything needs to be changed.

Rough Armor Values (from Rakeash)
The important number here is the debuffed value, which is 5x Sunders and Executioner (avg).

Executioner: 1.3 PPM, 32.5% uptime, 273 avg ArP
Caster/Druid (Caster)/Rogue: 4200, 1139 debuffed, 940 w/ mace
Hunter: 7390, 3876 debuffed, 3198 w/ mace
Warrior (2H): 11700, 7574 debuffed, 6250 w/ mace
Shaman (Shield): 14500, 9977 debuffed, 8233 w/ mace
Druid (Bear): 16800, 11951 debuffed, 9862 w/ mace
Paladin (Shield): 18600, 13495 debuffed, 11136 w/ mace

Here's a sample of the math for Axe Spec:

Armor & 2H Spec
=(1-Armor/(Armor*467.5*70-22167.5)*
(1+(2HSpec*2/100))*

5x Auto Attacks
((5*(WDPS*WSpeed+WSpeed*AP/14)*
((1-Crit%-AxeCrit%+Resil/39.4*100)+
(1-Resil/39.4*200)*(Crit%+AxeCrit%-Resil/39.4*100)*2.05*1.03))+

Mortal Strikes
((3+ImpMS/5)*(1+ImpMS/30)*(WDPS*WSpeed+AP*3.3/14)*
((1-Crit%-AxeCrit%-Resil/39.4*100)+
(1-Resil/39.4*200)*(Crit%+AxeCrit%-Resil/39.4*100)*2.25*1.03))))+

Deep Wounds
(1+2HSpec*2/100)*
(DWounds*(Crit%+AxeCrit%-Resil/39.4*100)*
DWoundDmg*3*(WDPS*WSpeed+WSpeed*AP/14))*(1-Resil/39.4*100)

 

Zerai

Nice results. However, those armor values are level 70? So the modeled numbers you have are for level 70?

I'm particularly interested in the comparison since I'm a dwarf and get the innate 5 expertise for maces come wotlk. So trying to decide if I want to stick with maces or move to axes for a level 80 build.

 

Liar

Just going by the armor values, these seem to indicate level 70 opponents, hence level 70 numbers. (I have around 11.5k armor on live without a shield so that sounds about right.)

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

• Ren

Yes the numbers are for the 3.0 patch. I'm currently working on scaling it up for level 80.

Edit: New version is up.

 

Saburo

Thanks for that, gives me a good idea where we stand. Although I could see the numbers significantly change with other talents included (deep wounds is already included to my knowledge), such as: Trauma, Blood Frenzy, Sudden Death, Wrecking Crew, and/or Flurry. On the other hand certain classes have penalties for criting: Natural Perfection, Eye for an Eye, Focused Will, Blessed Resilience, and Blood Craze. However, just from eyeballing it, it would seem that any deep arms warrior would be befitted more then hindered from critting even on the selected classes.

Also, as a point of reference, in worst case scenario at 70, the difference on a non-debuffed max resil pally with shield between axe and mace seems to be ~7.8% according to the spreadsheet. Factor in all the warrior talents that benefit from crit and i would expect this gap to be alot smaller if not shift over the axe. I would love to see someone try and do the math as I am a little busy atm and the math looks tricky depending on spec, such as getting an accurate model of Sudden Death. Also, I don't know if anyone has bothered yet but a formula for wrecking crew uptime would be interesting (I haven't tested specific mechanics myself).

 

Zerai

Given the values of hateful, I'd expect a warrior at 80 in arenas to have something like 16k armor. And a rogue to have around 7k.

So it seems like Axe definitely stays on top. Bear druid and paladin being the only ones above the line (after debuffing), maybe shamans as well (with shield of course). Warrior is just below the line though.

 

Theldon

Great spreadsheet, but how do you account for the extra attack of sword specialization in your formula? I may be a bit blind but I can't seem to see in your damage calculation.

 

• Ren

Sword spec is very roughly modeled as 14% more white damage.

=(1-B17)*(1+C$13/50)*((5*1.14*(C$5*C$6+C$7*C$6/14)*((1-C$8+C$4/D$3)+(1-C$4/D$3*2)*(C$8-C$4/D$3)*C$10))+((3+C$14/5)*(1+C$14/30)*(C$5*C$6+C$7*3.3/14)*((1-C$8-C$4/D$3)+(1-C$4/D$3*2)*(C$8-C$4/D$3)*C$11)))+(1+C$13/50)*(C$12*(C$8-C$4/D$3)*1.44*(C$5*C$6+C$7*C$6/14))*(1-C$4/D$3)

 

Tigs

To me it seems Swords are the clear choice, regardless of overall damage output. Higher burst potential is going to be superior to higher sustained damage almost 100% of the time. The basic idea, in most matches, is to force cooldowns by making the opposing healers/your target panic. Spiky HP bars accomplish this.

