With the possible appearance of Mystic Dawnstones, +8 resilience crafted gems (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24053), do you think it'd be worth it to socket those along with the relevant Nightseye gem over mass Solid Stars for survivability? The dawnstone/nightseye combination would also fit the colors required to get the socket bonus on any given gladiator piece.
Ironically in 2vs2, and 3vs3 stamina stacking as a Warrior prob has more benefit >_>
I would agree, at least for 3v3(I'm not incredibly experienced at 2v2). Most teams only run with 1 healer, so often warriors can be focused down very easily by magic heavy teams.
Hi, fairly new to the forums but this thread caught my attention.
I play a resto shaman for arena 3/0/58 spec, i play 2V2 with a Soul link warlock hybrid, and a 5V5 varies with classes. At the moment i have 7716 hp/8948mp, 1200 healing, 109MP5, and 76 Resil
On the discussion of which gems to socket in my arena gear I have major problems because on some arena fights, i outlast them with mostly PVE gear. Then there are fights where i have to survive the burst.
I guess my real question is which gems should i socket in my gear, Stam gems or healing gems?
With the possible appearance of Mystic Dawnstones, +8 resilience crafted gems (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=24053), do you think it'd be worth it to socket those along with the relevant Nightseye gem over mass Solid Stars for survivability? The dawnstone/nightseye combination would also fit the colors required to get the socket bonus on any given gladiator piece.
It depends on your current stamina and resilience levels. I prefer 12 stamina over 10 resilience, but then I do get 15% more stamina from items. However, without the stam talent it becomes a closer call, but it matters what types of damage usually kills you (can it crit) and your current health pool.
Also, in Black temple there is a non-unique craftable 10 resilience gem.
As a rogue in 3v3 I think it depends, simply, how often you are focused first. For example my 3v3 team consists of a warlock, priest, and myself, and I am almost never the first target. Thus I tend to veer toward dps without sacrificing too much stamina (i.e. I'll use tier 4 over gladiator pieces).
Hi, fairly new to the forums but this thread caught my attention.
I play a resto shaman for arena 3/0/58 spec, i play 2V2 with a Soul link warlock hybrid, and a 5V5 varies with classes. At the moment i have 7716 hp/8948mp, 1200 healing, 109MP5, and 76 Resil
On the discussion of which gems to socket in my arena gear I have major problems because on some arena fights, i outlast them with mostly PVE gear. Then there are fights where i have to survive the burst.
I guess my real question is which gems should i socket in my gear, Stam gems or healing gems?
Realistically, how often are you being burst down, and how big is it an issue? Do you lose normally when they focus on you first? If you think you need to up your survivability, I would use +12 stam gems. With all the +12 stam slots you will have +840 health putting you at about 8500. You'd lose a chunk of +healing and mana regen, but the Arena Water should calm any OOM fears you might have. Can't really do anything to make up for the loss of +healing, but I don't think it will kill your rating.
Isn't the 15 STA gem the BT drop? and thus, most PVPers wont have it for a while.
yes but someone was comparing the 10 resilience (BT gem) with the 12 stamina gem.
I don't know about socketing resilience, once the enemy team has figured out that a certain player sports 500 resilience they'll probably focus someone else.
Along the lines of how much to value stamina, is there an easy way to calculate the relative value of resilience vs. stamina? I would like to calculate the relative value of say, two trinkets, one of which was +30 stamina, and the other which was +20 stamina and +20 resilience.
Here's an initial attempt at some simple theorycrafting.
ASSUMPTION 1: You go into arenas at 12k HP fully buffed.
ASSUMPTION 2: Someone is hitting you for 800 DPS non-crit, 1600 DPS crit. They have a 30% chance to crit.
ASSUMPTION 3: You receive no heals during the course of the fight.
ASSUMPTION 4: You have no talents which boost your basic ratio of 1 stamina = 10 health.
The average damage to you will be 800 + 800*0.3 = 1040 DPS.
Your survival time is 12000/1040 = 11.538 seconds.
Now let's compare what happens when you equip a +20 stamina trinket vs. a +20 resilience trinket.
With +20 stamina, your HP increases by 200.
Your survival increases to 12200 / 1040 = 11.731 seconds, a gain of .192s.
With +20 resilience, you reduce your attacker's damage as follows.
Base DPS is still 800.
Additional crit damage drops from 800 to 800*(1-0.02*(20/39.42)) = 791.882.
