Then there is one-shot (in practice) abilities like sap, which previously had no counter apart from self immunity effects, which will be much worse now.
Are people really this ignorant about Sap? It doesn't seem so when I actually play Arenas, people are actively avoiding Sap, yet no one is ever admitting to it on forums. Warriors stay in berserker stance, Paladins use Blessing of Sacrifice, and everybody who knows better tries to get in combat. That's all it takes to counter Sap - get in combat.
Anyway, to say I'm concerned about this change would be heavily understating it. I already hate facing Warrior/Paladin teams enough, and they really didn't lose anything to this change while many other teams that already struggle did. It'll take a lot to convince me this change isn't a harsh negative.
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Hey let's not forget the best sap counter in the game. Warlock with felhunter and track hidden. One time I was standing on the pillar next to the felhunter and I swear I saw a rogue on the his side of the bridge's ramp.
It makes warrior / paladin better, but honestly they were already great anti-CC with BoSac. The only difference is that the first fear on the paladin is trinketed now. I would say teams without a paladin are going to see the biggest change in 2v2 or 3v3. I really do feel for rogues in this change seeing as they were already a weaker option in 5v5 due to this and that, but they made up for it in 2v2 and 3v3 effectiveness.
Yah this is big news for shaman. Might actually see enhance become ever so slightly more viable in arenas now. (ie, more than zero)
Shamans already have two specs that are more than viable for arena. Asking for a third spec while two other classes lacks a single one is a bit too much to ask for at this moment. I realize that enhancement might not be the most viable arenaspec atm but both restoration and elemental is extremely strong.
I think this trinket change is hilarious, it makes the already weak arenaclasses even weaker while boosting the classes that didn't need it in the first place.
I have to echo the sentiments of a few here and say "uh, why?" Sure, now I might be able to get out of scattershot or sap but my team is me & 2 rogues and now we're screwed I think. Not that we were fearsome PvP opponents by any stretch of the imagination but we were able to have fun and occasionally get rewarded for our time put into the arena. I hope we can still have fun because we're gonna get creamed now for sure.
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before. - Dwight Eisenhower
Is there, uh, anything I'll be able to do about Undead Warriors? At all?
Yeah, it's basically impossible for a class with fear to ever CC an undead warrior at this point.
Also, this is a big nerf to rogue CC (being that you can't "re-do" it) especially sap and blind. Kind of surprising considering rogues weren't exactly a dominant arena class. Definitely hurt the two worst arena classes (rogue and druid) and basically helped the other 7 classes, at least in my opinion.
edit; basically echoing what Kheletarr said, makes the weaker classes weaker and stronger classes stronger.
Wow. Sap and Blind (not to mention stun) gone from high level play. This is a pretty massive change and I have to say that initially I'm pretty unhappy with it.
If rogues aren't meant to be able to disrupt better than, say, a warrior (used because they're the only other real analogue, being a melee damage class in PVP) I'm not sure what my strength in PVP is supposed to be.
Focusing on the positive, I can now trinket Freezing Trap. As I could already trinket or cooldown every one else's CC at least once, that's really the only gain I can see.
Was this really needed? I know how in 2v2 it happens all the time, CC one person, kill the other. But I was under the impression that 2v2 was designed for gimmicks like that, with the less arena points gained. It feels like this change really helps some of the strongest classes in arena while hurting some of the ones that are widely admitted to be less than stellar.
I honestly would not be surprised if this was the precursor to removing WotF and Stoneform, and giving the Horde Fear Ward.
They changed Mass Dispel to target Immunity Shields first.
They gave mage water to everyone to downplay the need for a specific class just for water.
They reduced the cast time and cost of Mass Dispel.
They gave trinkets to everyone to break cyclone and deathcoil.
I'm curious to see if MS is the next thing to be down played, because it looks like the writing is on the walls.
Please stop whining about this. Think about it for a couple seconds and you'll realize that sap, blind, and cyclone are not going away. At the very best, players will have an additional CC break every two minutes, and that's if they already haven't used the trinket. Open with a sap, and a full duration blind becomes available. Force a use of the trinket and it's gone. CC in arenas was already very spotty; this might reduce it a bit more, but it's nothing gamebreaking.
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!
Actually I think the really interesting thing is how this will change matches, because now that you can break any CC it's going to be tough deciding when to use your trinket and when to save it (right now it's a no brainer for many classes fear=break, long stun = break), but if you can potentially break blinds and death coils, it might be worth saving.
The problem from a rogue perspective is that the limited things we did bring to arenas that other classes couldn't do: Blind, Sap, are now breakable... this could however work out well, now that the 1 time sap will be broken with the trinket, using their cooldown, but at first it seems scary that warriors (who have many cc breaks already, from charging to stop being kited while slowed, to zerker rage to break incapacitate/fear) have now even less to fear. Add a paladin to that team and the only thing that will stop a warrior is... uh.... well...... what will stop warriors now?
