Trying to "fix" Av - Page 3

Shadowed · 05/15/07, 12:21 PM

In highly competetive ABs, it was all about the initial encounter at the blacksmith. The side that got it, won the AB in 90% of the cases. If you have good deff tactics, it is almost impossible to break the classic triangel. Our ususal set up was 4 3 2, with 6 deffers waiting mounted on epics at the crossing, and no more leaving the crossing, than are needed to support a attacked flag.
Even wih blind, sap fear or what ever you can not tap, because a mage or hunter will be there in no time interrupting.

This is the reason why I loved AB so much, it was a bigger arena fight (10 v 10) at the blacksmith, and you could be sure its over after 30 minutes, or so.
WS was a mess, the team with the most dudus won, or even worse, it toke 1h because of deff and hiding tactics...

Not really, the side that moved the fastest for assaulting and defending won, BS usually didn't matter as long as you knew how to send a large amount of people to one node while others attacks the rest.

Bowman are a joke in DB, get a stealth class whos not an idiot to run in, stand on the third step and you can capture the flag and the bowman despawn if they weren't put into combat.

Kinv · 05/15/07, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Not really, the side that moved the fastest for assaulting and defending won, BS usually didn't matter as long as you knew how to send a large amount of people to one node while others attacks the rest.

Whoever had the BS almost ALWAYS won..... it's next to impossible to take a flag if the team has the 3 triangle points.... unless like I said the extremely rare case of the team screwing up and not having the right classes on D letting u CC/Cap.... which usually held for about a second before more people showed up and cap'd it back. Trying to trick the team into over supporting 1 side or the other doesn't really work at all with a Hunter @ Lumbermill or even BS who can see and track pretty much all the enemy movements on the map. Atleast w/ EoTS style flags caping the BS flag would have been possible instead of the team holding BS just needing to survive until the next wave rezs and starts AEing on it again. Which thinking about, perhaps another good change would be to make the rez timer a default time of 15 -> 20 seconds so there's no luck involved in catching an instant rez or getting screwed on a 30 second rez.

Cireena · 05/15/07, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kinv

Whoever had the BS almost ALWAYS won..... it's next to impossible to take a flag if the team has the 3 triangle points.... .

I never found this to be the case in any of our pre-made matches. When we ran AB for honor post 2.0 hitting we ignored the BS till after we had secured 3 other nodes. We NEVEr had a pitched battle over it that had any real meaning on the outcome of the BG.

Shadowed · 05/15/07, 12:42 PM

Maybe for your server, and no it's not.

If you want to send 10 people to the BS at the start, go for it i'll be busy sending everyone else to secure the rest that you had to leave with less guards.

Drully · 05/15/07, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Maybe for your server, and no it's not.

If you want to send 10 people to the BS at the start, go for it i'll be busy sending everyone else to secure the rest that you had to leave with less guards.

Well I do not know how competetive your servers were, and about what kind of teams you talk. I am talking about 15 vs. 15 pvp players, who play together every day and are all on TS.
I can assure you that you will not have a chance to hold the mill and the mine if one of them holds the blacksmith. Sooner or later one of the two will be lost, and there is the triangel again.
I have played AB for 3 months daily, I do not think that there is any other valid tactic in general, but trying to get the blacksmith.
We tried other tactics when we found out that on a specific day our class/skill set up would not be enough to win against the 2 real oponents. Sometimes we won with them, but usually it just meant a day of losing the intressting matches.

Kinv · 05/15/07, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Maybe for your server, and no it's not.

If you want to send 10 people to the BS at the start, go for it i'll be busy sending everyone else to secure the rest that you had to leave with less guards.

So you completely gave up the most important cap in the BG and all you end up achieving is shifting that first battle to Lumber mill or Farm? Attacking either of those points is easy to see and predict and counter and now your team just lost BS and the entire game.

Even if you do manage to take one of them it's incredibly easy to break a D that doesn't have Blacksmith. A defense spread from Mine/Stables/Farm, LM/Stables/Farm, or LM/stables/Mine is worthless.

Gulaja · 05/15/07, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

.Bowman are a joke in DB, get a stealth class whos not an idiot to run in, stand on the third step and you can capture the flag and the bowman despawn if they weren't put into combat.

You are assuming that there is a stealth class in the particular AV who isn't an idiot, and that's a rather strong assumption for WoW in general, let alone AV. I certainly don't mind Blizzard "requiring" skill to win, I just want it even on both sides. I played Horde as a Rogue from Day 1 till BC and rerolled Alliance Paladin in expansion, and boy am I glad to play AV as Alliance. The natural flow of battle for us is just easier. People get stuck defending because of the SH Tower chokepoint. They have it easier with the Horde Archers and NPC's in the base, it just requires less common sense than the Horde. Assuming everyone in AV is bad, it's only fair to make both sides have even terrain/NPC issues.

