I'd really like to retouch on this issue; I haven't been PvPing for long on my Paladin but I do enjoy it quite a lot, although I feel rusty me and my druid partner are making decent progress in 2v2.
I'm fortunate enough to be in the same guild as the current best two arena Paladins on my server. I've hassled them for various tips but their specs appear to be slightly off-beat than the more popular 41/20; more so with 2.1 imminent I was wondering the value of certain Prot talents.

Mexxie (Link) runs a 40/21 build and says he prefers 5v5 over the other arenas. The key points is that he has full Shield spec, no improved Righteous Fury, no Divine Illumination, full improved HoJ and no Stoicism and also uses the Gladiators Shield Wall.
Robinvi ( Link) uses a 43/18 build, but is not in his arena gear as I type. He does however use more PvE orientated gear than Mexxie. The key points in his build is: full Blessed Life, 2/3 Shield Spec, no Righteous Fury, no Divine Illumination, no Stoicism, no improved Conc aura* but improved HoJ. He is also in the same 5v5 as Mexxie.

I'm not discrediting either of them when I say they don't have a certain talent, they're merely the main points I'd like to be considered when compared against Sck's and Hubris' builds. With 2.1 Illumination is nerfed to an extent that we'll definitely know its impact. From looking at video's and first hand experience I know Arena's can be of varying length, but as you progress it appears that they increase in length. When 2.1 hits will Divine Illumination be of even more importance or is it really not that huge of a difference? I know in 2v2 the higher you go the more common the Warrior/Paladin matrices are and mirror matches take their time.
Or like Robinvi's and Mexxie's builds will it be better to focus on improving our blocking and physical reduction? This also leads me into the next question about Improved Righteous Fury; how is it in comparison to Improved Block? It also reduces spell damage but is dispellable, but I find if anythings going to be set on my its a Rogue.

Finally: Improved HoJ and Stoicism. I can see the value in Improved HoJ if you have the points spare, there have been numerous times I wish i could've hit it more. It is however quite a few talent points to get this. How does it measure up in 5v5? I believe Stoicism was touched upon earlier in the thread by a poster who'd concluded that it really wasn't worth it in the end, yet I still see a lot of people use it. I have it currently but I do agree with the poster that I'm really not dispelled too much at a 2v2 level and I may drop it in future.

*Not needed twice because they're on the same team.

I believe blocking while healing is a bug on the PTR, they intended to make blocking work when using instant casts or drinking a potion NOT when using spell with a cast length. It happens quite often when they "attempt" to fix one thing they break something else. I'd be surprised to see it go live with full blocking working while casting a heal.

Stoicism on live is huge because it applies to all spells cast including blessing of freedom/protection when cast on anyone in your team. 30% harder to dispell/purge BoF or BoP on your teams mates yes please. 30% change to have mass dispell not remove your bubble etc.

I haven't tested stoicism on the PTR recently so no idea whether they are "fixing" it.

This many paladins can't be wrong:
http://www.geekboys.org/arena/index/...ladin/all/all/

I wish those 2 ret paladins in that list posted here. It would be interesting to have their insight on being on a 2300+ 5v5 team as a black sheep.

Based on their armory profiles, that is clearly not their normal pvp specs

I've been doing arena casually as a Ret spec in 2v2/3v3, and those teams are doing above average. (1700~1800 rating)


2v2:
My 2v2 has a Frost mage and a Surv. Hunter. The Mage/Pally team is the stronger of the two, as I negate some of the pressure on the frost mage and allow her to do her crazy burst damage. This team seems pretty well balanced, but has trouble with war/pally (BoF) and Warlock/* (CoTongues; way too many DoTs for Cleanse to handle when paired with S-Priest)

Hunter/Pally team doesn't do as well since most opponents know how to exploit the hunter's deadzone, and the team's control/burst is lower than that of the mage/pally team. This arena team is mostly for fun though, so we don't fret too much about it.



3v3
For the 3v3, the team is me, a MM hunter, and a Affliction warlock. This team could probably break 1800 rating if we could get more games in, but getting all 3 of us to play has been a challenge. (Which is also the reason why my 5v5 is dead; getting a team with good class composition together to play regularly is tough) The warlock provides control and tanks; the hunter adds damage with some CC/snare, and I heal with a touch of burst damage. It depends on our opponents, but I'd say I heal half the time, running around and hitting things with hammer in between heals. This team does well against many teams, though burst-heavy (PoM-Pyro mages + MS wars) opponents can drop someone if I'm not anticipating heals.



