So is paladin/hunter just a complete hard counter to dk/healadin, or are we missing something?
Hunters have so many ways to CC me it is ridiculous. I can't really get anything resembling healing off in a fight against that comp.
paladin/hunter counters you as long as you
a) play in the open field and let your team be drawn apart. This is fixed by playing around a pillar and intelligently staying out of line of sight. (this includes the DK)
b) have no clue how to kill a pet with 15k hp. As soon his pet is gone he loses so much! No more pin (assuming crab) and no more intercept. It's only a matter of time until you have aligned your burst and CC and one of the two targets goes down.
Key thing to change for you: play defensive and use the pillars.
Priests can do that right now....better than Shaman. They don't cause it's not some kind of uber strat you've stumbled upon.
They don't because they need Pain Suppression to block Spikes on their partner or themselves, and they already have power Infusion for going offensive in the same tree. I was just mainly saying that giving those kinds of talents to healers now needs to be very carefully considered, Shamans are as offensive a healer as priests are and wearing mail and a shield to boot, and they have better mana regen to recoup resources if the spike fails.
You can't alter paladins to have as many decisions as rogues or mages without totally rebuilding the class into something that is barely recognizable from what it is now. Moreover, it's an advantage to have a higher skill cap, not a disadvantage. I think you can add some dynamic abilities to the more static classes that give them more options / make them harder to play even if it doesn't come close to closing that gap. The problem is WOTLK changed nothing in paladins being the purely defensive healer (losing repentance only takes this further). Shocks/cyclone/mana burn and similar abilities allow the other healers to play offensively and paladins really needed things like that.
On the subject of GLG: It absolutely matters what classes are using it. Rogue/Mage goes from fairly easy to a nightmare with double GLG. The difference between pal/dk with and without it isn't even close for instance.
It has been nerfed in the latest PTR build (957):
Gnomish Lightning Generator - Generates a bolt of lightning to strike an enemy for 1530 to 1870 Nature damage. This entire device is made of metal. (old: 2610 to 3190 Nature damage)
A well needed change I think. The current status of GLG is the different between a team winning or losing. Especially, as you stated, the Rogue/Mage (or any other double DPS) combos.
paladin/hunter counters you as long as you
a) play in the open field and let your team be drawn apart. This is fixed by playing around a pillar and intelligently staying out of line of sight. (this includes the DK)
b) have no clue how to kill a pet with 15k hp. As soon his pet is gone he loses so much! No more pin (assuming crab) and no more intercept. It's only a matter of time until you have aligned your burst and CC and one of the two targets goes down.
Key thing to change for you: play defensive and use the pillars.
This is very good advice, I'll add a few absolutely obvious tips:
- Your DK must stay in frost presence almost all the match. He takes significantly less damage, and it means that your paladin is better positioned to play offensively.
- Be aware of BoF usage. It might seem clever to constantly bof your DK, but it is a game of chicken with the other paladin. If you bof your dk and then their paladin stuns him, he is going to eat a shitload of burst - so keep track of the other paladin's bof/hoj usage.
Trying to cleans HoJ may result in cleansing vindication/judgment first, but sometimes it's worth it for the sake of saving freedom for frost traps or whatever, depending on the situation.
Has anybody else noticed how hard paladins (And our teammates) get fucked by warlocks inside of fear due to our lack of hots? I can eat a full fear (7 secs due to unyielding faith) but because I do 0 healing during that duration my teammate can easily die. I seem to remember Blizzard talking about giving paladins a hot/prayer of mending in beta, but it never went through. What happened?
Has anybody else noticed how hard paladins (And our teammates) get fucked by warlocks inside of fear due to our lack of hots? I can eat a full fear (7 secs due to unyielding faith) but because I do 0 healing during that duration my teammate can easily die. I seem to remember Blizzard talking about giving paladins a hot/prayer of mending in beta, but it never went through. What happened?
paladins do have a hard time with warlocks, but instant holy shock + instant turn undead make healing versus warlocks not THAT hard. Make sure to keep the felhunter feared and cover the fear on the felhunter with vindication.
