[Hunter] Duelling Warriors

Midnight · 04/19/07, 8:30 AM

Lately I´ve been having some duelling tries agains a friend of mine with his warrior and I didn´t seem to be able to beat him. Got him kind of close once with a lot of procluck but never beat him. I´m a 0/48/13 MM Hunter with full entrapment.

Our duels started off with me trapping him in a Freezing Trap (he didn´t even bother to avoid it) than I got to range and placed a Frost Trap (made sure cooldown was ready before starting the duel) before opening up on him again. I usually didn´t bother with Aimed Shot as Steady Shot + Auto Shot do more damage for less mana in a shorter amount of time. I get off another Multi and possibly a Serpent Sting before he intercepts me. He immediatly Hamstrings and beats on me.
In the seconds that follow he´s always been able to kill me faster than I could kill him. He used Hamstring, Piercing Howl (if I manage to get out of Hamstring range), Fear and Intercept whenever it´s ready to stay at me while I tried to keep him at range with Wing Clip (talented), PvP Trinket, Scatter Shot and my Frost Trap.
I might have been able to manage Hamstring alone, but with the addition of Piercing Howl which works at 10 yd range I didn´t seem to be able to kite him efficiently with my Frost Trap even with entrapment.

Should I even bother trying to kite him with a Frost Trap if he´s got Piercing Howl? Should I apply Scoprid Sting over Serpent? What other hints (beside specing BM) can you Hunters out there give me to beat a Warrior?

On a sidenote: I didn´t try duels against Rogues, but from my experiences with them in Arenas and BGs their new ability to slow me at range seems to make a very, very tough opponent for Hunters in 1vs1 too.

archz0r · 04/19/07, 8:33 AM

Use your freezing trap more than once might be a good idea. Was a while since I played my warrior so I'm not 100% up to date on what hunters do to you, pre TBC I sat in their freezing trap 50% of the fight atleast.

Edit: This post is probably better off in the Class Mechanics Forum.

Faerun · 04/19/07, 9:07 AM

1) You probably shoudln't be making sure your trap CD is up for the beginning of the duel, seeing as how that's 0 practice for yourself...
2) Aimed shot does more damage than Steady Shot, so if he's sitting in a trap & there's mor ethan 3s on it you should be using that.
3) I'd freeze trap twice in a row, get both of his charges down, & next time he's on you scatter + trinket. Honestly, he shoudl be dead by the 3rd freeze trap. GL

Midnight · 04/19/07, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Faerun

1) You probably shoudln't be making sure your trap CD is up for the beginning of the duel, seeing as how that's 0 practice for yourself...
2) Aimed shot does more damage than Steady Shot, so if he's sitting in a trap & there's mor ethan 3s on it you should be using that.
3) I'd freeze trap twice in a row, get both of his charges down, & next time he's on you scatter + trinket. Honestly, he shoudl be dead by the 3rd freeze trap. GL

1) I can start trying to beat him trap CD not beeing up after I can beat him with my traps ready. I don´t think I should make the fight even harder if I don´t manage to win as it is.
2) Of course Aimed Shot causes more damage than Steady Shot but you can´t really compare Aimed with Steady because Aimed resets Auto and Steady does not. From a pure theorycraft point of view Steady + Auto surpasses the damage of Aimed at a certain amount of RAP while beeing cheaper and taking only 1.5 seconds to cast. Only Problem beeing the 0.5 seconds between Steady and Auto.
3) The problem with multiple Freezing Traps as I see it is, that even the first one only stays for 12 seconds. All following traps are subject to DR and stay even shorter. In my experience I could hardly even get in range when after Intercept Stun let alone deal damage before the trap is gone. I tried this tactic in my first few duels and I might try it again, but it´s not really as helpful as it used to be when traps could potentially freeze opponents for up to 20 seconds. Besides - if I followed your advice and tried without trap CD up this wouldn´t be an option at all.

Don´t get me wrong, I really appreciate your advice, but this always sounds so easy in theory and rarely works in practice.

Shaile · 04/19/07, 10:22 AM

you dont really win over a good warrior or rogue anymore as hunter. i as bm win every 2 min, then loose pretty much all the time.
the buffs those classes has recieved against us and the nerf we gotten made it very very hard to win against a GOOD player who know what to do.

Randor · 04/19/07, 11:10 AM

It also depends on his gear and spec.

Twid · 04/19/07, 11:38 AM

I took a look at your armory, and though it's probably not your dueling setup, make sure you've got your insignia of the alliance on. When you wing clip him and he hamstrings you, and all of your tricks are on cooldown, that trinket is one more way to get range on him.

You might also want to look into selectively using silencing shot. I'd have to double check this in game, but I know battle/commanding shout cannot be used while silenced, as well as thunderclap. When he's already intercepted you, his next move will likely be to fear you. If you're mashing silencing shot as you try to get range, you may be able to prevent the intimidating shout. It's a gamble though, and depends on his reflexes.

alienangel · 04/19/07, 11:45 AM

Yes steady + auto are equal or more damage for less mana than Aimed, however getting a single aimed crit is more likely (exponentially more likely?) than getting both an autoshot and a steadyshot crit back to back.

