[Fear] Nerf or? - Page 3

Bibdy · 06/04/07, 2:53 PM

I think you're going a little overboard there. I dunno if I've ever seen a Shaman successfully Frost Shock/Ghost Wolf away. They have as much trouble with snares like Hamstring as we do. And how does a Warrior try to soak damage? Swap to Defensive Stance and Reflect? They don't do a lot of damage in that stance. Every class struggles under focus fire, but that's kind of the point. No class should be able to recklessly charge at the opposing team, deal insane damage and not worry about death. Warriors are perhaps the only ones with that luxury but even they take an enormous risk by being in Berserker Stance. The number of Warriors we've torn to shreds first in 5v5 arenas because of their own overconfidence is not to be underestimated.

The 2m cooldown PVP trinket is a must for any Warlock out there now. If you don't have that trinket equipped in BGs, Arenas or any other PVP there's something wrong with your head. Its the most worthwhile change to the entire class since they made Intensity affect all Destruction spells. Those two changes alone have made an absolute unmitigated terror out of me in PVP.

Tahapenes · 06/04/07, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

I think you're going a little overboard there. I dunno if I've ever seen a Shaman successfully Frost Shock/Ghost Wolf away. They have as much trouble with snares like Hamstring as we do. And how does a Warrior try to soak damage? Swap to Defensive Stance and Reflect? They don't do a lot of damage in that stance. Every class struggles under focus fire, but that's kind of the point. No class should be able to recklessly charge at the opposing team, deal insane damage and not worry about death. Warriors are perhaps the only ones with that luxury but even they take an enormous risk by being in Berserker Stance. The number of Warriors we've torn to shreds first in 5v5 arenas because of their own overconfidence is not to be underestimated.

I'm not talking about charging the other team, just getting into a one on one situation where you have a melee in your face (such as what can happen in 2v2 areans or 3v3 areans and sometimes, rarely though, happens in 5v5 areans). What are a Priest and Warlock going to do to escape that situation? All the other seven classes have an option for escape, Warlocks aren't as screwed as Priests are due to DC, but with the propencity of fear removing trinkets/powers, Priests are in desperate need of an escape ability and Warlocks could use a little help as well. If a Shaman is one on one, they have the ability to put a slowing effect on someone and escape them, a Warrior atleast has 40% DR when someone's in melee range with them and can hopefully survive the onslaught till someone shows up to help them out. If a Priest or a Warlock is in melee range with someone, they have to pray that the other person doesn't have their fear removal available to try to gain some distance. Some classes also have better escape mechanics for multiple people on them (Mage with FN/Blink, Paladins with Bubble and heal, Hunters potentially with Frost Trap and FDing to clear target). The problem is that Warlocks and Priests, especially, don't have an effective escape mechanic, so what's wrong with asking for an escape mechanic that works? What I'm asking for is an "oh crap" button that works, not something that is busted because of so many other mechanics.

Bibdy · 06/04/07, 5:31 PM

Interesting that you didn't quote the part about the PVP trinket. Its reliable and has a 2 minute cooldown.

• Shadowed · 06/04/07, 5:58 PM

The changes to a couple of classes trinkets to remove stuns too is a big buff, makes it harder to due from being stunlocked + AP PoM Pyro'ed.

Not every class is going to have great survivablity or an "oh shit" button with all talents, some of it is in the form of more passive buffs.

Tahapenes · 06/04/07, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

Interesting that you didn't quote the part about the PVP trinket. Its reliable and has a 2 minute cooldown.

My problem is that there is no good escape mechanism for Priests or Warlocks, moreso Priests since their form of escape just about everyone has a way of breaking. Me breaking someone elses CC on me is not what I have the problem with, I have a problem with not having an effective escape route as Priest and a marginal one as a Warlock.

I don't care if Fear broke on damage so long as I had a way to get away. This is why I wouldn't mind seeing PS become a horror effect for 4 seconds or so, it would give a Priest enough time to escape, and if they did the same to HoT, that would be nice too, but I see it more needed by Priests.

• Shadowed · 06/04/07, 7:07 PM

Death coil is already annoying enough on a 2 minute cooldown, let alone giving a class an IAE Death coil on a 30 second cooldown that can't be countered except a dispel

Xunwael · 06/05/07, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tahapenes

Quick question, have you ever played an Alliance Priest or Warlock against Horde in PvP?

No, but I've played a horde priest and horde warlock against hordes in PvP, not that I really see the point of the question.

If you're spec'd Demonic Embrace.

No, regardless. Even in identical gear you'll still have more hitpoints than a priest or a mage, and that's not considering that the priest and the mage can't go for maxing out HP, since they need mana to do damage while life tap can turn HP into mana in a pinch.

You'll get one, not likely to get more

That's a good 2 - 3000 HP right there, more than a fireball or evisc crit. You can't seriously be calling that nothing.

Sure, an extra 500 or so armor that means my damage reduction goes up by 5% maybe to a total of 12% to 15% DR max.

Sorry, I meant to say Demon Armor, not Fel Armor. Keep mixing those up. As in, I call them both Fel, for some reason.

ie, Psychic Scream

Psychic Scream is an awesome ability, it's only weakness (except for the obvious being relatively easy to break) is that it's on a long cooldown and that the priest class has no other reliable cc (unlike warlocks).

Probably the only possible defense you've listed, but if you're being assist trained, this might not even save you. And if you have multiple people on you? You get off an HoT and they're back on you quicker that you know what's happened.

Anything being assist trained will die if nothing is done about it, just like everything dies with multiple people on it.

