Heavy melee arena teams/ multiple POM pyro mages counter???

ZIN · 05/19/07, 10:40 PM

Recently my 5v5 arena team got off the ground we are now closing in on 1800 rating, and coming across some difficult arena team comboes such as multiple PoM spec'ed mages and heavy melee arena teams.

i.e.

mage mage hunter paladin priest (dual pyro)

or

warrior warrior paladin paladin shaman (dual MS)

Our team consists of paladin, mage, priest, rogue, warrior.

Myself being a warrior in decent resilience/dmg gear (around 155 resiliencewith 1500 ap 32% crit, tier 2 crafted axe) i am noticing a distinct difficulty vs those kinds teams rather then anything else, the dual POM pyro mages power up and FF one of my team mates down most of the time me, and the melee based teams with a tri healer spec tend to focus on our priest and paladin, any one has any suggestions on how to counter those teams any input would be greatly apritiated

yuri · 05/20/07, 2:38 AM

Well if you guys have a shaman on your team smart use of grounding totem would solve the double mage combo, i think they are only a problem at your current rating as it seems to me in the higher ratings all mages tend to go iceblock and thus instant pyro is no longer possible for them.
ALternatively you could try to use spellreflect(you might however need to respec in order to have the necessary rage after stanceswitch).

Searix · 05/20/07, 5:17 AM

Get enough hp to mitigate it

Thelyna · 05/20/07, 8:12 AM

Getting enough HP to counter two trinket mages ... brilliant suggestion that.

If you can, mess with their targeting, just don't let them get off their omgwtfbbq combo. Play around pillars, have ToT frames up so you can see who they're targeting (I've heard good things about Arena Live Frames, never used it myself though) and get them out of LoS of the mages. Alternatively, go with the theory that the best defense is a good offense, combine that with the fact that as arc/fire they are unlikely* to have iceblock, and put pressure on them from the word go.

Can't offer much help with the paladinx2/warriorx2/shaman group though.

*In theory you could get PoM, Pyro and Iceblock in one build .. it wouldn't be a *good* build, but it could happen.

Vhad · 05/20/07, 9:29 AM

It is a brilliant suggestion, because the combo doesn't always work and if it doesn't crit it's not much more then ~8k dmg and that's not difficult to mitigate.

28 11 22 is not bad, I've played with that in 5v5 and it works pretty well, it's just not the most common of specs.

yuri · 05/20/07, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Thelyna

Getting enough HP to counter two trinket mages ... brilliant suggestion that.

If you can, mess with their targeting, just don't let them get off their omgwtfbbq combo. Play around pillars, have ToT frames up so you can see who they're targeting (I've heard good things about Arena Live Frames, never used it myself though) and get them out of LoS of the mages. Alternatively, go with the theory that the best defense is a good offense, combine that with the fact that as arc/fire they are unlikely* to have iceblock, and put pressure on them from the word go.

Can't offer much help with the paladinx2/warriorx2/shaman group though.

*In theory you could get PoM, Pyro and Iceblock in one build .. it wouldn't be a *good* build, but it could happen.

you would still lack arcane might tough, and pyro blast without it just isnt that powerful, so ya you are right, it really wouldnt be a good build.

apart form the grounding totem you could either mess with los, stack massive hp, or if you are 100% certain that they will just go for you, you might want to consider stacking fire resistance...

Vhad · 05/20/07, 12:30 PM

I don't get why you are saying pom pyro with shatter is bad just because you dont have AP... It's just not a very common spec, but it definatly isn't bad.

Kalman · 05/20/07, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by yuri

you would still lack arcane might tough, and pyro blast without it just isnt that powerful, so ya you are right, it really wouldnt be a good build.

AP is a 30% damage boost.

Shatter is (assuming a 15% base crit rate and ignoring ignite ticks, since the burst is what kills) a:

.15*1.5 + .85 = 1.075
.65*1.5 + .35 = 1.325

~23% damage boost, but whenever frozen rather than just every 3 minutes.

PoM/Pyro/Iceblock is interesting because it offers mages a lot of flexibility in terms of damage delivery, and it screws up the metagame - when you see that PoM Pyro, the *immediate* reaction is "fire mage, FF him".

Then he iceblocks.

Lord BEEF · 05/20/07, 12:46 PM

Double warrior teams are generally weaker against high armor teams. I know our team struggled quite a bit against a team that ran a moonkin.

Against AP pyro mages you want to instagib them before they instagib you, since you lack grounding totem or nature's swiftness.

Yes · 05/20/07, 2:41 PM

Generally, a mage can not cast anything without a bop on him when things are hitting him and using pummel/kick/etc to silence him.

Stick one rogue on one mage, warrior on the other mage, give freedom depending on situation, have mage and priest deadzone/los hunter watch paladin, kick every cast and they won't ever think about casting. Wound/Crippling for rogue. I bet they are killing your priest or mage because hunter takes him down to 70~%.

Warrior teams: It is quite easy to force a paladin to bubble, mass dispel it, counterspell the other paladin (Or force him to bubble) and burn down the paladin with a rogue and a warrior, while having the mage keep one warrior off your priest, and keeping both off for the mass dispel.

Ragnor · 05/20/07, 5:06 PM

Mage's without iceblock are extremely squishy and generally die very quickly. If members of your team are dying to pyro x2 they aren't abusing range and LoS properly, probably don't have enough stamina/resilience either.

Calantus · 05/20/07, 8:07 PM

This is just in 3v3s but when we go up against a double AP/Pom/Pyro team I like to have one of the mages silenced right as we engage (either my silence if I'm shadow, or our mage's Imp CS). It breaks up the alpha strike and generally the other mage has blown all his cooldowns to no result beyond getting himself purge/dispell spammed and his target spam healed. You still have the problem of one mage having all cooldowns ready so you have to keep everyone's HP above bursting range, but you eliminate the instadeath on engagement you can get otherwise.

ZIN · 05/20/07, 8:53 PM

Originally Posted by Ragnor

Mage's without iceblock are extremely squishy and generally die very quickly. If members of your team are dying to pyro x2 they aren't abusing range and LoS properly, probably don't have enough stamina/resilience either.

i have 13000 hp in my arena set with 159 resiliece, and resiliece doesnt do anything against spell dmg or dots x2 pyro fire blast basicaly incinirates me, how can you los something that is invisible? thanks for the resistances suggestion i am going to pick some of the badges gear up today, also will look into investing into a shaman on our team

any suggestions for a high plate tri healer teams counters?

Grailyn · 05/21/07, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by ZIN

i have 13000 hp in my arena set with 159 resiliece, and resiliece doesnt do anything against spell dmg

O RLY..

Originally Posted by ZIN

any suggestions for a high plate tri healer teams counters?

Hunter + Warlock + kiting = free points. Anyone team with 3 melee's is a gimmick team that needs to be punished.

AndrewCarr · 05/21/07, 8:21 AM

I have 161 res and about 13k hp(with kings) in my 2v2, and I've never had trouble against the double pom pyro teams(although I should respec/regem for another 1.5k hp). Incapacitating one mage(silencing then scatter shotting) helps, but honestly has never been necessary; my pally partner simply heals through it. If you're up against 2 pyro mages and a physical dps, you could always get BoP(for the physical dps) and with 2 healers or so(+shield from the priest) I really don't see how you're dying, unless people aren't on the ball with heals.