It may just be me, but DQing people who break the ToS was really a inevitability instead of a surprise. I just thought more competitive teams would be prepared and expecting this (alot of full teams rerolling for start of arena).
The *only* proof Blizzard has as to who plays an account is the name on the account (and the name on the CC). What did you expect, exactly?
Which is the result of Blizzards own regulations that do not allow changing the name on the account. Blizzards ineptitude is hardly the fault of the players.
As for who plays the account? I mean what does it matter? It's not like anyone would send someone else to play instead of them? I mean it would be possible but unless the other person is a better player it would be counterproductive. And that raises the question why wasn't that player on the team in the first place.
I'd say the proof that x is x comes from x's teammates as well from his display of skill.
That's what the sports is about, no? Who's the best and all that.
Edit. Xantcha I wouldn't say it's inevitable. It's ridiculous.
.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Which is the result of Blizzards own regulations that do not allow changing the name on the account. Blizzards ineptitude is hardly the fault of the players.
Not allowing account trading/purchasing/etc is ineptitude? I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic there. The only reasonable case that I read about was the guy who registered the account with the CC owner's name, the other people bought/traded/were given the accounts they play on. That's never been allowed, it's just difficult to enforce for the larger population so most people don't get caught.
You can argue all you want over how stupid the rule is, but you can't argue that Blizzard incorrectly DQ'ed the player.
If Blizzard decides to implement a rule preventing left-handers playing then I would expect left-handers being DQ'ed.
I'm sure identity does matter when large sums of money are involved, when Blizzard are providing transport for players, when Blizzard are spending large amounts of money.
You can argue all you want over how stupid the rule is, but you can't argue that Blizzard incorrectly DQ'ed the player.
.
That pretty much sums it up in a nut shell. People need to realize that this is Blizzard's FIRST WoW tournament. If anyone remember the first days of Molten Core, from FOH getting suspended for their handling of Golemagg adds, this tournament is leaps and bounds in terms of customer service. I think the lessons learned from this first tournament will help make the second one a success. Everyone will know what to expect, who can and cannot play.
I think it's funny how we went from paying Blizzard for the privilege of killing Ragnaros to making money off of them in the same game (granted only 3 teams will make money in the finals, but it's still funny).
You can argue all you want over how stupid the rule is, but you can't argue that Blizzard incorrectly DQ'ed the player.
*gasp* I didn't!?
My point was that they were DQ'd because the Blizzards ineptitude to provide alternatives.
Yes they were using bought/traded accounts. Give them a warning and work out a solution?
To simply disqualify them is in my mind the worst PR move Blizzard could've made.
Spells like Epic Failure to me. Then again that's nothing new to Blizzard.
After all it should be in their interest to see the World Championship set a high standard if they wish to display WoW as a possible eSport.
Originally Posted by Xantcha
I'm sure identity does matter when large sums of money are involved, when Blizzard are providing transport for players, when Blizzard are spending large amounts of money.
And I'm sure Blizzard could've worked it out if they had chose to. It's not like the DQ'd players are "random John Doe" off the street. Team Pandemic and some of the other teams are well known and established teams. Some even have sponsors.
I'm well aware that Blizzard has the right to impose rules and regulations on these tournaments, but am I the only one who thinks these rules should abide to Common Sense?
Doogless, actually yes in my mind not providing account trading/purchasing methods is ineptitude on their part. I do not see why providing it or allowing it would somehow have a detrimental effect. I do belive that it's a ridiculous rule that should be removed (but knowing Blizzard it probably won't be).
That aside I'm not going to debate if an account is property or not, but the fact that accounts DO have real-life value remains. And I wouldn't like someone telling me what I can do with my real-life property. Would you?
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
My point was that they were DQ'd because the Blizzards ineptitude to provide alternatives.
I guess this sums up our side on the issue. Blizz has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their game. Fine, i accept that. But I'm going to QQ when they do really stupid things, in the hopes that they don't do them again/reverse them. Read my post on pg 4(last post, so I think no one noticed it) for what I believe are some good alternatives to what happened.
That aside I'm not going to debate if an account is property or not, but the fact that accounts DO have real-life value remains. And I wouldn't like someone telling me what I can do with my real-life property. Would you?
It's not your property. Your account ultimately belongs to Blizzard, so they get to decide what you can and can't do with it.
you acknowledge and agree that you shall have no ownership or other property interest in the Account, and you further acknowledge and agree that all rights in and to the Account are and shall forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Blizzard.
Ugh, while american courts have made rulings in favor of Browse Wrap Agreements being binding there is hardly enough precedence and it's uncertain if international courts would make similar rulings.
