(Holy Paladin)I just recently started to arena a good deal with a mage in 2v2's ive been looking over these forums for the last week or so looking to educate myself with some stratagies and play styles. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on wether this makeup is viable or if were just wasting our time. and some links to some places were i might b able to get some info on it. thnx

I have decided that I completely suck at pvp, and want to improve as a holy paladin. I’ve already researched this forum on specs/gems/enchants and have a pretty good understanding on the theory of how to set up the character for success.

My problem is setting up keybinds and macros. I use grid/clique pretty effectively in bg and pve environments, but I am convinced I could improve my arena play by redoing all my keybinds.. I am using a 51/20/0 spec (recently changed, and I like it quite a bit), and am curious what macros higher rated holy paly pvpers are using. IE for blessings, LoH, “hand of”, heals… I’ve completely remaped the left side of the keyboard for my rogue since release, so I’m pretty comfortable with making keybinds… Problem is, I can’t get a comfortable setup for the paly… Any assistance would be appreciated. Is everybody just using multi button mouses with binds and Grid or some sort of frame mod? It just seems that there are too many skills that can be macro'd to keys with modifiers for team members... Especially using the FotM holy/prot healer build.

The new patch is finally here

For all the ret pally out there, have anyone done any testing at which seal/talent build works best in arena. i have been reading some pve posts and it seems that Seal of Vengeance is the better choice but i wanted to actually get some solid testing/math behind it.

I keep reading that Seal of Righteousness is going to be a contender for our seal of choice. I am convinced that in order for seal of vengeance to be useful in pvp we are going to have to start out for 6-7 seconds with a fast 1her to stack the dot, then swap to our 2her, stun and go to town. A 15 second ramp up time is not viable for pvp. Anyone who knows anything about us will just kite us for 10 seconds and let the dot fall, then were no threat. So we either have to use SoR or SoC (both seem to do similar damage excep SoR cant crit, but cant be dodged/parried) unless somehow we are going to be able to stick on someone this patch. Maybe we will end up using seal of justice.

Let me know what you guys think about this build

Paladin - Talents - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

After doing some research it seems that SoV is the winner, now comes the next quetions which talent spec is the best. I took off Divine Sac and Guardian, they are nice to have but you wont really use then that often IMO, the biggest loss is the SS and lossing 20sec of HoJ, on the upside you get a significant increase in dps and reduction in diorient effect. Overall you will be able to put more sustained pressure on healers/dps which will make them do less damage to you

just thought of another few builds

Paladin - Talents - Thottbot: World of Warcraft
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Paladin - Talents - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

What kind of comps do you plan on running? I'm trying to imagine what you'll add to a team that another form of DPS wouldn't do better, considering the 10-15s ramp up time on your DPS and inability to perform effective switches.

Almost no Rets are using SoC. The PvP Ret community seems split on using SoR (boosted with SotP and glyph) versus sticking with SoV (can also be boosted with SotP plus expertise glyph) and just eating the fact that we have rampup and a hard time switching targets (and breaking CC). I think much of that will depend on your bracket and team comp.

Taking SotP leads to some interesting spec problems - giving up 20 seconds CD on HoJ is tough, and on a long single-target focus, SoV still does more overall damage once you reach full stacks. But in testing through the Arena I've found that the ability to make strong switches can more than make up for that difference. A danger in using SoV in PvP is that if you fall behind in damage (CC gets you, or opposing heals are very strong) and free their healer up for a few GCDs, dispels can reduce your SoV stack and effectively kill your DPS.

I have no intention of losing improved SS or Imp Divine Sac, not to mention our stun reduction on our timer. They are simply all way too powerful in the arena.

I don't plan on using SoV in the arena either. If you think about it, how often do you need to switch targets? How often do we get kited long enough for a stack to fall off? How often does someone iceblock, cloak of shadows, bubble, magic-immune etc so that we lose our stacks of SoV? How often do you need to switch away from a target to CC them and can't afford to have a DoT ticking?

Answer to the above? Often enough to not use SoV in the arena. The exception might be a 2v2 fight against a healer where you will always be on the same target. But those don't happen often. The arena pvp scene is all about fast switches, catching your enemy unaware, and otherwise speed and mobility. All the things that SoV doesn't really provide.

So really to me it comes down to SoR or SoC. and SoC comes out on top without SotP in PvE, so I might be going down that path, but it has yet to be proven to me in pvp. Otherwise SoR seems to be the way I'll be going and saving a talent point.

Honestly, I think it will be a combination of SoV for fights you know you can stick on the target, and SoR for fights that will require burst and/or quick target switches. But in no way would I lose our stun reduction and DS for SotP. Way too much utility and CC loss for marginal dps increase.

