Well as it is right now, MS is a 6sec CD unless you put 5points into it bringing it to a 5sec CD, if MS were an instant CD to apply the 10% healing needless to say would devistate anybody. At least if you are implying instant CD of MS like Rogue's Shiv ability.
But aside from changing MS, its about the only thing Warriors have going for them. Other than this we would be the equivalent of a Rogue.
MS is still a 6 sec CD but it would only apply a 10% healing debuff. Further MS on the same target (6, 12, 18 seconds after the first, etc.) would increase the debuff by 10% each time to a max of 50%, as long as they were applied before it drops off.
MS is still a 6 sec CD but it would only apply a 10% healing debuff. Further MS on the same target (6, 12, 18 seconds after the first, etc.) would increase the debuff by 10% each time to a max of 50%, as long as they were applied before it drops off.
Problem with that change would be MS falling off (takes one dodge/parry/miss) to happen. BoP also removes MS, but not wound poison.
Originally Posted by Tower
I think we're all implying successful teammate options for 5v5. I think we all know I can zone in with 4 hunters and feel like I'm innovating.
Could you get a 2200 5v5 (I think you could.)? Is rogue/healer/casterx3 really harder to get or less varied than paladin/war/rangedx3? Do you feel that warriors hit you too hard, hamstring you too much? There are viable options.
MS would be competely garbage in such a scenario, as it is impossible for a warrior to stay on a target that long given competent teammates. Reason wound poison works is because fast weapons + shiv means you can get up a full stack in just a few seconds.
Rogue troubles have all but vanished (pun?), or rather have become part of a larger issue at hand. Caster damage is increasing at an adverse rate relative to survivability, and rogues have the upper hand here with cloak and vanish for immunity and target drop. Warriors are being destroyed by any make-up which includes caster burst.
If any rogue "buffs" are coming they need to be to the subtlety tree only. Mace spec needs to be toned down, especially for warriors, and S3 gear needs to have a ton more res/stam and/or less spelldmg and/or armor piercing for melee.
Rogue complaints used to be valid, but the rise in popularity and viability of 4dps and magic damage in general has brought rogues right up along with it. Rogues function as both the perfect support and counter to magic dps classes, especially shadowpriest or warlock.
Hunters are the class most suffering at the moment, but I would be hesitant to call for any buffs just yet simply by reason of the rogue example.
Remember in SC and WC3 when people would piss and moan about NE building rushes or Human towers or mass gargoyles or whatever FOTM tactic happened to stomp ass? Blizzard (almost) never changed anything with the game itself, instead letting the playerbase counter it naturally. Trends will always arise and counters inevitably will follow. It works that way with anything competitive.
It's not a bad thing to point out problems to Blizzard but odds are if you aren't getting the buffs you're asking for it's not that they aren't listening, it's that you're incorrect. Some things have been acknowledged as problems, but in the mean time we may as well busy ourselves coming up with next season's fashion.
MS would be competely garbage in such a scenario, as it is impossible for a warrior to stay on a target that long given competent teammates. Reason wound poison works is because fast weapons + shiv means you can get up a full stack in just a few seconds.
Why is it that people think this. 5 stacks via Shiv is 175 energy for most Rogues (based on a 1.5 speed OH), at 20 Energy every 2 seconds, that's 17.5 seconds worth of energy. Not to mention, if you are doing nothing but Shiv, you aren't doing any damage, you aren't Kidney Shotting, Blinding, Gouging or even opening with a Cheapshot or Garrotte.
The idea that Rogues can instantly have 5 stacks of a poison up is a bit overplayed.
Indeed. I just had to reduce some damage talents to give me 4 spare points for Imp Poisons.
No rogue in history has ever shivved Wound Poison anyway. If you're not shivving crippling you're not staying in melee range of anyone ever, and I use a weapon swap to shiv MN too. Using even more GCDs for a 3rd weapon swap is not viable, quite apart from the Energy cost.
