Shadowed

No, just no. You should never go protection for a PvP build for the sake of CS/LS, Deathwish, Improved Intercept, Enrage, Improved shouts and depending on your build Flurry is much better

As soon as I see a protection Warrior in arenas I ignore them, the damage they do isn't enough of a threat and you can deal with them through fears without much problem.

 

Nethris

I've 2v2ed a bit as prot, obviously only with the aim of just getting points for the week, but I've done it. With a (really) well geared raiding pally and me wearing dps gear with the T2 1h hammer and a shield, we usually don't lose too many points with that setup, though the team was only something like a 1650 rating usually... that pairing is probably unique though, and relies on opponents either being dumb or being unable to kill you and the pally outlasting their healer's mana if they have one...

Especially now that I have my epic mount though, anything other than a last minute 10 game the night before maintainence will be something I respec for.

Purely for PvP, no, you shouldn't. I was that spec for a bit before we started really raiding, and it's a decent way to do 5 mans including the easier heroics and still be able to PvP - my main problem with it is that it doesn't give SS, and non-full-prot warr aggro just isn't good enough for even Kara tanking with well geared DPS, same thing for heroics really... no aggro margin at all to let you deal with more than a single mob or for mistakes/bad luck on a single target.

The one thing 35/5/21 or the like might be good for PvP wise is if you're mainly doing 2v2 with a pally and have worse gear than the pally does, there just isn't a squishier target to go after than you so upping your ability to survive is more useful, with a 5 second stun being a nice bonus short term CC ability. You're still better off getting some Halaa gear and the like to get your hp up to 10-11k and have some resilience and using a more DPS oriented spec though.

 

world

I've just been running some Arena matches with Sword Spec, and have some data that might be interesting.

First of all, it seems that both Windfury and Sword Spec can proc of themselves, and off of each other now. This used to once be the case (with sword spec anyway, as alliance at 60 didn't have windfury), but was removed a while ago.

Also, whereas getting both a Sword Spec proc AND a windfury on the same attack used to result in only 1 extra attack, it now delivers both extra attacks.

Combine this all with Sword Spec no longer resetting the swing timer (not sure about windfury and this mechanic, ill test it in the near future) and it is quite possible for your screen to fill up with numbers...

I took some screenshots of some of the more rediculous attack strings I got, and here are the logs:

[1:00:26] You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization
[1:00:26] Your Mortal Strike crits Elloren for 2785
[1:00:26] You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization
[1:00:26] You hit Elloren for 1021
[1:00:26] You hit Elloren for 1201
[1:00:26] You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization
[1:00:26] You hit Elloren for 1123
[1:00:27] You crit Elloren for 2267

So that was a mortal strike which resulted in 3 successive sword spec procs, then an autoattack, all within ~1 second.

Also:

[12:44:27] You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization
[12:44:27] You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
[12:44:27] You hit Markofthevin for 725
[12:44:27] You hit Markofthevin for 869
[12:44:27] You hit Markofthevin for 854

I'm interested to see how the potential for complete devastation through sword spec and windfury will compare against mace spec in the long run!

 

Shadowed

Well it's two different things so it's kind of hard to compare, Sword spec is more for burst where as Mace spec is more about control, but since you do get rage from Sword spec I guess you could argue it's helpful against high armored targets, or classes like Priests.

 

diotox

Wow, if that bit about sword spec really is true, then that's insane. That would easily make it superior to axe spec, however I think it's a pretty safe bet that they will patch it back to the way it used to be in terms of chain procs and procing off each other. Now I wish I had a sword to test that myself.

 

Izzle

Didn't think this deserved a thread of its own, but was wondering how this would be possible:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...vermoon&n=Raph

Season 2 Gauntlets, Shoulders, and Helm

AND

Season 2 axe.

Is anyone else seeing miscalculations for their capped points?

 

◊ Gwaihir

I think some people were able to spend their points, followed by a server restart which restored their points but did not roll back their gear.