Divine Sac. can be taken even when dumping 5 points into SotP. If you only dump 3 points into SotP, you can retain the Imp. HoJ talent.

Unyielding Faith isn't bad either, as a single Fear can relocate us far far away from our target, and cost us huge amounts of DPS time. If your team has a priest or shaman, then the lower stun CD is certainly better. I run with a Druid, so Fear becomes a big liability for both of us.

I also find many of my matches determined within the first 45 seconds of engagement, particularly in 5v5. A faster stun is great, but it's not terribly important once the match outcome is already established.

Well since the new opach it is sayd that holy paladins are one again good for Arena. But what i realy want to know is what kind of spec, gems and enchants are needet for that xD

Nothing has really changed to buff Holy with 3.2 - it actually wasn't a bad spec here in season 6. There are some exemplary players at 2.7+ rating in all brackets as full holy, even 2's.

I wasn't one of those, mind you, but if you can stand the WoW forum-like drivel that takes up 80% of the comments on arena junkies' message boards, you'll see a number of holy paladins with high ratings posting that holy is fine.

I run priest ret rogue for 3s and we stopped playing once we hit 2200 a few weeks ago. The bottom line is that SoV can not be used reliably in arena. The dot can really mess things up if you have to switch targets or cc the one you had just been on.

I use SoR, glyphed with 5/5 SotP. With a rogue teammate, HoJ isnt all that important seeing that it has DR with all rogue stuns.

As far as Holy goes, I would have to say that almost 90% of Holy Paladins that are above 2K are running the Holy/Prot build with undispellable Divine Plea, a 20 second CD HoJ, and a Silence/Slow. Not to mention the burst the posses with their prot spells and exorcism.

When I play 2s with my disc priest, we run into Holy/Prot Pally - Arms Warrior all the time. The comp is very difficult to beat and when we win it usually will come down to burning the paladin oom, or having the stars align during a fear and nuking down the warrior. It takes a very long time either way, and the good pallies will HoJ, followed by the silence during every Bladestorm. Its very hard to stay alive and I can die in the first 30 seconds of the game or I can die 10 minutes later.

I'm also running ret/rogue/disc, and I'm currently using SoR due to the more consistent dps output. My situation is this. I am running a very young team (~1500 as of Season 6). As you can see my gear is pretty inadequate and i can explode rather quickly so my current build is to maximize dps rather than survivability (5/15/51). Therefore cc is a major component of my 3s team. Even with diminished returns i've missed having the 40s cool-down on HoJ since switching to my current build after 3.2. I'm thinking of switching to the build linked below (3/17/51) to get the HoJ cd decrease again and i was wondering if anyone has any comments on my line of thinking?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

New S7 has arrised, and i am opting to from a group with what i have for 3's --- Arms warr--Ret pala--Ret palla.
I know with the new 10 percent dmg reduction from Gear wil prevent insane burst dmg to most classes for 3.2.. and some say that 3's without a healer is completley Out there.. But this is what i have to play with , so i must make the best of it -- all of us are Vet Gladiators of past S1---4, so skill is not an issue... But as always i seek opinions from everyone... No hate mail, i know this is a tricky combo, but this is what i have for this season..

I was thinking opting My self for a SotP setup with SOR n glyph, using Sact (not imp)-- with 4/5 in Toughness--Having less worry from Mages SS on RF..

the off sider RET going mainly for a pressure class with SOV on healers

The WARR as a Cleave setup playing Havoc for Kiters

Positives wil be --- 2 x sac---2 x Repentance--2 x HOJ's-- MS-- Hammy--Major Lock down Burts class--

Negatives--Un imp HOJ's -- No Strong Healers relying on Enrage regen and Flash//Bubble//LOH//

Assumption--- 2300 max rating --

worst setups to go against ---RMP--RDW--WDW--RPW..

Good comunication and CC rotations could make this class devistating ----- on the flip side it could be a FAIL..

what you think?

Even with Low gear your advantage as a Pally consists with timing, a 2300 gear rated pally could be a worry to any class if he knows how to time and savor his abbilities in the correct sequence.. having 5/15//51-- having 4/5 in toughness and 1/1 in sac can make up for your lack of gear More so than using IMP RF,that in turn can be SS by mage classes..

5/15/51 spec setup is still much as viable than having the IMP HOJ's -- you have to think how many times are you out in the open Hacking on a rival bearing your self to the onslaut of the others ... Play smart LOS in better areas ... practice makes perfect .. IMP HOJ's are mainly for 1v1 --2v2 Matches were lockdown is mainly priority for a quick finish...

