The Paladin PvP Thread - Page 59

Veet · 02/24/10, 5:03 PM

Re: Prot Gear

There are two schools of thought on prot gearing for PVP. Some say to gear identical to a Ret paladin with the exception of 1h and shield and the others say to use a few Prot tanking pieces for SBV, Defense and set bonuses. Both agree that strength is hands down the best stat to stack and is desirable in any slot where you can replace it over Attack Power (ie. Off sets, neck, back, rings etc...). The disagreements are primarily about crit/burst potential vs. set bonuses/defense.

Both the tier 9 and tier 10 Prot tanking sets give nice +damage modifiers to primary abilities. They also have non-negligible amounts of Defense which are helpful for Ardent Defender procs. However, using these items greatly reduces your crit chance and to some extent your overall Strength. A commonly stated truth is that Crits win games whereas sustained damage is easily healed through. I haven't had access to the Tier 10 2 piece bonus (20% Damage on Hammer of the Righteous) so I can't comment on how good it potentially is. Many have dismissed it as garbage for Protribution mainly due to the lack of SBV and DPS stats.

One should note that the majority of the top Protribution paladins are simply Ret paladins who have given up on Ret and easily swapped to Prot with little to no gear changes. This could be an indication as to why most of them rarely, if ever, use Prot PVE gear.

Badpaladin · 02/25/10, 1:02 PM

THe t10 2-set is a must-have for effective prot paladin play now, because Hammer of the Righteous will hit so hard. As for the rest being ret gear, it's because that gear offers so much strength and crit. Ideally, you want to be sitting at 30% crit or higher, with at least 4500 attack power. That's a pretty high standard, but at that point you'll start to see devastating damage, when combined with an MS(preferably a warrior).

Xequecal · 02/26/10, 3:17 AM

Originally Posted by Kayvaun

Protribution is incredibly viable in arena. the burst allows (with proper coordination) the almost instantaneous destruction of pretty much any class. That said it seems plate cleave, and double healers in 3v3 are the bane of this spec. I'm currently running protribution/rogue/priest and we demolish every comp we come up against except these two. Granted we haven't played that much (roughly 30games a week since the new season) but between the silencing shield, survivability, lack of interest from other team's dps due to sword and board, and the 30s cd on HoJ the protribution spec is fantastic and very fun.

That being said; While using ret pvp gear is essential for the strength there are some other pieces of PROT PvE gear you should try to get your hands on. Remember for this spec the most important stats are (in order) str>crit>block value. Str= ap,sp,and Blockvalue and the other two are self explanatory. So ideally you are going to want T10 gloves and chest for the 20% boost to HotR(assuming you can get arena shoulders and helm), T9.2/.3 pants and helm (helm is optional if a ilvl 264 replacement can be had), a tank trinket (corroded skeleton key has a nice clicky and lots of stam) with a nice ret trinket (crit here if you can; Whispering Fanged Skull?). Add to this a SLOW 1H dps weapon with high top end to maximize your HotR dmg and a tank shield with high block. Cloak, rings, boots, belt, bracers and neck are all up to you. I'm currently running Wrathful/relent rings, tank neck, and soon wrathful belt/boots/bracers. this type of item set up, while not necessarily giving you high resil, will effectively top out your protribution "burst".

Quick note: the T9 legs and helm are the highest iLvL tanking gear with raw block value on them which = raw dps in this spec. the pants are a must due to the sheer volume of BV on them but the helm is a little more replaceable.

Hope that helps.

Can you enlighten me as to why you need a slow one-hander for protribution? HotR just does weapon DPS * 4, the speed of the weapon is irrelevant. As far as I can see Last Word would actually be an extremely good weapon for this spec. 100 STR and the healing buff isn't useless.

Manveru · 02/26/10, 10:14 AM

It's not about the hammer, but rather Seal of Vengeance/Corruption. That's why you use slow weapons.

elliss · 02/26/10, 10:16 AM

Protret Equipment Breakdown - Arena Junkies Forums
The grear for prot break down very well done.
Slow weapon for the higher sov procs

Kayvaun · 02/26/10, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by Xequecal

Can you enlighten me as to why you need a slow one-hander for protribution? HotR just does weapon DPS * 4, the speed of the weapon is irrelevant. As far as I can see Last Word would actually be an extremely good weapon for this spec. 100 STR and the healing buff isn't useless.