 

sulliwan

It always has been superior to axe, especially if you're hitting anything with any resilience at all.

I picked up the season 2 sword on my warrior and I'm enjoying it very much. Even if it's not as effective as mace stuns for arena play, it's damn fun :P

 

Samurro

Can you please explain why you think sword specc is "superior" over axe specc, while hitting a target with resilence? Do you realy kill people, as a warrior, without any crits?

I agree that the sword specc buff is realy good, but at all you lose 5%crit which is a big amount in consideration of high resilence opponents. And i for my self wouldn't ever win an arena game without good timed crits.

Edit:
Realying on a 5% procc is ridiculous for me in a serious arena game above 2k ratings. And even that the procc can be prevented by simply dodge, parry or block seems not very "superior" for me.

 

sulliwan

Crits do less damage when hitting a target with resilience than normally, while the extra hit from swordspec is not affected by resilience(unless it crits obviously). Also swordspec has the added benefit of being able to proc from hamstring etc. So swordspec is more overall damage and greater burst capability than axe. It will happen just as often as the extra crit from axe spec does, both are 5%.

I don't see how relying on a 5% swordspec proc is any different from relying on the 5% extra crit you get from axes. And no, you shouldn't rely on either, you should outplay your opponents by countering their actions and creating opportunities for yourself to attack, not hope to kill anyone really really fast.

 

Samurro

Ehrm you always say 5% axe crit, i dont rely on that, i have 31% crit because 5% axe crit adds to my normal crit rating makes my crits come more often. And you didnt mention that Impale increases your crit damage by 20%, so with about 220 resilence i do with a crit same amount of damage as you do with a extra hit.

And with all that i just want to explain that sword specc isn't "superior" over anything, with the buff its maybe equal to the other speccs and the decision is made by playstyles, thats it.

 

sulliwan

Because 5% is what you gain from the talent. 26% crit and 5% chance for extra attack is exactly the same chance to do extra damage on an attack as 31% crit. Except that in the case of the extra attack, it is adding an additional multiplier, instead of increasing an already existing multiplier, and you can get both another swordspec or a crit on the proc further increasing the burst capability.
Impale only works for specials and if you look at the "Resilience mitigating 1.67 times 'intended' crit dmg reduction", you will see that resilience reduces the damage increase from impale a bit more than intended. Also most high-end opponents will have enough resilience in season 2 to completely negate the gain from impale.

 

asur2

The one thing you don't mention though sulliwan is that while its better on a normal attack to get a chance at a extra swing is it better for a special. Both MS and HS add extra damage that if you crit due to Axe spec its get multiplied while if you just get a extra swing it isn't added.

Anyone know what the proc rate on Stormheralds stun is? I'm trying to decide if its worth it to go maces if you can't get that weapon and instead use the glad mace.

 

sulliwan

This is true, it is certainly better to get a crit on a special such as HS or MS. However, it is also better to get a swordspec proc from a special such as hamstring rather than having it crit. Which of those works out to more damage in pvp probably depends on your playstyle more than anything else.

 

Talgog

Reguarding 35/5/21 build...

It basically depends on what sort of PvP you usually engage in. For a 5v5 team, you will rarely be focus-fired and will be trying to kill off a squishy on the other team (frequently one that fears), so you want Deathwish and fifteen second Intercepts. You also are presumably receiving heals, so your lesser durability isn't that much of an issue.

However, for smaller PvP - including PUG BG's - 35/5/21 is extremely powerful. Concussion Blow can force mages to blink before Intercept, allows for a very effective spell-lock cycle on healing classes (Pummel-Conc Blow-Pummel), and the spec in general dominates similar gear warriors as well as even "best" rogues.

The one thing it doesn't do well is fight really tough warlocks (the type that live through a rogue stunlock, let alone your ad hoc sequence). I would much rather have Deathwish for that.