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell
The problem from a rogue perspective is that the limited things we did bring to arenas that other classes couldn't do: Blind, Sap, are now breakable... this could however work out well, now that the 1 time sap will be broken with the trinket, using their cooldown, but at first it seems scary that warriors (who have many cc breaks already, from charging to stop being kited while slowed, to zerker rage to break incapacitate/fear) have now even less to fear. Add a paladin to that team and the only thing that will stop a warrior is... uh.... well...... what will stop warriors now?
What stopped them before?
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!
The problem from a rogue perspective is that the limited things we did bring to arenas that other classes couldn't do: Blind, Sap, are now breakable... this could however work out well, now that the 1 time sap will be broken with the trinket, using their cooldown, but at first it seems scary that warriors (who have many cc breaks already, from charging to stop being kited while slowed, to zerker rage to break incapacitate/fear) have now even less to fear. Add a paladin to that team and the only thing that will stop a warrior is... uh.... well...... what will stop warriors now?
Dots, more dots, even more dots. And cooldowns. And lack of anti-Downs medicines.
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It's the disproportionality of the change that irks me the most, to be honest. I understand that it will add another layer of choice to the equation in PVP. Choice is good. However to certain classes it adds very few additional choices while to others it opens up many possibilities. Even in theory this doesn't seem like a very smart, balanced idea.
Uh, if I'm fighting a rogue, being able to trinket out of sap or blind is huge... especially blind.
Your second statement is needlessly inflammatory.
If you trinket out of Sap, you can't get out of Fear, or KS, or Blind, or Polymorph and so on, countering one CC is nice, but it's hardly game breaking all it means is I'll change my rotation from sapping first to sapping after they've burned the trinket.
2 minute cooldown will be used in 5vs5 maybe once it's rather rare you end up with a 4-6+ minute fight, in 2vs2 depending what you go up against it'll likely be 1-2 times i've had maybe 2 games where the fight was 6+ minutes long and Blind or Sap wouldn't have changed the outcome of them at that point.
And it also means you can now counter things like Cyclone which is going to be a great help in 2vs2 against Feral Druid/Rogue where myself or my healer are locked down for crazy amounts of time due to Sap + Blind + Cyclone spam, the only race thats going to become more overpowered by this is a Dwarf and Stoneform is already another issue that needs to be addressed.
If this was on a 5m cooldown I'd be annoyed, but I could deal with it.
The fact that Blind CD is 3m and trinket CD is 2m ... !? Is pretty ridiculous.
Maybe, insanely, they thought all rogues having imp Sap was too good in PvP, so they effectively just removed it from PvP (!)
People are saying that it's on a cooldown and that matters, but does it?
I sap a priest and move to DPS a warlock. What happens? The priest trinkets my sap AND the warlock trinkets my stun - these abilities are rarely used on the same targets so the fact that the trinkets have a 2 minute cooldown is of minor importance.
Remember that all the old breaks are still in - tremor, cleanse, dispel, etc. Half the time I'd blind someone just for the 3 seconds I got before a cleanse landed, now they can insta trinket the first and still get cleansed after that... although in the case of blind the trinket will have cooled down anyway...
I certainly wont be speccing Vile Poisons for the 40% dispel resist on blind now. Vile is now a much much much weaker PvP talent, since crippling and blind can now be removed 100% with a 2m trinket for all classes.
It's a horrible change and I'd felt control was quite balanced in Arenas with resilience. Now it just becomes a big healer mana war.
Okay and? Now they can't trinket out of your stuns, if they want to trinket out of crippling poison I'll just Shiv it back on them and enjoy the fact that they can't trinket out of stun.
it's hardly game breaking all it means is I'll change my rotation from sapping first to sapping after they've burned the trinket.
So you'll engage, wait for them to get CCed somehow and break it with their trinket, then magically get them out of combat and you back into stealth, in close proximity to each other, so you can sap them.
You can argue plenty of "If they do that, I'll do this", but that doesn't really help.
It clearly IS a nerf for classes with multiple powerful but very high CD/DR CCs - Druids, Rogues, potentially Warlocks.
It doesn't affect Paladin's and Warriors barely at all, and these are undoubtedly still the strongest classes in PvP.
With CC being of even lesser importance, Mana wars and therefore Mortal Strike become even more important.
The logic for this change escapes me - what problems is it supposed to address?
It really seems like much less of a nerf when you consider that for a rogue, it either opens up untrinketed kidney shots, or at the worst, leaves blind unchanged. People have to decide now if they want to waste the trinket on the kidney shot or save it for the blind, and that's even if they didn't already have to blow it on sap! In fact, if you're able to sap and force a trinket only to have unharrased kidney shots, it starts to sound more like a buff to me.
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!
06/07/07, 10:41 AM