Thanks for pointing this out, I accidentally put HotR instead of SoV but the slow 1H is for the high top end weapon dmg to maximize the SoV procs NOT the HotR hits. seeing as SoV is 33% weapon dmg at 5x stacks. I've since edited my post for accuracy.

I was wondering if anyone has figured out the best weapon enchant? I'm figuring Berserking but I was wondering if anyone has pvp'd with the tank enchants. Thoughts on survivability increases vs. dps loss w/o berserking?

lertim · 03/01/10, 10:26 AM

MATLAB TPS Analysis pretty much covers DPS as Prot.

Manveru · 03/01/10, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by elliss

Protret Equipment Breakdown - Arena Junkies Forums
The grear for prot break down very well done.
Slow weapon for the higher sov procs

After analyzing all pros and cons, this is what I came up with. This assumes you won't do almost any PvE except for 5 mans and some 25 toc pug for the shield (and ICC rep farm runs are common too).

Profiler - Wowhead

Feel free to discuss.

Melaeas · 03/03/10, 3:44 PM

Hey, I was wondering if I could get a quick bit of advice. So this is my first season trying arena and I lvled my pally as a prot/tank pve spec. A friend of mine who rolls a mage got me into arena and I decided to roll as a ret. In combo with the mage (frost/arcane) we sit with a team rating around 650 and go 50/50 win/loss. As we're both fairly new, I think a portion of this has to be due to lack of experience, but I want to know if I'm specced wrong or need different gear. As I am now, I finish in the top 5-6 in battleground but in our 2v2 I get focused on and nuked then they focus on the mage.

My original idea with this set-up is to maximize mobility and CC while losing a bit of dps. I usually have Kings, Seal of Justice, and RF up. The hope is that SoJ procs often enough to disrupt enemy players and throw off their rhythm. While in the meantime the mage is CC'ing and hitting the other person. Then I HoJ and the mage turns with me to hopefully nuke my target. Unfortunately this only works half the time. Any suggestions?

Melaeas · 03/04/10, 2:15 PM

Ok so I decided to give the prot pvp spec a try after reading about it in this forum. I gotta say I really like it thus far. By changing from (7/11/53) to (0/54/17) my damage has at least stayed the same and usually has improved. In BG my crits went up from 2-4k to 3-5k and my survivablity has increased as well. On top of that it feels more natural to me (I leveled as a prot), and I seem to have a better rotation down. I haven't had the opportunity to do a lot of arena yet but so far it looks good.

Gear: Profiler - Wowhead
Talents: Profiler - Wowhead

My only problem so far seems to be that I burn through mana faster without the Judgements of the Wise talent. I can mitigate this somewhat with Divine Plea, JoW, and glyph of SoComm but I did decide to enchant with +Int in the shield just to help a bit more. My only question for this build at the moment is, do I keep glyph of Judgements or replace with glyph of Righteous Shield? More dmg from judges or less mana cost from shield? Any thoughts on viablility of this build? BTW I do know that I need to get some better gear...any thoughts on what should be replaced and with what?

Veet · 03/04/10, 3:35 PM

TAJ - Tiny abomination in a jar.

This is now my go to trinket for Ret PVP. Those that remember using Dark Moon Card: Death for the ~2k damage proc will appreciate what TAJ can do. The motes of anger build up extremely fast, I am getting an 8 stack on nearly every full cooldown rotation. This equates to a roughly ~2-4k extra damage every cooldown rotation when you factor in the seal procs (and some luck with motes). It's very much like playing with a DMC: Death that has a much shorter ICD.

