I play with a full SL lock in my team and never had problems with him being assisted. In fact, if he's the target, we're most likely in great shape.

I find that when he does die while being focused, it's because the team is failing at supporting him and not because of lack of hp or mitigation.

I use the VW as both a mana sponge and lifesaver (Suffering is actually pretty nice!). I don't often take out the Felhunter. I'm basically there to live as long as I can and bring a lot of people to moderate-low health by putting out insane damage and enormous stress on the healers. At which point its up to the rest of my team to bring people down.

I currently have Dreadweave Helm and Gloves and am wondering which armor piece to get next (I have ~2000 points).

On the PTR Felweave 2 set and dreadweave 2 set stack to get 70 bonus resilience, does anyone have any doubt that the devs will change that? I fear that because not every class has two sets of Arena gear they will not allow them to stack on live.

Also, just how good is a 1.3 cast Immolate. I use the spell frequently, so it being slightly faster is nice, but 35 resilence seems more useful.

If the bonus stacking will remain in, I think the Felweave Robe should be my next purchase (the fact the the bottom of the robe doesn't have a texture, fixed in 2.1, doesn't bother me since Gnomes are short enough to minimize the missing texture). Currently I use the Shadoweave set with 12 stam gems in those slots.

The bonuses should stack on live. Classes with only one set of arena gear can stack it with their one set of BG gear. +35 resilience is easily better than the 4 piece bonus imo.

Dang, those 3 games that your warlock has played with you in 5s must've given you massive amount of knowledge of the class!

As for playing 5s, you do basically have to be specced Soul Link at higher ratings or face death every single game against a decent team =/ I started out the season as UA and got to the top of the battlegroup pretty easily w/ a Dwarf Disc Priest in 2v2s, in 5s, I did pretty well, but was such a healing drain that I definately caused some losses due to either that, or just getting dropped like a sack of shit early in games =/

When I specced Felguard 2s was pointless, we played a few games w/ my priest as holy and myself as Felguard and basically just ran into warrior paladin teams, that we really couldn't do anything against, because the warrior just gets on you and the pally just dispels your dots, and your pet doesn't do anywhere near the amount of damage to plate to kill a warrior on its own, even w/ the priest mana burning the pally, we stood little chance because he had to constantly swap back to heal me and the pally could generally just LoS the manaburns as the warrior was taking so little damage he didn't have much to worry about =/

In 5s however Felguard works very well, spam tongues on everyone as you do w/ all specs, but having tongues + Felguard on a target can definately disrupt it a lot, and the interceps work nicely both offensively and defensively. Because I have so much HP / Resiliance as that spec on top of Demonic Resiliance, which is an additional 3% reduced chance to be crit / hit, most teams that focus me generally just give up after a game of trying to focus me and losing, w/ me still being able to tongues / fear pretty effectively, and focus someone else, but that just allows me more freedom to CC, and the ability to actually toss more than a corruption and my pet on the target. Pumping trinket shadowbolts into the focused target w/ a healer CCed isn't bad damage at all really, and I completely think that shadowburn is very very helpful in this regard, because having a direct damage instant nuke is extremely helpful for warlocks who are otherwise without them (unless you count deathcoil or backlash / nightfall, but if you're specced deep into destro you're probably useless, and if you're deep affliction you're probably gonna die :P). We have tons of people on the team so we run different setups, but we have pally priest warrior mage generally in every setup, and then just swap through hunter, rogue, lock. We tried tons of different variations of warlock hunter hunter rogue etc, but a mage generally works the best w/ all the combos. We had been taking 5s really seriously, and got up to 2480 and were top on the battlegroup, but then we had a terrible week, and w/ the whole private server fuckup and a lot of us not being eligible to play on it, even though our team was invited, we really haven't been doing many games since then, generally playing the minimum 10 and not caring too much about rating =/

As for 3v3s, I never have really taken them very seriously and we hardly ever play, but we haven't really had any trouble getting 2200, and both Felguard and UA seem to work fine in that environment, although there have been a few games where I was Felguard that I definately would've been burst 100-> had I not had Soul Link. One example is playing again a 3s team w/ well geared elemental shaman, AP mage, and an MS / DW warrior, I literally went from 14k+ hp to around 2k in a matter of seconds w/ mendings, renews, shields etc ticking on me I believe. For 3s we also have run all kinds of random different teams as people join and quit the team, because we really just do it for fun. We have done rogue, priest, lock, as well as priest, lock, lock, priest, warrior, lock, and priest, warrior, rogue etc all w/ pretty good sucess, we also have a pally that takes the place of the priest sometimes, but as I said, it's not taken too seriously, people join and leave the team all the time :P