It's the "Windfury Effect", really. When people complain about Shaman/Warrior, they usually complain about how bursty the damage is, and how hard it is to heal through. Thus, they must adapt their playstyle to accommodate this. This could mean any number of things, but it always means less mana efficiency over time.

To summarize, I'd rather have this occasionally:

100% => 45%, 2-3 seconds

Than this consistently:

100% => 70% => 40%, 7-8 seconds

^ Obviously made up numbers, but you get the point.

 

Prosiddon

Ever since I stopped playing my paladin and quit wow near the end of s3 I have been planning on rerolling as an alli warrior in wotlk, my original plan was to reroll as a human for perception but with the perception nerf they seem to have some serious competition in the pvp racial department.

Humans still have their 5 expertise with swords, which are shaping up to be the best weapon type, and they did gain the innate pvp trinket with a 2 minute cd. Whether or not most warriors will use a battlemaster's trinket in the 2nd trinket slot, this racial will allow you to gain a non-trivial boost in the burst damage department, albeit at the cost of 80~ resilience, by using an offensive-themed on-use trinket (or even two if you forgo battlemaster's). If you have access to the best pve gear this could be a damned sizable advantage. If you really really need the survivability off the pvp trinket, however, then the human racial begins to lose most of its pvp value, and knowing how many times my 5v5 team's warrior got bursted down that 80~ resilience could easily make or break the difference between life and death. Attempting to bandaid this resilience loss with a tanking trinket seems kind of counterproductive but could be quite effective depending on the itemization of the trinket. For instance, http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofgossamer.jpg a blue trinket obtained in heroic 5 mans, could easily outweigh the 80 resilience depending on its proc rate and innate cooldown. But it would take a pretty damned impressive trinket, such as a lifegiving gem type trinket which didn't share a cooldown with battlemaster's, to outweigh the racials that gnomes and night elves get.

Gnomes still have the 105 second cooldown instant cast escape artist which can no longer be resisted, which definitely gives them a non-trivial boost in control in all sorts of situations, and even a significant boost in survivability against frost mages. With the normalization of the range at which melee classes can attack gnome warriors have lost their biggest weakness.

Night elves now have a pseudo vanish/feign death ability since the new shadowmeld drops targets when used in combat. If your timing is good enough and/or your lat is low enough this can be used as an oh shit button to dodge attempts to be bursted down by casters. Night elves will also have a 2% greater chance to be missed by melee attacks, and anyone who has fought a mage in BC knows how annoying it is to miss a hamstring even though you have the required amount of hit for every other class. As much as I hate RNGarena, with the apparent lack of hit on the pvp sets for all classes this 2% could be quite the nuisance.

As I see it humans will always have the advantage in burst damage at the expensive of survivability, but depending on trinket itemization and the quality of PVE gear you can obtain, humans could perhaps even have the advantage in survivability. 5 Expertise on swords also helps alleviate the RNG factor.

Gnomes easily have a significant advantage versus mages and are quite solid against other classes.

Between their 2% additional chance to be missed and the new feign death mechanic on shadowmeld Night elves look like they will have the best survivability at the expense of being super annoying with the RNG factor.

I've always thought that control is what warriors lack most and boosting that would probably be the best idea but sometimes raw burst can make up for that lack of control. On the other hand the 10% increased damage taken in zerker stance is looking more problematic than ever and perhaps survivability would be best. If anyone else has any additional insight I would greatly appreciate because I still have no idea which I should roll and I'll probably start leveling on tuesday or wednesday. I am planning on mostly playing 3v3, but who knows what bracket I will end up playing the most. I should probably stop thinking about this and just roll what I think looks coolest.

 

Angeron

I still think gnomes will have the best racials as EA and trinket don't share a cooldown. Yes the new human racial is unbelievably overpowered for rogues, but outside of very strict circumstances I think losing 80 resil is going to hurt you a LOT, especially with the incredible strength of mages and ret paladins at the moment. Rogues with all of their tricks can get away with dropping 80 resil for 200ap, but a warrior cannot make that trade without facing serious pain against caster teams.

Though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours, and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable; I simply am not there.

 

Gink

Human weapon racials were nerfed from 5 expertise to 3 expertise.

Gink