Percent chance to crit drops from 30 to 30-(20/39.42) = 29.493.
Total average damage is now 800 + 791.88*.2949 = 1033.547
Your survival time is now 12000/1033.55 = 11.611, a gain of .072s.
Ratio of Stamina gain vs Resilience gain = .192 / .072 = 2.66
*** BURST DAMAGE AND PROCS ***
According to the above analysis, stamina is much better than resilience for survivability. But it doesn't take into effect the additional benefits of crit, such as "burstiness" or chance to activate/proc trinkets or talents. When I say burstiness, I mean the ability for you or your healer to react to a sudden spike in damage taken. To model this, let's say the value of the attacker's crit increases from +800 to +1600. Then the numbers become:
The average damage to you will be 800 + 1600*0.3 = 1280 DPS.
Your survival time is 12000/1280 = 9.375 seconds.
With +20 stamina, your HP increases by 200.
Your survival increases to 12200 / 1280 = 9.531 seconds, a gain of .156s.
With +20 resilience, you reduce your attacker's damage as follows.
Base DPS is still 800.
Additional crit damage drops from 1600 to 1600*(1-0.02*(20/39.42)) = 1583.765.
Percent chance to crit drops from 30 to 30-(20/39.42) = 29.49.
Total average damage is now 800 + 1583.765*.2949 = 1267.094
Your survival time is now 12000/1267.094 = 9.470, a gain of .095s.
Ratio of Stamina gain vs Resilience gain = .156 / .095 = 1.64
So even by doubling the value of crit bonus damage (from +100% to +200%), Stamina still increases survivability by more. With this assumption, I would value Resilience to be only 1/1.64 = .61 Stamina points. Going back to my original item comparison, a trinket with +20 Stamina and +20 Resilience would be equivalent to one with 20 * (1 + .61) = +32.2 Stamina alone.
Very intressting, I tried to evaluate resilience vs. stamina in a diffrent thread, how and where did you come up with your formula?
Crit. damage reduction in percent: 2xresilience/39,42
Crit chance reduction: resilience/39,42
Looks pretty solid though.
But you overlook one more advantage of resilience, in long lasting games, it reduces mana costs for your healers to keep you alive, thru reducing incoming damage.
A formula to get overall % damage reduction per resilience point at 100% added crit damage would be:
Since i can not edit it any more, it is not finished, nore up to date.
With 1 Res = 0.036 % overall damage reduction, and using 10k life as base I would come up with:
1 Sta = 2.78 Res.
Which is pretty close to hobbes number, using a driffrent aproach. Keep in mind though, as shown above, that resilience works its way up, over damage incoming, since it works relativly, while added stamina is an absolut number.
So players that typically eat a lot of damage over the course of a game will want stack lots of resilience (locks, for example), maybe using 1 sta = 1 res. If you can estimate the damage you eat in a game, you could get a very good rule of thumb.
Wouldn't teardrops (or hell, even royal nightseye) be a reasonable choice for a red socket?
I'm sitting at 9.3k unbuffed in pvp gear with ~20 resilience, I wear my timekeeper's legs and crest of the sha'tar from my tanking set ... should I grab the arena legs (currently only wearing gloves) and go back to my healing shield? In 2s with a MS warrior I tend to get shut down more than burned down (fear/CS me and attempt to blow up my DPS).
Well, and just to highlight that this is my personal view, I look at +heal as a fairly useless stat in arenas. You're always looking at MS debuff and for me personally the difference between full on glass cannon healer raid gear and pvp set with whatever +heal it happens to have is 200-250 hp on a holy light.
Your pvp stats are stam and int, red gems are totally useless. If something has only yellow sockets you should be at least tempted by 8 int to activate the bonus, but anything with red sockets just gets a full load of elunes for me.
Having more +heal won't help you with getting controlled, you have to work on that both personally and as a team.
e: To be honest, I'm not very familliar with 2s, in 5s if I see it's going to be a mana battle, I just get out of combat and switch gear - thank sweet lord for itemrack - I don't know if this is an option for 2s.
Depends on what you play with and how well you communicate with your teammate, some combos you wont have much chance to get out of combat because you have to constantly be healing/curing, or they'll be on you the entire time.
But if it's a healer/dps vs healer/dps kind of fight, getting out of combat is rather realistic as long as your teammate knows to stall.