Warriors are annoying to fight and I'm no PvP guru though. I know that if you never let them get into intercept range they can't win unless they're smart at using grenades - but it's hard to maintain range like that in a duel. I've had some very weird duels where I end up trying to deadzone the warrior, staying too far for melee but too close for intercept, waiting for a trap to cooldown - but the lack of a good snare makes this apparently not very useful (fun though!).

Remf · 04/19/07, 11:58 AM

Are you using a pet? If not, consider a pig for the charge stun perhaps. Crippling poison from a snake trap is always nice, longer duration than clip and does dot dmg (tho you will probably want to save your trap timer for ice...) You might also try loading up on +crit/RAP gear instead of +Agi, to reduce your avoidance as much as possible. Lighting him up with a good combo after you freeze him is a solid technique; for a duel you really don't need to worry about mana often. After his charges are used up, conc shot can be used to help keep him at range. Picking a good place to duel can also help a lot, depending on your playstyle.

Just some thoughts.

RdT.

Midnight · 04/19/07, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Shaile

you dont really win over a good warrior or rogue anymore as hunter. i as bm win every 2 min, then loose pretty much all the time.
the buffs those classes has recieved against us and the nerf we gotten made it very very hard to win against a GOOD player who know what to do.

That was my impression after the duels - the warrior didn´t have any ideas what I could change either, nor did another PvPing Hunter on my realm I asked. He specifically told me that unless I was BM I only had a slim chance if I landed a good string of crits.
Nevertheless I see it as a challange to try and make the best out of it, that´s why I´m trying to collect some tricks and tactics to at least improve my chances.

Originally Posted by Randor

It also depends on his gear and spec.

We´re both in the same Guild and Raid so our stuff is pretty much equal, I do have a bit more PvP oriente stuff I guess, but the overall quality diffrence isn´t very big.

Originally Posted by Twid

I took a look at your armory, and though it's probably not your dueling setup, make sure you've got your insignia of the alliance on. When you wing clip him and he hamstrings you, and all of your tricks are on cooldown, that trinket is one more way to get range on him.

You might also want to look into selectively using silencing shot. I'd have to double check this in game, but I know battle/commanding shout cannot be used while silenced, as well as thunderclap. When he's already intercepted you, his next move will likely be to fear you. If you're mashing silencing shot as you try to get range, you may be able to prevent the intimidating shout. It's a gamble though, and depends on his reflexes.

Yes indeed this is my pure PvE equipment I´m wearing in the armory. I´ve got 4/5 arena set armor parts (last one following next week

), epic PvP belt, the new 2 min CD trinket with extra resillience and some other more hp/resillience oriented gear.

I´ll try that silencing shot trick, though I think he used his fear when entrapment proced not right after his intercept.

Originally Posted by alienangel

Yes steady + auto are equal or more damage for less mana than Aimed, however getting a single aimed crit is more likely (exponentially more likely?) than getting both an autoshot and a steadyshot crit back to back.

Warriors are annoying to fight and I'm no PvP guru though. I know that if you never let them get into intercept range they can't win unless they're smart at using grenades - but it's hard to maintain range like that in a duel. I've had some very weird duels where I end up trying to deadzone the warrior, staying too far for melee but too close for intercept, waiting for a trap to cooldown - but the lack of a good snare makes this apparently not very useful (fun though!).

Even a single crit plus a normal hit combined almost deal as much damage as an aimed crit and are more likely to happen than a single aimed crit, so from a pure damage point of view i´m not really convinced aimed shot is first choice. Also taking twice as long to channel increases the chance the trap breaks before I get to shoot and end up intercepted before I´ve done even a single point of damage. The only thing I see that favors aimed shot is the lack of the 0.5 sec delay between steady and auto.
Regarding the staying out of intercept range - this might be possible in open PvP where I can run away in one direction, but at least for me so far it´s been completely impossible with the range restrictions of a duel even if I had all the room I needed to run away. Maybe I´m just lacking the personal skill, but I don´t think it´s possible in a duel.

Optimized · 04/19/07, 12:21 PM

I have found against an arms warrior the chance is extremely small, fury is also small but you at least have a bit more time. One tip I can give you is to shadowmeld before the match and get him in combat before he can charge making him either blow intercept or run at you.

Rogues are also really tough if they know to Cloak of Shadows right before engaging to eat your trap. Coupled with Shiv and blind (used once you start to get a little distance usually after your scattershot) it is very difficult to get range. It's frustrating that one of our easier matchups is now one of the hardest. As others have said I think the Beast Within snare immunity greatly helps against melee classes.

alienangel · 04/19/07, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight

Even a single crit plus a normal hit combined almost deal as much damage as an aimed crit and are more likely to happen than a single aimed crit, so from a pure damage point of view i´m not really convinced aimed shot is first choice. Also taking twice as long to channel increases the chance the trap breaks before I get to shoot and end up intercepted before I´ve done even a single point of damage. The only thing I see that favors aimed shot is the lack of the 0.5 sec delay between steady and auto.