Drully · 05/15/07, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Gulaja

You are assuming that there is a stealth class in the particular AV who isn't an idiot, and that's a rather strong assumption for WoW in general, let alone AV. I certainly don't mind Blizzard "requiring" skill to win, I just want it even on both sides. I played Horde as a Rogue from Day 1 till BC and rerolled Alliance Paladin in expansion, and boy am I glad to play AV as Alliance. The natural flow of battle for us is just easier. People get stuck defending because of the SH Tower chokepoint. They have it easier with the Horde Archers and NPC's in the base, it just requires less common sense than the Horde. Assuming everyone in AV is bad, it's only fair to make both sides have even terrain/NPC issues.

Yes, these are the most important issues about AV.
The stone natural defense vs. the ice "ups it is taped?" defense. It is the reason why the horde virtually HAS to let alliance get snow, so that more alliance players spawn at snow and less at stone, so that you egt a chance to tap it.
That is of course, if both sides are not intelligent. In this case they do not care about each other and just do the 40 men offense pve game, which brings the most honor ("Wave and good bye!").

So to solve these two main problems, you have to change the set up of stone and ice, and change the bonus honor system.

Oh, and the castle of horde needs an up, or alliance a down grade.

Shadowed · 05/15/07, 1:15 PM

Well I do not know how competetive your servers were, and about what kind of teams you talk. I am talking about 15 vs. 15 pvp players, who play together every day and are all on TS.
I can assure you that you will not have a chance to hold the mill and the mine if one of them holds the blacksmith. Sooner or later one of the two will be lost, and there is the triangel again.
I have played AB for 3 months daily, I do not think that there is any other valid tactic in general, but trying to get the blacksmith.
We tried other tactics when we found out that on a specific day our class/skill set up would not be enough to win against the 2 real oponents. Sometimes we won with them, but usually it just meant a day of losing the intressting matches.

Yes I know exactly what you're talking about, and don't think that I haven't played AB a lot too.

People who are too strict are the ones who lose AB, the ones who say "We MUSt have X" always lose because they put too much importance in one node and don't defend or pay attention to everything else. AB isn't a strict map, you can win with or without BS, and you don't have to go for it first.

Do you play Chess using the same strategy everytime? No, you adapt to what the other player does.

Kinv · 05/15/07, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Yes I know exactly what you're talking about, and don't think that I haven't played AB a lot too.

People who are too strict are the ones who lose AB, the ones who say "We MUSt have X" always lose because they put too much importance in one node and don't defend or pay attention to everything else.

The people who win are the people who put more importance in BS while still paying attention to everything else, it seems like your using a strat that only works against lesser teams....when I used to play AB neither team made the mistake of "forgetting about a node" stupid mistakes like that just don't happen at the higher lvl of competitive play in Pvp.

Shadowed · 05/15/07, 1:19 PM

Interesting, I didn't realize they had replaced PvPers with robots.

If you're sending 10 people to BS, you are forgetting about a node.

Gulaja · 05/15/07, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Drully

Oh, and the castle of horde needs an up, or alliance a down grade.

Pulling the Alliance GY/Flag south east so it's directly west to South-DB might solve some of those issues without removing the NPCs. I think the NPCs are close in number between Alliance/Horde, just the layout of the Alliance base forces NPC v. Horde fights. Bring the GY closer to the South tower enforces tower cap but also will change the flow of battle out of the way of the BS/Ram NPCs.

Kinv · 05/15/07, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Interesting, I didn't realize they had replaced PvPers with robots.

If you're sending 10 people to BS, you are forgetting about a node.

You're forgetting a Hunter can essentially see the entire map, 2-3 @ Farm, 3 @ LM, 3-4 @ BS, that leaves 5- > 7 people free to support any of the sides. A hunter can Eagle eye to the complete other side of the map and w/ a decent computer can see exactly how many people you're sending to each node and tell his team so they can adjust to defend against it. This is even easier once you have the node since you don't even need to match their numbers, you can have 2-3 people less then them and still easily hold a flag while losing the actual battle do to how the flags work and the rez timer.

Anyways back on topic this thread is about fixing AV, not how completely retarded AB is.

Randor · 05/15/07, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Drully

I am talking about 15 vs. 15 pvp players, who play together every day and are all on TS.

If that's the case, it should be a 5-cap win within a minute. But I haven't seen anymore than half an AB be a group at any time, maybe 10.

Kinv · 05/15/07, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Randor

If that's the case, it should be a 5-cap win within a minute. But I haven't seen anymore than half an AB be a group at any time, maybe 10.

Pretty sure he's saying both teams are guild grps on vent.