 

Talgog

I find that people generally tend to overestimate how much additional crit % actually helps in getting what we want (chain crits). It will of course help in the long run in terms of total damage done, but PvP is hardly long run.

If you have 26% crit without axe spec and 31% with, what that basically means is you are critting five more attacks per one hundred (over enough trials to smooth it out), and have a 9.6% chance of getting back to back crits against a target with 0 res, versus a 6.7% chance with the 26% crit against the same target.

It's a nice increase (43% more likely), but it's still less than 1 in 10 you will get it, let alone critting a MS and an auto-attack as opposed to an auto-attack and a Hamstring. Something that happens less than 10% of the time is pretty tough to rely on.

Similarly, a 26% crit warrior has a 1.7% chance to triple-crit (aka mow someone down) in a row, while a 31% crit warrior has a 2.979% chance to triple crit (both on zero res target, again). In this case, the axe spec warrior is almost twice as likely to mow down a rogue or mage instantly and cause some QQ on the forum, but it will still only happen slightly less than three times out of a hundred.

People just remember the string of huge numbers they nailed someone with, and the victim remembers being blown up instantly by a auto-attack-Victory Rush-MS combo.

On a related subject, Mongoose is a silly enchant for a PvP warrior's 2H weapon, for similar reasons. If it doesn't proc, it does nothing, and if you don't get a crit during the proc, it has also done nothing. If you DO get a crit, odds are it was due to your already existing chance-to-crit, not the Goose increase.

 

Samurro

What you said about Moongoose is totaly right and i agree. But crit hits are my dmg increase in pvp, and if iam a dd its very good for me to do 100% more damage and getting higher burst on my target. And simply burst kills people. Burst is reduced by resilence, but still it's needed to win a game. I realy think Stormherald is an exeption here, the design of that weapon is just to strong! If there would be no stun chance on it, crit would be more important than anything else.

 

christide

I actually don't wear any crit gear at all in PvP.

I figure if I don't crit it was wasted, and if I did crit, it was probably due to my natural crit rate.

 

Talgog

Because 4% is clearly triple the innate 30% crit rate of a warrior who doesn't bother wearing any crit gear in PvP, right?

~

Back in the real world, the only thing Mongoose does for a PvP warrior is increase their chance to crit by 10-13% - as in up to 34% from 30% for the fifteen seconds it is active.

If the warrior is using a 3.6 speed weapon, has a 30% crit rate and has unlimited rage, he will get off 4 auto-attacks, two Mortal Strikes and two Whirlwinds in 15 seconds. 8 "damage" attacks total. Normally, he will crit two of those, as (8*.3)2.4 crits are expected, and you can't have .4 of a crit. With Mongoose active, he will again crit two of those (8*.34), with 2.72 crits expected.

Moving it one order of magnitude to eliminate the partial crits, over two and a half minutes of 15 second periods (150 seconds) with Goose up (80 damage attacks), you get 24 crits without Goose and 27 crits with Goose, a gain of three critical attacks.

However, that is 150 seconds of Goose being active, not 150 seconds of combat. Even if you give Goose 2ppm, it would be up for 75 seconds at most in 150 seconds of combat. In that case, the no-Mongoose 30% warrior still gets 24 crits, while the Mongoose warrior gets [ (40*.3) + (40*.34)] 25.6 crits.

That is distinctly underwhelming, nevermind not reliable. The other benefits of Mongoose procs - armor, dodge, 2% haste - are at best marginal for warriors in a PvP setting, with dodge bordering on a negative given what normally melees warriors face-to-face. It's much more meaningful for a warrior in a tanking or DPS setting where damage and mitigation over time matters.

Mongoose also happens to be much more significant for a certain leather wearing class that gets more attack power from a Goose proc than they would from being Level 60 with Crusader.