Anyway, I definately think that warlocks can be effective in all the different arenas, but you can definately be forced into certain specs, and no matter what spec you are, you're probably gonna be useless without stacking tons of hp / resiliance. My one real complaint is just the same stupid pet bugs where if someone jumps to a pillar, they're basically immune to my Felguard, because it either won't do anything, or it'll take a minute or two to warp over to the pillar before bugging out there and not doing anything for the rest of the game, I have also had it get stuck in the side of the ramp when i'm running up there, and other random garbage like that, I know it's the same shit for mages because I can definately remember tons of times where I have seen a mage summon their WE only to have it be friendly to us and do nothing =/

We rarely run into this problem. I'm 5/45/11 with a Paladin partner.

In games we win vs. Paladin/Warrior teams, I just keep the Paladin fear-locked and use a Felhunter to lock down his heals when he's immune to fear. Sure, he's gunna get off a heal inside his bubble, but you aren't trying to win a mana war here. The idea is to just melt the Warrior and toss Shadowburns in between. You're trying to control the Paladin with Tongues / Fear / Spelllock. In games we win, my opponents mana bar is like 60-70%. You've just gotta get good at really watching the Paladin for when he breaks out of fear and immediately re-casting another Fear. He won't be able to break LOS. He *HAS* to heal at some point. With Tongues, unless the Warrior can pummel, I get off Fears almost everytime.

(Mind you, this is with the 50% Fear gloves and Conc. Aura.. wouldn't work nearly as well with a Priest)

The PvP trinket in 2.1 will break stuns, so that gives Locks a fighting chance, just use it on the Kidney shot.

1. You don't get Shadowburn
2. You don't get UA

I've considered trying this though.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Ii0RVoZbxczIiz0xsZxx0z

In 5 vs 5 that survivability you are trading in demo goes straight into the burst with destro. If I have a rogue and warrior beating on me, backlash is up every 8 seconds. With 20% stun resist (5 from helm, 15 from orc) They can't keep me locked down so while they are zerging me, they are procing backlash and I use Searing pain/Shadowburn dots and spitting shadow bolts every 8 seconds. In my pvp gear I hit close to 27% to crit. I have a high chance of procing shadow vuln. My personal win percentage has gone from 45% to 60% since switching from deep affliction. It works for me and my team. Plus that occasional 6k Shadow bolt brings me a smile.

And to you last point on 1 vs 1 rogues backlash is a big help there too. Although occasionally watching a backlash proc expire while still stunned makes me sad.

Since he PvP's with me on 3v3 sort of overkill to have double UA's, however the spec you linked has some definite viability with having Shadowburn.

To Frmorrison - the new trinket should be pretty nice, however even after getting out of Kidney Shot, they can still WotF / Trinket / CoS out of our cc /dots and burn us right back down again. Especially as a affliction lock the only shot we remotely have is after they kill us they don't have a healer and have the dots tick away to kill them.

1. You get SL
2. You get demonic resilience
3. You get Siphon life
4. You get Imp. Fel Armour (6% more heal effects)

I'd argue that the 24/37 spec has the highest survivability out of all the builds available to a lock.

However as i have stated in prior posts, I think its effectiveness is alot more reliant on what the other classes are in your team.

Also keep in mind you also can get:
- Imp. Corruption
- Nightfall
- Fel reach (i think this is what the extra range talent is off memory).... this owns for drain life
- 1pt in shadow embrace adding an extra 5% for soul siphon

So you still pack a reasonable amount of damage if you can effectively CC the opposing dispeller so they cant remove your dots.

I'd love to try this sometime. The whole 24/37 bit.

It's not like I use Shadowbolt 90% of the time in PVP anyway. Searing Pain spam is pretty effective. I donno. I've seen a few people with this spec. I may have to give it a shot. Not having Shadowburn will hurt though. I can already feel it. But wow, it will do insanely well vs. Warrior/Paladin teams with their Paladin feared and unable to dispel Drain Life.

Those 3 games were played on a new team. As I said in my original post, I just got invited to a new team, along with the warlock, last week. Prior to that, we played a 2k-2100ish team. If I had to guess I'd say somewhere around 150 games played with him on the old team. Keep your attitude to yourself. After attacking my experience though, you go on to agree with prettymuch everything I said. Thanks.

