You are not one of the classes he is talking about.

From experience the higher rated 5v5 teams featuring mages actually focus very little on damage and more on spam poly/CS. Due to the iceblock changes it seems more mages are going deep frost for ice barrier and improved survivability in general.

Control has become the name of the game, The dps classes without more than 1 control ability, or very short duration (Hunters, Rogues) are proving less and less useful as teams change thier setups. A lot of teams earlier on fielded heavy melee groups, but it seems that has developed into three healer, mage/lock, MS war teams. A strong increase in "spike" teams is also occuring (An example, 2 affliction locks, Shadow Priest, Ele-Shaman, Pala).

As for resilience whether working incorrectly or not seems somewhat fine at the moment however whats not fine is caster classes with the better control skills hosting masses of resilience and HP and still having "respectable" damage (mainly DoT's). But that just seems to be the best choice at the moment.

Its competitve play after all people will choose the setups/gear that work well. Still lots of balancing to do between classes but its interesting to see how the top arena team setups have changed since the start of the season.

Yep, but no one wants to reroll 1-70, grind 100k honor, grind factions /heroics etc. all over again to try a new setup.

Has anyone tested how resilience effects crit increasing talents since 2.1.2 went live? I have the vague hope that they either A) changed it to what we would expect or B) decided they wanted resilience to have a benefit greater than its tooltip value.

Edit: A lack of ruin prevents me easily testing this myself

I see this, and similar arguments as to why Resilience doesn't affect DoTs, all the time (such as the ever popular "DoTs take time to do their damage, and can't crit, so resilience should not affect them"). And it is true, that DoTs cannot burst someone down in a few seconds, but I rarely see mentioned the huge upside of DoTs: once they are cast, if they are not dispelled (by the 2 classes capable of dispelling them) the caster can go do other things (CC, interrupt, DoT more people, cast DD spells, kite) while their DoTs play out. Now, this may seem like a fairly "no s***, sherlock" comment, but the fact of the matter is, if DD classes are not actively going at it on their target, they aren't doing damage.

I just wanted to make sure people kept this in mind, when saying the PvP stat of Resilience should not affect DoTs.

I don't disagree, but my gut feeling is that someone, somewhere misjudged the significance of the extent to which resilience effects total damage output(not just burst) of many classes.

People with good resilience gear in S2 will easily be knocking off 10-12% from the DPS of some classes. Reslience doesn't just reduce lethal spikes - it cuts into total damage dealt over the course of a fight by a very, very significant margin as well(for some classes, much, much moreso than others) - and therein lies the problem.

Making the assumtion that the avg course run of a DoT does about the same as a special + white attack from a melee...
...the melee is also free to go do other things too once he has instantly dished out around 1500-2000 dmg.

Your argument makes little sense to me. Sure the warlock can go do other things while his DoTs tick for 18 seconds for 1500-2000 dmg. So can the warrior or rogue or mage when they hit someone for that much too in very short time. Oh, and there's very large potential in that 18 seconds that the dot will be removed in some fashion, and it will only do part of its dmg. It sure would be nice to remove part of another classes dmg instantly. Oh wait, it's called resilience. Now it's starting to come full circle....(some people probably still don't understand, but hey, I tried)

Whether you like the argument or not, the fact that DoTs have to run a course, and can potentially be removed or resisted each tick, is exactly the balance for instant burst crits. Instant burst crits are lessened by resilience; DoTs are lessened by dispels, CloS, Iceblock, Renews, Bubbles, etc, etc, etc. There are many things that can slow down or remove DoT dmg from happening. Once burst dmg is done...that's it, the dmg is done, you have to heal through it.





My solution to DoTs is as follows. I actually have two solutions:

#1: Make each tick of a DoT have a chance to crit. Lower the overall dmg of a DoT to take this into account for the same avg DoT dmg that we have now. This would be good for two reasons. One, it would allow resilience to affect DoTs. Two, it would actually make end game gear that has +spell crit on it useful to affliction locks.

#2: Make resilience reduce the length of DoTs. The more resilience you have, the less length a DoT can tick for. Obviously you have to hard cap this at a lower limit, like 50% length reduction or something.