My alternative trinket was a heroic Death's Choice but I am beginning to favor TAJ exclusively (if I was human, I'd use both).

bigus · 03/11/10, 5:16 PM

does anyone have experience in gearing/statting/gemming for prot pally dps/pvp? if so please let me know what you have found im wanting to tryout somethings but would rather build on what knowledge other, more experienced ppl have have found first. thanks =)

almiller07 · 04/01/10, 10:49 AM

It seems, personally at least, I have nothing against a rogue. If they sit on me I can try and heal as best i can until Im forced to bubble, it doesnt usually last long. Too long to the point to where My partner cant get the rogue down before he forces my bubble, then after the bubble expires or priest throws out a mass dis on me, hes back on me till he drops me. Is there ANYTHING I can do? We try to peel we try to cc, none of it works. Attempt to cleanse the MS poison but because there are normally 4 poisons on me with a 5 stack of deadly its usually pretty hard to do that.

Musqito · 04/02/10, 6:02 AM

Hi,

I have a question about Tiny Abomination in a Jar.
Especially using this in PVP Protribution. Anyone used this or has a thought about this?

Thanks

Kayvaun · 04/02/10, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Musqito

Hi,

I have a question about Tiny Abomination in a Jar.
Especially using this in PVP Protribution. Anyone used this or has a thought about this?

Thanks

For Protribution, as stated earlier in the forum, there are 2 schools of thought for gearing. First is to gear exactly like a ret paladin, but with a sword & board. The second is to incorporate some tanking gear, especially t10. I am of the second school. That being said, if you are using t10 for the +20% HotR buff, you should be using t10 gloves and shoulders. The gloves therefore give you a lot of hit rating. The only real advantage to TAJ is that it would allow a ret paladin to reallocate other items such as ring, neck and cloak away from hit and into crit. So for protribution this is a pretty mute point in my opinion. If you have t10 gloves all you need is the hit cloak and ring (PvP of course) and you are well above 5% And if you have access to TAJ, you can probably get a Death's choice, or Whispering fanged skull. In my opinion both better choices.

Also considering TAJ's other stacking stat: protribution significantly lowers the viability of the buff. An additional 50% hit from a High dps 2H weapon is something to consider, but when you are using a 1H it loses a lot of the appeal that TAJ has for ret paladins.

• frmorrison · 04/02/10, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by Musqito

Hi,

I have a question about Tiny Abomination in a Jar.
Especially using this in PVP Protribution. Anyone used this or has a thought about this?

Thanks

The power of TAJ for Ret isn't just that an extra 50% swing with a 2H is a lot of burst, but that it bursts often. Righteous Vengeance helps proc the motes. Prot DPS does have as many extra proc chances, just on Judgment with Judgments of the Just, but without RV + a smaller extra swing lowers the value. A 245 Death's Choice is the stronger option for Prot, unless you need the hit rating to reach 5%.

Note for Ret PvP, even hit capped before using TAJ (assuming you have RV) is a better choice than Death's Choice.

Musqito · 04/02/10, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

The power of TAJ for Ret isn't just that an extra 50% swing with a 2H is a lot of burst, but that it bursts often. Righteous Vengeance helps proc the motes. Prot DPS does have as many extra proc chances, just on Judgment with Judgments of the Just, but without RV + a smaller extra swing lowers the value. A 245 Death's Choice is the stronger option for Prot, unless you need the hit rating to reach 5%.

Note for Ret PvP, even hit capped before using TAJ (assuming you have RV) is a better choice than Death's Choice.

I'm using Deaths Verdict 245 + DMC Greatness (STR) atm.
Should i swap DMC with ToJ normal for protpvp?
I could put PVE items without hit in Neck and Back then.

Veet · 04/08/10, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Note for Ret PvP, even hit capped before using TAJ (assuming you have RV) is a better choice than Death's Choice.

I can attest to this in practice. Having access to both TAJ and Heroic Death's Choice I end up using TAJ in nearly all situations. Manifest Anger stacks build up incredibly fast, allowing for extra damage and seal procs. The added +hit even allows you to PVP at around 6-7% (able to avoid racials and some talents).

I would not recommend this trinket for Prot, however. Your melee attacks (and seal procs) as Prot are not a major source of your damage output. As stated above, a Death's Choice would provide better DPS stats for Prot in PVP.

elliss · 04/22/10, 10:01 AM

As prot stat priority is, strength>crit>resilience>stam.
The later two depending how much resil you have.
Death verdict isn't a wise prot choice,
As human get you're hands on the best crit trinket you can, that doesn't proc arp, with eather greatness or skeleton key , which I I'm planning on switching to as soon as I get the rest of the right gear with it.
If you're just starting of and don't feel like paying for greatness, berserker + battel master , crit one are great choices

RagingMonkey · 05/11/10, 11:42 PM

Hi all,

I arena'd for quite a while as a prot specced pally healer, and was just wanting to know if any experienced pally pvpers have any opinions on the viability of this spec?