Well, and just to highlight that this is my personal view, I look at +heal as a fairly useless stat in arenas. You're always looking at MS debuff and for me personally the difference between full on glass cannon healer raid gear and pvp set with whatever +heal it happens to have is 200-250 hp on a holy light.
Your pvp stats are stam and int, red gems are totally useless. If something has only yellow sockets you should be at least tempted by 8 int to activate the bonus, but anything with red sockets just gets a full load of elunes for me.
Having more +heal won't help you with getting controlled, you have to work on that both personally and as a team.
e: To be honest, I'm not very familliar with 2s, in 5s if I see it's going to be a mana battle, I just get out of combat and switch gear - thank sweet lord for itemrack - I don't know if this is an option for 2s.
My view, as a healer (druid but still) is that +healing is the numbre one stat to go for (Assuming you already have descent number of sta/res. And the reasoning is easy. Healing in pvp is about two things. First and first alone its about TIME. How many times haven't you lost a team mate with 0.1s left on your castbar? And +healing adds just that more time till next heal. This is why I have it. And counting the number of holy lights you throw off in a whole fight you will see that the the 200 extra heals you throw around really adds up. I bet you easily cast around ten the first 20 seconds and there you have a "free" cast.
And this is how I rate resilience. There was this excel spreadsheet here that given the TOTAL damage taken and not just a single hit. The result was given as stamina and time longer you would live compared to no resilience.
Now I don't say that one should have 1 hp and 1 mana pool and 5 gazilions of resi. But the two different play styles in Arena, one is burst and the other is outlast. My couters as a healer is high healing giving me more heals per cast to have the time to before next cast in a burst scenario. And for an outlast scenario I want my team mates to have high resilience so I don't have to heal more than nessecarily and not wasting mana in that case.
Do not matter how much you play, you will never get the carrot.
And this is how I rate resilience. There was this excel spreadsheet here that given the TOTAL damage taken and not just a single hit. The result was given as stamina and time longer you would live compared to no resilience.
Now I don't say that one should have 1 hp and 1 mana pool and 5 gazilions of resi. But the two different play styles in Arena, one is burst and the other is outlast. My couters as a healer is high healing giving me more heals per cast to have the time to before next cast in a burst scenario. And for an outlast scenario I want my team mates to have high resilience so I don't have to heal more than nessecarily and not wasting mana in that case.
Do you refer to hobbes/my posts, or some excel sheet I am not aware of, but very intressted in!?
That is exactly the point, while finding a balance between offensive stats (+damage, +heal, etc.) and deffensive stats (Resilience, Sta, etc.) is rather difficult, they can be analysed alone, pretty well.
Sta and resilience for example:
Initially you come up with 1 sta = 2,7 res, that is for burst games, sta is way more efficient than res (add that gems bring 8 res vs. 12 sta...)
But if you use 0,036% damage reduction per res point, after eating 27,8 k damage you will be at 1 sta = 1 res, at 55,6 k 2 sta = 1 res, etc.
So track the damage you eat on average, and you can easily assess what helps you and your team more.
I think it would be easy to figure something like that out, for +heal, mana reg, int., etc.
Hi, fairly new to the forums but this thread caught my attention.
I play a resto shaman for arena 3/0/58 spec, i play 2V2 with a Soul link warlock hybrid, and a 5V5 varies with classes. At the moment i have 7716 hp/8948mp, 1200 healing, 109MP5, and 76 Resil
On the discussion of which gems to socket in my arena gear I have major problems because on some arena fights, i outlast them with mostly PVE gear. Then there are fights where i have to survive the burst.
I guess my real question is which gems should i socket in my gear, Stam gems or healing gems?
Here's my advice on this question, since I've debated it myself.
Whether you're going to be seriously hit is mostly a matter of the first 30-60 seconds of the fight. Get a (almost) full stam/resilence set and start in that. If you're attacked quickly, stick with it and do your best to survive, if not and the fight looks like one where mana/5, mana pool, and +healing can play a big role in winning, hit your itemrack/outfitter hotkey to switch to a PvE type set, and your non-weapon pieces should switch automatically next time you get out of combat for a second.
I've found that to be a pretty decent strategy in 5v5 particularly on my druid, but I can see it applying to 2v2 on a shaman as well.
Do you refer to hobbes/my posts, or some excel sheet I am not aware of, but very intressted in!?