Let's not make any assumptions, please. I highly doubt that a set of DoT's from a properly spec'd warlock will do 1500-2000 damage... (I personally can't provide this, but anecdotal evidence has shown me that it is capable of probably 6-7k with good gear). For me, as a rogue, to do 1500-2000 damage "instantly" it would take a string of *extremely* lucky crits (which becomes more difficult as people get more resilience), on cloth or leather, and this is "assuming" that none of my attacks are dodged or parried. The DoT that takes its 18 seconds to complete will do it's full damage (baring resists which are absent from PvP gear, and dispells that 2.5 classes are capable of, additionally made near impossible by UA). But I digress, this is all stuff we have heard before, and, before resilience was introduced, all the pros and cons balanced each other out (for the most part).

I really don't want to bring up the whole magic (DoT more specifically) damage vs melee debate. DoTs can be dispelled, melee need to be in melee range; DoTs can be resisted, physical damage is mitigated by armor, etc. Once again, it was fine before this prevalent stat came in and starting helping (hurting?) one side of the fence and not the other.

Balance would be resilience affecting every class equally.


I cannot possibly foresee making DoTs crit in order to make resilience affect them, that is a big mechanic change for a small problem. #2 seems a bit extreme to me, hurting DoTs more than necessary.

Something I see as more likely to happen is adding a new Resistance that applies only to DoTs and other spells that cannot crit. This "DoT resistance" would be gained directly through that stat Resilience, at a rate of something like 3 Resilience rating adding 1 DoT resistance (rough numbers). Giving someone with 300 Resilience (a safe average) 100 DoT resistance.

A 'set of DoTs' as you describe them, takes time to get off. We are still limited by the gcd, and UA and Immo have cast times. It's not as if a warlock can just mash a button 5 times and apply dots. Through this 'DoT application process' we are very susceptible to well...everything. You, as a rogue, should know this very well.

As for my numbers, my 'assumption' (I merely called it that because I don't have a combat log to post) is pretty accurate. Corruption for example ticks around ~300 for your avg lock. 6 ticks. 1800 dmg.

I was comparing "1 DoT" to "1 Special+White" attack...since both can be performed in the same time frame. I know very well that a warrior or rogue or hunter (tougher for rogue) can do 1500-2000 dmg with a special + white. Your argument was the warlock can apply a (note the single) dot and then go on to perform other tasks. My counter is that the classes I listed (as well as others) could also put out the same dmg as a DoT, and they are also free to go do whatever else they want after this dmg is done. I was pointing this out to show how silly your argument sounds, to say a warlock can just lay down 'a' DoT and go ignore it for 18-30 seconds. Heck, it takes us 8 seconds just to even APPLY our dots. How much dmg could a warrior/rogue/mage/hunter do in 8 seconds....exactly. The kicker is, after that 8 seconds is up (assuming we were allowed to freely DoT, yea right) then the dmg isn't even done yet. We have to wait 18-30 seconds for durations, during which time they could be dispelled, bubbled, cloaked, offset with HoTs, etc.

I'm not trying to QQ about DoTs here...I just want you to understand the apples and oranges of the situation. Comparing DoTs to Instant DD is not a proper comparison, and likewise, offering the same solutions to both is not proper.

This isn't to say DoTs are perfect, just to say that offering the same solution to them you offer burst DD is unacceptable. They aren't the same. There is probably a solution out there somewhere, and hopefully Blizzard finds one that makes both sides happy. *dreams*

I am very aware that DoTs and DD are different, and I didn't suggest applying the same solution to both, because... well, you can't apply the same solution to both because of the fact you stated, "They aren't the same." (The idea of making resilience affect DoTs, in a very different way that it affects DD, is so the Resilience stat becomes useful in all situations). But none of this means they should be in any way immune to the effects Resilience (and I'm sure you would agree on this one, since you seem like a logical person).

This is realistically only fair if they disallow gearswapping anything but trinkets and weapons in the arena as it penalizes warlock/shadow priest 2v2 and 3v3 teams far too much. Remove the ability to swap into resist gear and then whatever changes that can be made to dots to apply resilience effects to them are completely fair. Effecting dots by resilience and allow people to stack SR as well and you destroy that teamup.