Without evidence that the agreement was easy to read and easy to find, a court will assume that a user could not reasonably have been expected to know about it and the agreement will not be enforced.
I'd say it's possible to argue over the ownership based on this.
Also for reference the european tos: http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/termsofuse.html
A bit more "confusing" I'd say.
Therefor I'd say it's not established who "ultimately" owns my account. It's disputable.
Why is it ineptitude to not allow players to sell/trade/etc accounts?
Because as I stated before, the accounts have actual value. To blizzard perhaps not, but these accounts have real monetary value. Celandro pointed out two rather good examples on that.
Anyway I'm off to catch some shuteye, hope you'll have lots of constructive posts that relate to the original topic for me to read when I get back~!
My point was that they were DQ'd because the Blizzards ineptitude to provide alternatives.
Yes they were using bought/traded accounts. Give them a warning and work out a solution?
To simply disqualify them is in my mind the worst PR move Blizzard could've made.
Spells like Epic Failure to me. Then again that's nothing new to Blizzard.
After all it should be in their interest to see the World Championship set a high standard if they wish to display WoW as a possible eSport.
And I'm sure Blizzard could've worked it out if they had chose to. It's not like the DQ'd players are "random John Doe" off the street. Team Pandemic and some of the other teams are well known and established teams. Some even have sponsors.
I'm well aware that Blizzard has the right to impose rules and regulations on these tournaments, but am I the only one who thinks these rules should abide to Common Sense?
Doogless, actually yes in my mind not providing account trading/purchasing methods is ineptitude on their part. I do not see why providing it or allowing it would somehow have a detrimental effect. I do belive that it's a ridiculous rule that should be removed (but knowing Blizzard it probably won't be).
That aside I'm not going to debate if an account is property or not, but the fact that accounts DO have real-life value remains. And I wouldn't like someone telling me what I can do with my real-life property. Would you?
While it is obvious, that the whole tournement is nothing but a farce, the fact still holds, that it is utterly impossible to let players play and win price money with ineligable accounts.
Teams that do not suffer from disqualification issues could easily force disqualification and they would be right to do so.
It is a mess, but there is no way to use "common sense". They didn´t obey the tournement rules, so they have to be disqualified.
The only way around that, would be to sit down with all (legally) qualified teams and make them sign a agreement, in which some teams would sign away their hopes for the finals..., I do not see how everybody would sign that, and it would just make things even more complicated.
I don't see why they need to require people own an account at all. Make a team on the tournament server with replicas of all the characters on the roster and then let the team have at it. If they want to swap characters they use, put in a ringer, or whatever, let them do it. That would hopefully also circumvent the gambling laws, as you don't have to have paid money to attend (as you don't have to have an account).
To all the sheep still crying OMG THE EULA SAYS players were DQ'd for as much as having their parents name on the account since the account was opened under their CC and as such the name was on the account. Now tell me again about the horrible cheaters, should should have known, etc, etc, etc.
To all the sheep still crying OMG THE EULA SAYS players were DQ'd for as much as having their parents name on the account since the account was opened under their CC and as such the name was on the account. Now tell me again about the horrible cheaters, should should have known, etc, etc, etc.
One player, one player claimed that a different name on the account, which he tried to change, was the reason for his DQ. Blizzard failed in helping fix that error, but as was said: how do you know he really was the account user from the very beginning? How does Blizzard know this and prove it, to prevent people from changing account names as a loophole?
To all the sheep still crying OMG THE EULA SAYS players were DQ'd for as much as having their parents name on the account since the account was opened under their CC and as such the name was on the account. Now tell me again about the horrible cheaters, should should have known, etc, etc, etc.
Damn you are right my sheep eyes have seen the light thanks to the great and all powerful Xi, master of the PVP universe and ultimate seer of all global rules and video game knowledge. Blizzard should throw out all the rules and set up a giant cage with 200 lan PCs, 40 teams walk in 5 players walk out. I'll grab my shotgun and head over to the finals, maybe as a spectator I can jump in at the last minute and end up "winning" the final prize through creative team elimination.
It isn't just Blizzard "messing up" this type of thing, the same thing happend with the first Guild Wars championship (closest game type to the WoW arena stuff although it only takes maybe 100 hours to max level and properly gear your GW character).
Our guild had a hard time fielding a full team and we required members to be over 18 to join. It was so bad they had to drop what was a planned 16 team bracket down to 12 because if it would have gone any lower matchups would have been something like Phoenix Suns vs. Glendale, AZ YMCA Youth Womens Team. ArenaNet required that everyone in the tournament have a valid passport because the finals were being held in Taipei.