I'm currently playing a ret/rogue/healer setup and I found 1 minute HoJ to be perfectly fine. I'd gladly give up 20 seconds on HoJ to get more damage. Some of our matches are won without me using my HoJ at all (That's ret+rogue burst for you).

I disagree, I currently run Ret-Rogue on a 2's team, and survival isn't quite as important as making the first kill on time. I'm also rarely the focus target in both 2v2 and 3v3, making survival talents largely pointless. Damage output is so important that I've even specced into taking RV, despite the fact that it interferes with a switch on the CC target (Blind, Gouge). We haven't been forced to make sudden pre-CC-chain switches often, so it hasn't been an issue.

Running ret/rogue in 2s and ret/rogue/healer in 3s (both 2400+mmr) and yes, damage is the key to this synergy. Survival takes a back seat to insane damage and pressure, there's little need for survival talents when you can put the opposing team on the defensive. With the healers panicking to keep their targets alive and dps forced to pop defensive cooldowns, you'll win matches simply by applying pressure and forcing teams to play the game you want them to.

I'll highlight with an example. Against your typical druid/dps (insert DK, Warrior, or Ret) we usually start on the dps, unless the druid hasn't pre-hotted himself, in which case we sap dps and start druid. Most dps classes have to immediately pop defensive cooldowns following the cheap shot -> kidney, and often they must use their trinkets. If they haven't trinketed, we can blind druid (or repent if he has foolishly gone into caster form) and apply more pressure to the dps. At this point if the druid doesn't trinket the blind, the dps target is almost certainly doomed. Once the druid does trinket this is where a decision can be made to apply further CC to druid or quick swap to the druid (who has zero hots up and trinket down) and CC the dps. Variations on this can be played, ie. opening on druid and forcing trinket. Priest teams follow a similar strategy with the added bonus of being able to sap the priest in nearly 90% of the games. Prot/holy paladins are a bit tough, but once their cooldowns are finished it is extremely easy for a rogue to control them.

I should also add that we run double engineer with double dark moon card death trinkets (yep it's silly). Bottom line for any good arena team is the ability to apply pressure and forcing the opposing team into set decisions.

How useful is DMC: death vs. DMC: greatness? The ICDs are the same, so the question is does the burst of DMC: death outburst the added damage from DMC: greatness? Especially for ret pallies, where STR is such an incredible stat, I would have thought DMC: G would be the better trinket.

On a change of subject, for the new season, I'm running ret/disc in 2's. I'm finding Ret/disc very playable. For 2 dps teams, SoR + 101 defensive CDs usually allows us to burn a dps down before my healer or me dies. For healer/dps, it involves stacking vengeance and bursting with a cc-chain: repentance/HoJ/Psychic Scream/HoP(for disc dps). I'm finding the added damage with 5 stacks of vengeance enormously helpful in this regard. Vengeance can't be cleansed effectively - healers have to waste 1 out of every 2 GCD's to cleanse it. Once 5 stacks are up, the standard ret rotation is sometimes enough burst to make a healer waste a CD or two to keep the dps up. It works even through a full set of druid hots, so no target switching is needed. The worst comp for us is UA/druid drain - the damage mitigation, life drain + HoTs makes bursting insanely difficult, coupled with tree form and the lack of repentance.


For 3's, we're running ret/disc/survival. BM seems like the better comp for this, but my hunter doesn't want to go. It would seem to me that 5 stacks of vengeance + BW = win. That being said, 4 of the top 5 teams are MM, and 5 of the next 6 teams are Surv.

I've been thinking over this for quite some time, I have access to both trinkets and have played with both. The passive AP from greatness along with the strength proc is extremely good, on the other hand, Death has an extremely high chance of proc'ing on your initial target. It comes down to whether you have good enough base attack power. The deciding factor for me is pushing a target into hammer of wrath range (<20%), which a Death proc can often do especially when 2 people are using them coupled with 2 hand mounted pyro rockets. One other bonus is any dots you apply from either Seal of Corruption or Righteous Vengeance can proc Death, this is particularly handy vs. classes that can kite/escape. I've had situations where a mage blinked away and Death proc'd on him after the blink putting him into hammer range for the kill.

If I had access to Death's Choice from ToC I might reconsider using DMCeath.

With Hand rockets, I can see Death being better with Greatness.
Are you using SoV in PvP? All of the Paladins I have seen in the top 10 are using SoR (due to no ramp time I presume). You are right that DoT tics can proc the trinket.

He's using Glyph of SoR, so I assume that's his seal of choice in PvP. Most likely he was just emphasizing how our DoTs can proc the trinket for a better front-load burst, which is also why he has RV even when running with a Rogue.