Has anybody else noticed how hard paladins (And our teammates) get fucked by warlocks inside of fear due to our lack of hots? I can eat a full fear (7 secs due to unyielding faith) but because I do 0 healing during that duration my teammate can easily die. I seem to remember Blizzard talking about giving paladins a hot/prayer of mending in beta, but it never went through. What happened?
Almost everyone gets fucked by warlocks inside of fear, it has little to do with hots (or lack thereof). The fear mechanics right now are just absurd; a warlock can solo many classes from 100-0 with fresh DRs if their cooldowns (trinket and/or bubble) aren't up. Don't forget how amazing instant turn evil and holy wrath are for when you need to be able to get an emergency heal off without having to worry about spell lock. But to respond to the complaint about having no hots - I'd trade holy shock, even with 3x the cooldown, for renew in an instant. While I realize that you might sometimes be frustrated that you have no hots, don't make them out to be more than they are; other classes deal with the same frustration in regards to having no instant heals.
I'd trade holy shock, even with 3x the cooldown, for renew in an instant.
That isn't exactly a fair comparison, a baseline ability for a 31 point talent. But when they make pennance self castable, I would gladly trade holy shock for it :]
In regards to other classes getting messed up by warlocks - that's true to a degree, but having played a priest on TR it is ALOT easier to deal with warlock dots on a priest compared to a paladin simply because of good spread heals/hots. Same thing with druids, and to a lesser degree shamans, however I did also notice that it was impossibly unfair trying to self heal as a priest through a dk's damage, where as a paladin it is definitely manageable.
That isn't exactly a fair comparison, a baseline ability for a 31 point talent. But when they make pennance self castable, I would gladly trade holy shock for it :]
In regards to other classes getting messed up by warlocks - that's true to a degree, but having played a priest on TR it is ALOT easier to deal with warlock dots on a priest compared to a paladin simply because of good spread heals/hots. Same thing with druids, and to a lesser degree shamans, however I did also notice that it was impossibly unfair trying to self heal as a priest through a dk's damage, where as a paladin it is definitely manageable.
I wasn't really trying to make a reasonable comparison; I agree with you that it's not a fair comparison at all. But likewise, comparing a 51 point talent to a 31 point talent isn't a fair comparison either. :p
I'm confused as to why it was easier for you to deal with warlock dots as a priest unless they were not affliction. I can see warlocks being perhaps more easy to deal with on the PTR when sacred shield can only be on 1 target at a time, but PoM is essentially the only thing priests have against warlocks that is reliably strong (assuming it's not 1v1); and this "strength" against warlocks comes with an extraordinary weaknesses against all melee classes - a disparity that is much larger than the one between paladins and priests/druids against warlocks.
Prayer of mending is amazing versus warlocks, but turn evil is so much nicer. Against a lock just make sure your partner has an interrupt up, then you can turn evil the ghoul, and spam heal the hell out of your partner guaranteed not to eat a spell lock.
The other thing is that leaving a felhunter against a priest is relatively harmless, leaving it against a paladin is suicide, since they can nuke it much harder and melee it for mana with jow.
But I have a question to ask about Beacon Strategy.
Taking into account Spec is 51/20/0
Q: How would i use BoL in 2v2's say with a DK or a Hunter or lock or w.e...should I buff BoL on my dpser at the start before the doors open saving me a lot of mana of wait? and who should I BoL. Because of the high mana cost I don't want to be changing my BoL target a lot.
Generally, when only 2 people take damage, the one that takes less damage should be the one with the beacon. That is becuase overhealing the person that takes less damage will not heal the person that takes a lot of damage to full, but it will when done the other way around.
But I have a question to ask about Beacon Strategy.
Taking into account Spec is 51/20/0
Q: How would i use BoL in 2v2's say with a DK or a Hunter or lock or w.e...should I buff BoL on my dpser at the start before the doors open saving me a lot of mana of wait? and who should I BoL. Because of the high mana cost I don't want to be changing my BoL target a lot.