Tradeoffs:
Compared to using a Holy spec, I give up some longevity and healing power/tools for a tad more burst damage. It's not amazing, but it still works in small group PvP where each member's contribution counts. (Not that Holy paladins are bad at burst damage, but most that I've seen prefer to avoid any engagement, and like to wear pure healing gear like PurpleJudgement. A bit of a waste, IMO, since there are times when they're better off adding to their team's damage)

When I clicked on one, she had full ret gear and spec and whatnot. What suggests that wasn't accurate? The other one was Ret spec but wearing half cloth healing gear.

Have you spoken to this person? I'm just saying he had full ret gear and ret spec every time I have used the armory. Same with the other guy. I mean take a look:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...n&n=Alauraeden

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...kir&n=Scorpion

Scorpion right now is 1 / 0 / 0 Holy :-)

on Alrauraeden, I bet she respecs for Arena as her equip right now includes two Doomplate pieces which probably are far inferior to Gladiator Retribution gear.

Scorpion is going to go retri for raiding when next patch comes :P (no joke)
He still only does arena as holy though.

Your team would have to be nuts to be doing 2000+ arena with a ret paladin, fact is there are no ret paladins in any well known top rated teams. There are quite a few just paladins that spec holy/prot for arena then ret after they're done with arena for the week though, same as there are a ton of warriors that spec prot for raids and then MS for arena.

I admire your optimism Amera but nope

Ret paladins are a poor alternative to Warriors (no snare, less stuntime after you factor in mace procs and intercept, no MS, top burst for a Pal is slightly higher but Warriors are more consistent and don't run out of steam, which Ret Paladins do very fast) and even worse alternatives to real healers (like... 4 weak Holy Lights before the mana reserves are up?).
My guild's other (the one I'm not in, that is) 5v5 team runs a lineup with a Ret Paladin and they hover around 2k. Doesn't mean Ret is suddenly an amazing build but you can run a successful arena squad with a player as Ret - more so when there's a second Paladin specced for support on the roster.
With good teamplay you can overcome some of Ret's weaknesses and get a little mileage out of it but it's definitely uphill compared to other classes. Hopefully we'll get a review before Icecrown is on the PTR.

Hehe, well I was just wondering if we could find some black sheep out there. It is sort of depressing to look at a roster of 98/100 top paladins with identical specs. I believe in that spec review Holy paladins were like 90%+ of all paladins also. It really just supports my carbon copy hypothesis in the OP, which is a somewhat peculiar design anomaly given the notion that paladins were one of the initial hybrid classes.

They'd have to move illumination higher in the tree before they'd consider really buffing up the other trees though ;/ Any 41 point build still has the option of picking up illumination

Feral druids and Warriors are the only true effective hybrids in TBC (tank/dps) every other class is confined to being effective at one role only, by spec.

Shadowpriests? Elemental shamans? You should probably be more careful before making broad generalizations. Hybrids are hybrids, and while some may be more adaptive than others, don't simply write them off like this.

Well shadow priests are effective dps and mana regen but VE is not going to solo heal a tank vs. any npc that hits for a significant amount. I'd probably concede elemental shaman are fairly close to solid effectiveness at both healing/dps. Their healing effectiveness is a bit borderline without earth shield though.

There's quite a big difference between a fluid hybrid like and a modal hybrid
http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/search?q=modal

Clearly we aren't talking about 5mans, we are talking about effectiveness in progression end game raiding and in high rating arena pvp.

It's not clear actually, you specifically said "in TBC" which is a rather vage comment and doesn't define if your opinion is in TBC or in high end raiding/arenas.

I've just tested the new improved concentration aura - it is broken
It did not reduce the cooldown on counterspell cooldown at all. I'm at a loss for words right now...

Oh my.... I "tested" it with pummel yesterday and didnt think I noticed a difference either. I earnestly hope you're wrong, esp considering I spent ~50g respeccing to get that talent.

Did it work on the PTR?

I used counterspell, 8 to 5.6 seconds should be noticable, but I actually used a stopwatch and tested it three times. Always 8 seconds.

Supposedly it was broken on the PTR as well.