 

Celandro

On a different note, my personal arena experience (3v3 and 2v2) since the patch has been far better than normal. This isn't just beating teams that are only at 1500 due to the reset, this is teams who were over 2k last week who we beat 2 times in a row (we floated around 1800 last season). There were at least 3 of the 15 games we played last night where the first kill in the match was after a pvp trinket -> intercept combo that would have been impossible before the change to the new trinkets. The matchup against hunters and mages seems much improved. I know that I added 2 new pieces of gear on top of the trinket change as did everyone else on my team (hunter, priest, paladin), but still... Either we are far far better players than we were 1 week ago or the trinket change is helping our team more than others.

Are other people finding the same increase in success?

 

christide

Your comment was ludicrous in every world. If you don't value crit rating, that's fine, but your logic is horrendously flawed.

Now that we're discussing reality, no warrior has 30% crit rate except at maybe 1500 rated arenas. Looking at your profile in particular, I see that you have 27% crit. Versus a decently geared opponent you have less than 20% crit. We'll say 21% since your horrible math skews this even more heavily in the favor of mongose at 21%. 8 * .21 = 1.68, with funny math = 1 crit. 8 * .25 = 2, so twice as many crits.

Real world numbers (21%) put it at 16 crits and 20 crits. Since we're playing the funny math game, this is an increase of 25%.

25% more crits seems ok to me when PvP completely revolves around who crits who.

Ok, new funny math. Now we're looking at 16 crits vs 18 crits. 11% more crits.

No one cares about armor, dodge, or 2% haste. Sure, they're nice, but they don't mean much.

To be fair, I'm not advocating mongoose as the end all be all weapon enchant, but if you're below 35% crit rate (or 25% vs decently geared people) you need all the crit you can get and this is one of the best sources.

I'm curious, btw, why you put the crit / stam gem in your chest. By all my crit calculations using your math, it adds 0 crits, so why use it?

 

Typhon

I can confirm there is indeed definitely something going on. I was grinding ogres for consortium rep and was obtaining similar combat log readouts to the original poster. Funnily enough, I didn't notice it until now, but at times I was insta-gibbing lvl 66 mobs. (using a lionheart blade btw).

 

Kasi

Just a quick question on warrior pvp here. Been playing with my warrior lately and got myself a Felsteel reaper to play with and MS spec. (didn't want to do blacksmithing since it wasn't my main and he doesn't instance much) I was wondering how to improve my burst. Now when I charge/intercept someone the usual thing is hamstring, then WW/MS. Is there anything I can do to add some extra burst damage in there, assuming I have the rage?

I am leaning against using heroic strike since well rage can be an issue at times. Rend I tend to only use on rogues because of the vanish. Is non improved slam an option? Cleave would be fine if there are two people in range, but usually there isn't. Other issue is that WW comes up before MS because of the rage difference. But since MS has the smaller cooldown its optimal to use it first.

 

Obeliisk

That doesn't mean critting isn't still preferable to not critting. Assuming a maximum 2331 MS crit against a basic clothie (assume 11% mitigation) with no resilience and 2/2 Impale ends up being about a 1690 crit against the same clothie with 399 resilience (imo more than a reasonable test number these days) whereas your maximum non crit against the same guy would only be 1059.

Axe, sword, and mace spec are pure personal preference; one is not inherently "better" than the other two. I prefer axe because sword spec rarely procced for me when I tested it extensively during the entire month of May in both BGs and Arena; with an axe I see a noticeable increase in my amount of crits as well as frequency of "crit chains" that kill people very quickly. I never saw my sword do that.

 

subscience

Slam is viable if there's no other targets on you and Improved Slam seems wholly unnecessary. I personally used to Slam after Intercepts and I never had Improved Slam. This trick is a lot harder to pull off with a diminished 1.5s Intercept since you want to let yourself auto-attack first after the Intercept before letting off that Slam.

If you have a lot of Rage, the Slam + MS + HS is insane burst.


Edit- Plus that *CLUNK!* sound from Slam is very satisfying.