And none of this lets us get what we truly need, distance. Every class but Warlocks and Priests have a way to get away when they're being beat on, this is the problem you're not getting.

Even if we pretend that fear doesn't make people run away from you, thus creatingthe much-needed distance, warlocks and priests can both take a punch a heck of alot better than, say, mages, hunters or rogues.

First off, ever tried to cast a 1.5 second spell when a fast attack class is on you like a Rogue? You'll never get it off before you are a: stunned, b: disoriented, c: interrupted, or d: trinketed/skilled out of.

I know 1.5 sec casts are impossible against rogues. This is where things like instant Howl of Terror, Felguard Intercept or Shadowfury comes in. Even if they break that fear as well, you'll usually have gained enough distance from it to get off another fear before they come back into melee.

The problem is getting distance. As I noted above, Warlocks and Priests have no way of assuring getting distance between them and the people they're fighting, all other classes do have a way of getting distance or taking the punishment handed out. This is why the horror effect of DC is the Warlock's best defense because it does something that nothing else does, it gives them time to get some distance, not much, but some. Priests don't even have this.

As you mention yourself, fear, and thus psychic scream, gets you distance, so you can't say that only DC does that. It works very well against those other 7 classes that don't regularily break it more than once per fight. Priests can get distance easily. My priest kites rogues without sprint up all the time, and both my warlocks and my priest can tank a warrior or a rogue for decent amounts of time even without healing, the priest with ~35% damage reduction, vamp embrace and shields, the warlock with healthstones, deathcoil heal and life drain (pummeled, but whatever, every little bit helps) combined with fe... I mean demon armor, though I've never PvPed without a demo specc. (For the same reason that only crazy mages PvP without ice block.)

Which brings me back to the point, these two classes against a Warlock or a Priest will win 90% of the time because unlike all the other classes out there, Warlocks and Priests cannot take the punishment and cannot gain distance (which is the only way to fight these two classes).

Warlocks and priests take punishment just fine, better than alot of classes, and fear is very capable of gaining you distance as long as your opponent isn't immune.

If you look at a Mage, they'll FN and Blink away

A mage frost novaing and then blinking away is likely to be greeted with a intercept+hamstring or kidney shot+crippling poison. Without any more escape abilities, it now dies instantly.

Hunter with drop a trap and FD to make them lose target and then gain distance while the trap is in effect, the Shaman can frost shock, shift to ghostwolf and get away, the Druid can shift to cast and dash away and then root if needed, the Rogue has tons of disorients, stuns, and other things to fall back on, the Warrior can try to soak the damage, the Paladin has their bubble if they get low in health and can heal back up while immune. Yet the Priest and Warlock have to depend on fear/horror to gain distance as all the other defenses don't get you any distances from the person beating on you and with some many ways to break fear out there, the Priest is a sitting duck and if more that two people are beating on the Warlock, even a DC isn't going to do much.

Yes, much like all the other classes out there warlocks and priests will die if they have two fear-immune, snare-spamming stunlockers on them.

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Anyway, your main argument seems to be that, since warlocks/priests have no abilities - other than fear - which grant the advantage of distance over the enemy, all other defences are void, which simply isn't true. Even when faced with undead rogues they'll only have two fear breaks, and while this is enough to kill pretty much any shadow priest out there, warlocks will break away from it. Lone warriors are a joke for both classes, and going 1v2 against any of your anti-classes is supposed to be suicide.

For arena, lately my guildmates tell me they've started bruning mages first over the other classes, since they can't be saved even by spamming healers after ice block is down. Priests and warlocks are alot harder to kill.

Bibdy · 06/05/07, 7:18 PM

What do you mean by escaping? How easy is it for anyone to escape a melee class when they're Hamstrung or Crippling Poisoned?

You keep switching back and forth between multiple assailants and one. EVERY class is under extreme pressure under focus fire. A Paladin can't get a heal off, a Shaman sure as hell isn't going anywhere, a Mage can't do shit when FN/Blink are down and so on. If you keep wailing on somebody they will suffer. A lot of 5v5 arena fights are decided based on which guy each side focusses on and for how long.

Against 1 attacker, why do Priests and Warlocks absolutely need to get away that bad? Priests are hard as nails to kill when they're spamming their shields and heals and with the trinket change you should have a good chance against a Rogue or Warrior hand-to-hand. If you wait for a 5pt Kidney or an Intercept before you use the trinket you're as good as gold.

zournyque · 06/06/07, 8:06 AM

being and affliction lock i hate the fear nerf very much because blizz took my only useful cc except coex away. 1.5 secs cast for 1second fear (no diminishing return) is pretty redicilous...i mean do i cc my target or does my target cc me with my own ability? ..just tested it today with my paladin arena partner...

for the escape thing..i begin to love my escape artist more and more only problem is while fighting vs rogues that if you are unlucky you are poisoned again right after using it.

sry for my bad english skills

right now in the bg.. i see a rogue fighting against a priest and dot him like hell..then he shadowsteps + backstabs me so i use howl of terror...howl of terror is instantly removed through dot ticks and i still have global cd so i cant deathcoil him while i receive the kidney shot...luckily he just died through my dots then. it sux...

Gretten · 06/07/07, 7:28 AM

I must say that I have noticed a small difference in BG's (I'm not in a great arenateam, so the fights are usually too short to have much CC involved in 2v2.) I usually DoT up whatever my target is and Drain Life/Shadowbolt accordingly to the situation, and Fear still acts a lot like it did prepatch.