Thanks A lot.
The BoL spec is more of a 5s spec. In 2s, if you hate the playstyle of the repentence spec, playing 49/0/22. BoL is a great talent, but a separate trinket on a 30 second cooldown is much better.
With 3.1 coming out, we are getting some nice additions and movings of our talent tree. However, it still comes down to the fact that I will need to drop some talent points out of Ret for 20 or so into prot. This is, of course, expected. However, is there a way to know which talents have the least/most effect on dps?
This is the current build I am considering for 3.1. I really like it except for not having Vindication... which I view as almost a "must" for pvp. I also very much like the new Divine Guardian talent.
So out of the Ret tree... where can I drop 2 talent points to put into Vindication that would have the least effect on my overall dps? My thought was to use Rawr or Redscape's spreadsheet and remove those talents to see what would happen. Would this add in other variables however that would throw it off? (or pvp variables that are almost always present in pvp, yet not displayed in a pve scenario like Rawr?)
Thanks much for your thoughts on this.
I also understand SoC not a very strong ability, however, I have had more than 1 arena battle end with me vs a healer. I need to switch to SoC to not kill myself and outlast thier mana, so I like having that as an option. However, with the new SS, perhaps I will be ok continueing with blodd? My understanding is that Blood will not proc SS, but it will absorb recoil. Is that correct? Or is it that it comes out to be a wash with AOE dmg because the SS will stop the aoe more?
My build would be similar except I would drop a point from 2 hand spec and a point from SoC to get vindication. I am not quite 100% sure that the point in 2h spec is the lowest DPS point though.
The handful of times I've had to 1v1 healers, I've been completely okay using SoB. I just AoW use procs on myself and occasionally stop to cast time heal. SoB is going to run them OOM faster or give you a better chance to take them down in a HoJ too.
I'm pretty sure you're right about sacred shield. SoB can't proc it but when other damage procs it, it will absorb.
I'm going to throw two statements out there that I'd really love to have folks chime in and disprove. I'm moving to holy as my 2nd spec in 3.1 as I have been doing PVP as a healadin the past month or two and enjoying it, and obviously I may benefit from some Ulduar drops in my PVP set, potentially, hence my motivation to be proven wrong.
1) There is no really solid spec to fit both PVP and PVE needs. PVP holy might pick up beacon now (52/19/0), but will miss on some +INT and +SP in order to pick up PVP talents, resulting in a sub-optimal raiding build.
2) Retribution/DK is not a solid comp in 2v2 compared to Healadin/DK, even after 3.1, not for a team looking to push for gladiator in season 6.
Persuasion to the contrary on #2 might convince me to take a retribution secondary spec and use it in both PVP and PVE.
EDIT-updated to make the spec above into a hyperlink to wowhead's PTR talent calculator.
In addition, there's no really good Ret spec that covers all of what you need for PvP and PvE. All the hybrids have a wide variety of potential specs and only two to use with dual spec. We just have to suck it up and choose two good specs and then still respec occasionally, or deal with a subpar spec in two areas.
Basically no class has a PvP spec that is also optimal for PvE, never been that way either. Either you spec PvE/PvP and respec when you need a different PvE spec, or spec PvE/PvE to swap at will and respec for PvP.
Would dropping divine storm for reckoning be viable in 3.1? The nerf to the judgment and boost to the seal would make those double hits pretty beastly. It'd have a lot of RNG factor to it which kinda sucks but imagine landing a judgment plus getting two white crits and two sotm crits at the same time. Would be good damage. White damage + sotm out damages divine storm single target (talking mostly for a 2's build since a lot of the time all you can hit is one target) and if you're getting constantly hit then reckoning should be up a good amount of the time. Even if you only get one reckoning proc every 20 seconds it's still doing better damage and more burst than divine storm does.
04/04/09, 2:36 AM
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