K, I decided to math it out to see.

Suppose you have a 23% crit chance, 2300 RAP and the Gladiator Xbow, RWS, FF, and Humanoid Slaying, with 32 dps ammor.

Hit and crit values:

        Aimed   Steady  Auto	
Hit     1810.20 895.54  949.55	
Crit    4272.08 2113.48 2240.93

Since your autoshots crit for more with that set up, the ideal 1hit + 1 crit combat is auto crit + steady hit, for a total of: 2240 + 895 = 3135 damage. Over 1100 damage short of a single aimed crit, and only possible at a 17% likelihood.

However, things get more interesting if you factor in all the possible ways the two openers could combine crits and hits:

Working out all the possibilities, the expected damage from the openers are:

Aimed Shot:     0.23 x 4272 + 0.77 x 1810 = 2393
Steady + Auto:  0.23 x 0.77 x (895 + 2240) + 0.77 x 0.23 x (2113 + 949) + 0.23 x 0.23 x (2113 + 2240) + 0.77 x 0.77 x (895 + 949) = 2421

So assuming I did my expectation math right, the steady + auto opener will in fact average 28 damage more, for less mana and cast time than Aimed.

If it's not a duel and you have Rapid Killing up though, Aimed likely wins easily :P

edit: whoops, the numbers above are without slaying properly accounted for. Slighty off >.>

AndrewCarr · 04/19/07, 1:52 PM

A lot can, imo, depend on your latency. Bad latency can effectively reduce your range, allowing warriors to easily get a charge off. And if they don't get one off and you're kiting them well, they will double back so you have to chase them, then suddenly turn around. And due to server lag, they'll usually catch you in a charge/intercept right as you get into 41 yard range on your client. However, you can use this to your advantage since you know what their plan will be. This lets you trap appropriately and plan ahead. For example, you can follow them for a bit just out of range and let things come off cd(2min pvp trinket for example, traps, scattershot, etc.), and then attack.

Often, as marks, I find myself a goner if I let a warrior get into melee range with me. Chaining freezing traps can win it for you in most situations, especially with the beast lord set bonus(if you have it), but if any one of the 2-3 traps resist, you're usually toast without a PvP trinket. And since a resist is likely(from my experience) it's sometimes better to start with him in a frost trap(entrapment procs and guranteed to work), and then use a freezing trap. This will let you get damage in, then the freezing trap will let you get to range again without a PvP trinket if it works, and if it doesn't, then you have your trinket. Then next time he gets a charge/intercept off you can trinket out of it(if your trap worked), scatter shot him, and lay another trap once you get back to range.

Kaelvanas · 04/19/07, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Remf

Crippling poison from a snake trap is always nice, longer duration than clip and does dot dmg

Oo, snake trap - nice. I'd forgotten the crippling proc being a near-guaranteed effect, rather than entrapment.

While it depends on the type, skill, and gearing of the warrior, you might consider deep survival, and don't be afraid to melee him. Double deterrence, and double traps immolation (or snake, now that I read that!

), combined with faster traps and less incoming damage means that you stand more chance. You also have more melee moves (*ahem* counterattack) and a couple immobilization procs which can help you get a little bit of range. You also have a wyvern sting for when you manage to get to range or need an opener aside from a trap. Survival's immolation traps are extremely mana efficient, and pretty decent DPS to augment your (poor) melee.

I've had mixed results with this, so it may actually be poor advice.

One guilde utterly SMOKED me when I tried to do this ... on the other hand, another warrior I only lost by a little (because I deliberately stayed in melee, and because I didn't pop deterrence early enough), and then handily beat once I no longer felt like staying in melee the whole fight.

You probably do NOT want to try this, but it may be worth experimenting with just for laughs.

You;ll probably need some SV playtime though first so that you don't reflexively reach for scatter shot, and so that you don't immediately freak out when things are in your face.

Trifle · 04/19/07, 4:57 PM

If you're starting the duel with him frozen, then get to range and put down another freeze and let him intercept into that, the DR shouldn't work quite how you described it. Normal freeze trap duration is 20 secs, maximum pvp duration is 15 I believe. 2nd trap w/ DR duration = 10 seconds (half normal duration, pvp duration is checked afterwards). Thats plenty. If you get another chance for a trap later on I'd probably go for immolation.

If he does get close to you (after an intercept or what not), then wing clip -> scatter -> trinket. You should be able to run far enough away during the scatter that he can't piercing howl you.

Warriors in duels shouldn't be too bad due to trap cheese, its when its not a 1vs1 situation that they'll screw you over ;p