I switched to a 24/37/0 build tonight.. and I was very impressed.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Ii0rVRbkoZbxczIiz0es

My Paladin healer in 2v2s said I'm SO much easier to keep up. What I didn't expect was how effective DOT based attacks would be vs. say, Paladin/Warrior combos. You would think the Paladin would spam cleanse and my direct damage w/o Shadowburn would be minimal right? Except when you consider something.

Cleanse is 6% base mana. Now removing a few DOTs here and there isn't a huge deal, but somebody like me can spam Corruption, Siphon Life and both proc Shadow Embrace. That is 3 magic effects per person, and these Paladins try to cleanse them all. I run out into the midfield and just start spamming DOTs. I'll start with Amp + trinket + Curse of Agony on the Warrior and just refresh DOTs everytime the Paladin cleanses. I asked my Paladin partner how much Cleanse costs for her.

Answer: 177

That's 177 x 6 (1062 mana) to spam DOT removal on both the Paladin and Warrior. Figure 10% of a well geared Paladin's mana bar, not to mention the heals he throws out in between. We ran into one team where my partner was at 5600 mana and the Warrior's partner was completely dry when they lost. That's how healable I am, and how mana intensive it is for my opponents dispeller to keep up.

(I forgot to mention Drain Life, which Paladins also love Cleansing)

Something else to consider. I don't run OOM and with Improved Fel Armor + Siphon Life + Drain Life spam whenever I can, Lifetapping for 1650 (2/2 Improved LT) is incredibly mana efficient for me. Which means I can re-apply DOTs and never really worry about running OOM. I'm just a little careful when I tap.

So! To the person who mentioned how good 24/37/0 is, you're absolutely right. I'm not missing Shadowburn at all. It will probably cost me DPS in our PVE raids (no Imp. Shadowbolt / Bane), but my 2v2 team went from 2178 to 2227 tonight.

Glad I could help ;-)

Alright, it's time for a little arena PVP cloth-based theorycrafting. I figure, if I'm going to tank melee DPS anyway, might as well gear for it. I'm finding my role is more about staying alive and slowly eating away at my opponents, especially in 3v3s where I'm almost always assisted. The loss of Spellpower is pretty minor overall, considering the upside of this gear setup. Mind you, I will have two different setups. I wouldn't wear this vs. a magic DPS team. I'm just making an Item Rack set for physical DPS which are sure to focus on me.

Yes, I know Karazhan drops a Gilded Thorium Cloak from Illhoof. But I'm done with that place. It's on par with Molten Core for excitement value anymore.

Come 2.1.0, I plan on wearing the following 4 items. I'm collecting and testing now.

Thoriumweave Cloak
Back
318 Armor (Buffed to 390 in 2.1.0) + 120 Armor enchant
+35 Stamina

Violet Signet of the Great Protector
Finger
250 Armor (Buffed to 350 armor in 2.1.0)
+33 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 16.

Ring of Unyielding Force
Finger
200 Armor (Buffed to 294 in 2.1.0)
+27 Stamina (Buffed to 31 in 2.1.0)
Equip: Increases defense rating by 21. (Buffed to 22 in 2.1.0)

Adamantine Figurine
Trinket
Requires Level 68
Equip: Increases defense rating by 32.
Use: Increases armor by 1280 for 20 sec.

__

Net gain of 1061 armor (to 2308 total Armor in 2.0.1 and 3588 every 2 mins w/Figurine)
Net gain of 70 Defense (Dodge / Miss / - Crit) * Making up for lost Resilience
Net gain of 13 Stamina

Net loss of 76 Spellpower
Net loss of 74 Resilience (Should be at or just below 300 come 2.1.0, even with the loss)
Net loss of 10 Intellect
Net loss of 12 Spell Hit

Previously, I was 5/45/11. Which is pretty much the build you're talking about.

You're forgetting about Nightfall procs. Sure, a Priest/Paladin is going to spam Cleanse DOTs, but he can only do that so often. At some point the Paladin or Priest has to heal. Meanwhile I've got a Felhunter running around gobbling up buffs and up to 8 DOTs ticking at once. That's a helluva lot of dispelling. Keep in mind one cast of Siphon or Corruption is worth 2 DOTs, not 1.

I don't miss Shadowburn one bit. It's hard to explain but consider what you trash to go 24/37/0.