Ugh, while american courts have made rulings in favor of Browse Wrap Agreements being binding there is hardly enough precedence and it's uncertain if international courts would make similar rulings.
Even if it were nonbinding, all that means is you can freely terminate the contract at any time, which would involve uninstalling WoW and cancelling your account. It doesn't mean you can just ignore the EULA.
Also, mearly DQing people could be considered a warning, considering they list permanent account closure as the punishment for trading accounts.
As much as I think Blizz needs to add a legitimate way to character transfer, I also have to agree that this is incredible shortsight by the top teams. The phrase "lay low" comes to mind. When doing some against the law, rules, EULA or whatever, it's generally agreed upon that lying low is a good option. As much as I think the DQ's are a bad move by Blizzard, I just can't think that these top teams didn't at least once in their existance think "What happens if we get caught for trading accounts?"
I just think it shows a lack of responsibility. I mean, did these guys even think to get their passport ahead of time, or are they going to blame the system for that as well?
I just can't think that these top teams didn't at least once in their existance think "What happens if we get caught for trading accounts?"
I can believe it. That it is against the EULA and TOS is not something most people would even consider. That it is against the rules is so stupid many people wouldn't believe it unless they were shown it. It is the worst rule Blizz has ever put in place. It is something that happens regularly and will continue to happen. They need to recognize this.
Originally Posted by Zyla
Plus, my anus is painfree and still virginal!
Originally Posted by madsushi
Honestly, if you're any good, then you know about the changes as soon as they happen and you adjust. If you're not any good, Blacksen's already benched you by now, and so who cares.
First of all, Blizzard would be in a position of no credibility whatsoever if they did not enforce their own terms of service when the information was literally right in front of their faces.
Now, as far as the people who legitimately have playing one account over the lifetime of the account, and have the credit card in someone else's name for some reason, that seems like a major error by Blizzard. If they're going so far as to arrange travel plans and the like for a certain set of people, it seems they should at least take the trouble to investigate account discrepancies on a case-by-case basis. So in these cases, Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot.
But people who actually had traded accounts: what else would they expect? If you eBay an account, you probably realize that competing in a very public Blizzard-hosted tournament is a privilege you're giving up.
I can believe it. That it is against the EULA and TOS is not something most people would even consider. That it is against the rules is so stupid many people wouldn't believe it unless they were shown it. It is the worst rule Blizz has ever put in place. It is something that happens regularly and will continue to happen. They need to recognize this.
First of all, I agree with you in that this is a stupid rule. There are alot of stupid rules, regulations, and laws that exist though, and it's wise to follow them until they are changed or removed. When I financed my vehicle, the loaner required me to get Comprehensive and Collision added onto my insurance on top of what is legally required by the state of California. I'm not too rich, and I really don't want to add that to my premium. It's still a rule though, and I still have to follow it.
As far as you thinking that these top players are oblivious to the fact that they might not be able to compete, I have to call BS. Account trading and gold buying is a very large issue in online gaming right now. My friend's who don't game still have heard or read about it through online publications and articles. Blizzard has made it very clear that these things are against the ToS, and I don't see how these guys would think that they could stay in such a huge spotlight and not get found out.
Anyways, I still think players should be able to buy and sell accounts and all that jazz.
To all the sheep still crying OMG THE EULA SAYS players were DQ'd for as much as having their parents name on the account since the account was opened under their CC and as such the name was on the account. Now tell me again about the horrible cheaters, should should have known, etc, etc, etc.
With one exception, all the players admitted to being given accounts/buying accounts/etc. I feel bad for the one guy that got screwed by putting the account under his parent's name, and agree cases like that allow for an exception, but that's ONE case of all the people DQed. So I'm a sheep for thinking people who buy/trade accounts should be DQed? Please, enlighten me with your flawless logic on this matter.
Yes Doogless, blindly following along and agreeing they should be disqualified means you are sheep. There is no reason for any of them to have been disqualified. There is no reason for the rule to exist. I have to agree with XI, parroting the rules and blindly agreeing is stupid and should always be discouraged.
Edit - He has no reason that is why it being a sheep. A post like that is barely above trolling a deserves the response it got.
Last edited by Cireena : 05/15/07 at 4:38 PM.
Reason: For the nameless message
Originally Posted by Zyla
Plus, my anus is painfree and still virginal!
Originally Posted by madsushi
Honestly, if you're any good, then you know about the changes as soon as they happen and you adjust. If you're not any good, Blacksen's already benched you by now, and so who cares.
05/14/07, 9:40 PM
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