I took it with the intention of a high survivability healer. I noticed differences such as no instant cast heal, however rolling in full furious holy gear i found i never lacked mana and still had reasonable health.

I took things like Avengers shield, talented it for the improvement, and used it as an interrupt. In addition to other talents such as imrpoved devo aura for the tree of life similar aura buff, and with the improved survivability i found myself and my partners survived alot longer and were more effective against annoying burst style dpsers, like rogues mages and such. I very rarely see this form of pally healer in pvp at all, and was wondering if there was a particular reason for this? i played this spec for 200 games and found it quite enjoyable

cheers

Syllab · 06/08/10, 10:28 PM

I have a question about protret pvp, I know about most things but my partner who has been at 2.4k in 2's with another protret tells me I should try to get DBW, I'm not an expert at pvp'ing, but I have been a hardcore pve'er, and I know what the stats are and why they're not really that awesome for me (or are they?). Currently I'm using heroic whispering fanged and battlemasters with AP (going to replace this one with deaths verdict as soon as I can, I'm human).

That's basically my question, DBW, or death's verdict (aka death's choice).

Afterhourz · 06/10/10, 8:46 AM

A blue post confirmed that DBW arp proc has been changed to haste which is abit better for paladins but not really the best stat.
Can be good for burst in PVP as the Races proc (thinking that's why your arena mate suggests to get it) but is more BiS for DK & warrior to be honest.
I would always go for Death's Choice /Verdict as the stats and therefore the entire item budget is good for Ret compared to the poor fixed arp on DBW.

Krick · 06/13/10, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kayvaun

The second is to incorporate some tanking gear, especially t10. I am of the second school. That being said, if you are using t10 for the +20% HotR buff, you should be using t10 gloves and shoulders. The gloves therefore give you a lot of hit rating. If you have t10 gloves all you need is the hit cloak and ring (PvP of course) and you are well above 5%

I've been playing ProtRet in battlegrounds for a while now in both my full Prot PvE tanking set (average iLevel around 255) and also in my PvP set (mixture of 232 and 264 PvP gear plus a few PvE pieces). Either way, I use my normal PvE Prot tanking talent build.

My PvP set includes two T10 tanking pieces (head and shoulders) and a 251 Ret chestpiece from ICC10, but the rest is PvP gear. Regardless of sets, I use the same libram, Libram of Valiance, for the strength proc, and the trinket, DMC: Greatness, again for the strength proc.

Even with my PvP set having 730-something resilience, I don't think my survivability is that much better, even against casters.

At this point, I'm still not really sure what I should be doing gear-wise. I've tried maximizing strength, I've tried maximizing resilience, I've tried maximizing stamina. It all seems to play more or less the same from what I see. I've never had that "WOW" moment where I just knew that I made the right gearing choice.

Do you have any other specific gearing suggestions along the same lines as "use T10 prot gloves and shoulders"?

What about PvE ret gear vs PvP gear?

What about ProtRet talent builds specifically for PvP?

Any "must have" glyphs?

Wolfpup · 07/06/10, 1:33 PM

Im new and dont know where else to ask this, but its pally pvp related so im assuming here. I apologize if I am wrong. I have macros that when you hold alt it switches it to a different move, but i want to be able to do that for moves that are auto targeted for my partner. For example
/cast [target=Dog] [nomod:alt] Hand of freedom; [mod:alt] [target=dog] Hand of protection
I know its wrong so please dont tell me that, I am trying to find out how to do macros like that. I have searched pages and pages of forums and other sites without any new knowlege really gained and hoped someone could help here. Thank you!

• Psykal · 07/17/10, 12:28 AM

The modifier and target parts need to be in the same brackets and you don't need the mod part if there is no modifier.

Your macro should work like this.

#showtooltip
/cast [mod:alt, target=dog] Hand of Protection; [target=dog] Hand of Freedom