Lose
Improved Shadowbolt: So, when do you have time or nobody on you to spam 2.5 second spells?
Bane: It hurts Immolate, but that's about it. See above.
Shadowburn: Nice burst, but with a Felguard spec + Resilience from your opponents, how often does this crit? It sounds nice right? "But it's my only burst!" I was only rocking 16 or 17% crit when I was 5/45/11. Considering the Resilience of some teams, that can get down as low as 9-10%. Most of the time I see 1500 pt. burns on players.
Demonic Tactics: If you're losing Felguard and Shadowburn, might as well toss out the 5% crit bonus right? The reasons you had to stack crit at all goes right out the window as soon as both are gone.
Felguard: It's a loss vs. certain team setups. You do lose a 5% damage bonus + reasonable melee DPS + intercept stuns. It's a nice pet in select situations. But does it really keep you alive? Are you killing the other team before they kill you when your healer runs OOM?

Gain
2/2 Improved Lifetap (Putting my LT at around 1650)
2/2 Siphon Life

5/5 Fel Concentration
..really crazy good in the middle of chaos when healers are focusing on healing and less on dispelling. We run a Warrior/Paladin/Warlock team. Most of the time, any defensive dispelling Paladin or Priest is waaaaayyy too focused on healing whatever my Warrior is on to bother spamming Dispel. Which means for me, as soon as I come out of a Pummel, I can Drain Life for 100% healing, not worrying about interruption at all from his damage thanks to Conc. Aura. It takes enormous pressure off my healer while our Warrior just eats somebody alive with MS.)

Nightfall
Just like I wrote above, defensive dispellers have far less time to spam Cleanse when my Warrior is absolutely tearing through somebody. Their healer has to heal, and he almost always gets behind on DOTs.

Grim Reach
Like the Warlock above wrote, it makes Drain Life 36yds and Fear 24yds. Not to mention every other DOT you have being 36yds as well. Really clutch when you're opponent's healer is loving that pillar in Blade's Edge. I can spam Tongues from the far end of the bridge and move right back out of LOS. This forces the healer to jump back onto the bridge. He can't heal DPS when I drag them down the ramp.

Shadow Embrace
..another DOT (free) for Priests/Paladins to Cleanse. Did I mention free? Meaning it costs Paladins 177 mana to strip something that you paid nothing for.

Siphon Life
Insane. It heals me for > 200 of each application. Even with MS, that's a significant amout of healing from 3 DOTs in my 3v3 team. I just re-spam it if I see anyone who doesn't have it on. It's even better with pets who give me a 4th or 5th target.

Curse of Exhaustion
This owns Rogue teams.. you mentioned Rogue/Rogue. Ever seen 2 Rogues with CoE on them and a Paladin on my team? Yeeeaahh.. melting to death. Lots of utility.

What do you think of the Dreadweave vs Felweave sets?

The difference is Felweave has -20sta -20int, but has +91crit rating (~4.1%). It seems that Felweave would be better almost regardless of your spec, as crit rating is a % based bonus, while -20sta -20int is only a static bonus, and you only need a certain amount of stamina (many people seem to think 12k unbuffed is about right, to avoid being burst down, and after that, go for resilience/mitigation).

Since Felweave has more types of stat on each piece, it also uses the item budget more efficiently.

2 of each and the gloves that suits your play style the best. I got the Felweave robe and shoulders and dread weave boots, gloves and helm. 35 resilience > .1 reduction in immolate.

In 2.1 the two Lock set bonuses will stack so it is good to have 2 of each (better than 0.2s off immolate).

I am using 2 Felweave/2 Dreadweave for Arenas atm, and Felweave set does use the item budget more efficiently, just like the War staff vs the Dagger.

Edit: There are no Dreadweave boots, but I prefer Felweave Pants over dreadweave pants (which you meant).

If you're trying to optimize around the 2 set bonuses while getting as much of the Felweave set as possible, Dreadweave Gloves/Shoulders are the best pieces to pick up with Felweave Robe/Hat/Pants. Dreadweave Shoulders only trade 10 crit for 10 hit and the gloves give you the avoidance to interruption on fear. Of course I picked the Felweave Shoulders, but given my arena rating I won't see a full set for practically a full year

I kinda doubt that, I've never been drained. Mana Burn drains 500 mana per second, Drain Mana only 200. Would take way too long to suck me dry - oh and most importantly, it's dispellable.