That is exactly the point, while finding a balance between offensive stats (+damage, +heal, etc.) and deffensive stats (Resilience, Sta, etc.) is rather difficult, they can be analysed alone, pretty well.
Sta and resilience for example:
Initially you come up with 1 sta = 2,7 res, that is for burst games, sta is way more efficient than res (add that gems bring 8 res vs. 12 sta...)
But if you use 0,036% damage reduction per res point, after eating 27,8 k damage you will be at 1 sta = 1 res, at 55,6 k 2 sta = 1 res, etc.
So track the damage you eat on average, and you can easily assess what helps you and your team more.
I think it would be easy to figure something like that out, for +heal, mana reg, int., etc.
I am referring to a spreadsheet by I think one of the top arena players. Sadly a HDD crash later I do not have it nor can I find it.
Do not matter how much you play, you will never get the carrot.
But if you use 0,036% damage reduction per res point, after eating 27,8 k damage you will be at 1 sta = 1 res, at 55,6 k 2 sta = 1 res, etc.
So track the damage you eat on average, and you can easily assess what helps you and your team more.
It's not that straight forward, fight a team of 5 affliction warlocks and your 400 resilience does absolutely nothing to the damage intake, while against non-dot classes it makes a huge difference.
That said, locks and shadowpriests are gaining power all the time while we stack resilience.
It's not that straight forward, fight a team of 5 affliction warlocks and your 400 resilience does absolutely nothing to the damage intake, while against non-dot classes it makes a huge difference.
That said, locks and shadowpriests are gaining power all the time while we stack resilience.
There are a couple of ups and downs for resilience and stamina. Concernig the affliction lock/shadowpriests, they may encounter the "out of combat item rack" problem soon. Just switch your sta./resilience gear with your sta/sahdow resistance gear.
I guess in the highly competative enviroment this will show up pretty soon, if they do not use it already.
Originally Posted by CasT
I am referring to a spreadsheet by I think one of the top arena players. Sadly a HDD crash later I do not have it nor can I find it.
To bad, would have loved to see it..., if you find it, let me know.
It's not that straight forward, fight a team of 5 affliction warlocks and your 400 resilience does absolutely nothing to the damage intake, while against non-dot classes it makes a huge difference.
That said, locks and shadowpriests are gaining power all the time while we stack resilience.
Or people will invest in SR gear -- which will be particualrly devastating at the 2v2 level. A stacked team of warlocks and shadowpriests at 5v5 would be terribly owned by this too.
2.) 2 x res / 39.42 = % crit multiplier (cm) reduction
3.) crit damage caluclates with: base damage x (cm - 2 x res / 3942)
res = sum of resilience points
cc = average enemy crit chance
cm = average enemy crit multiplier (2 will be used for simplyfication later on)
the % overall damage reduction per resilience point is:
[2 x cc + cm - 1 - 2 x res / 3942] / [39.42 x (1 + crit x (cm - 1))]
with cm = 2 this simplifies to:
[1 + (cc - 2 x res / 3942) / (1 + cc)] / 39.42
with cc = 0.25 and res = 300:
-1 resilience point will reduce overall damage by 0.0273 %
So at 10 x 100 / 0.0273 = 36630 unmitigated damage will 1 sta be equal to 1 resilience. Since 1 sta = 1.5 resilience concerning item budget points, it will be worth replacing sta gems with resilience gems at 36630 x 1.5 = 54945 unmitigated average damage.
Resilience also has another major aspect, it reduces damage volatility greatly.
Damage thru critting hits is reduced by,
(2 x cc + cm - 2 x res / 3942) / (39.42 x cc x cm)
% per resilience point. This simplifies with cm = 2 to:
[1+ (1 - res / 3942) / (cc)] / 39.42
again with cc = 0.25 and res = 300:
-1 resilience point will reduce damage taken of criting hits by 0.1191 %
So if you only look at criting damage, 1 resilience point will equal 1 sta at 8396 unmitigated crit. damage.
Some other facts:
-resilience will reduce chance of crit depending talents/skills on your enemys side.
-resilience does not help vs. damage that does not crit, DoTs for example (Afflocks!)
-resilience crit. chance reduction is capped at the crit. chance of your enemy, some of its mitigation will be lost. (For example, 300 resilience will reduce cc by 7,6%, if your oponent has 5% crit chance, 2,6% will be lost)
Thanks to Cast, Alcaras and Kaubel for help in one or the other way.
05/14/07, 10:39 PM