People say 'The Rise of 4DPS' but as I understand it 4DPS is NOT very competitive in the highest levels of the game. I don't have time to check but I understood there was like 1 team with this setup in the top 20 or 50 teams worldwide.
There is no reason that a warrior can't fulfil a rogues role in such a team either. Hamstring and MS being physical instead of poison is infinitely better, with defensive stance, intervene and spell reflect (not to mention 2k more HP and Commanding Shout), careful warriors can survive just as well as one cloak every 60 seconds (whilst still applying MS with frequent intercepts). As a non-undead rogue I would also kill for the Fear control capabilities of a warrior too. Warriors only die to 4DPS burst when they go out in beserker, pop deathwish with a 2Her because of all the nasty warlock fears and then get instagibbed.
The fact that warriors also have the 2 x warrior / 3 x healer setup available to them, and various different 2 healer combos only adds to their overrepresentation. Last time I looked, the average number of warriors in the top teams was >1, whilst the average number of rogues was something like 1/20th. Rogues being 'viable' in SOME 4DPS line ups where warriors can run in 4DPS, 3DPS and 2DPS teams (and are 100% required in the last two) is rather a give away that things aren't quite going as planned. The same goes for Paladins- doesn't every single team of any configuration need one? I think so. 4DPS isn't rogue+3+healer, it's paladin+4.
Nothing has changed and Blizz have already acknowledged that they need to improve Hunter and Rogue representation in high level arena (despite the fact the top team in the world last month has a hunter in their starting line up). The clue here is that exceptions don't mean anything...
Nothing has changed and Blizz have already acknowledged that they need to improve Hunter and Rogue representation in high level arena (despite the fact the top team in the world last month has a hunter in their starting line up). The clue here is that exceptions don't mean anything...
Rogues are infinitely more survivable than warriors in a 4 DPS set up mirror match up - shield + intervene doesn't even come close to cloak of shadows, expecially when you load up the warrior with DoTs and crowd control the healers.
Combine this with warriors being really really disadavantaged in small teams - rogues have it really really nice now because of how warlock oriented the meta-game has become, unfortunately, a troll rogue is probably 10-20% weaker than an undead rogue, just because of how broken WoTF is.
It's interesting to see how the metagame has shifted to one that is more warrior unfriendly, but it was bound to happen. If everyone is running Scissors eventually someone is going to find a Rock.
A quick scan of geekboys.com shows me that there are perhaps 10-15% 4 DPS teams that makeup the top 150 in the US realms, which use rogues. This is better than how rogues were represented several months ago, but still nothing compared to the number of teams that use good ol war/pld/shm/x/x.
While MS can be removed by BoP, which will happen exactly one time during the fight, Wound Poison can be removed by paladins, druids, shaman, and (the ultimate insult!) a shaman's TOTEM. It may be difficult to remove Wound Poison altogether because of how fast I attack and how valuable GCDs are, but the poison is at least partially removed far more often than MS ever is.
The issues that a rogue has in 5s haven't really changed much, it's just that the environment has changed to focus on the weaknesses of the dominant classes -- warriors and paladins -- with some limited success.
For myself, I've abandoned 5v5 altogether and just play 3v3 as it's a nice mix of being useful as a rogue without as much of a risk of running into the cheese of 2v2. Rogues definitely shine the fewer people are in the fight.
Combine this with warriors being really really disadavantaged in small teams - rogues have it really really nice now because of how warlock oriented the meta-game has become, unfortunately, a troll rogue is probably 10-20% weaker than an undead rogue, just because of how broken WoTF is.
What disadvantage do Warriors have in small teams? Warriors still dominate 2v2 compared to Rogues, for example of the Top 10 teams in the US, six of them are running a Warrior. Warrior/Paladin, Warrior/Shaman and Warrior/Druid are all incredibly popular.
Rogues are somewhat compariable in 3v3 (top 10 has 3 Warriors, 4 Rogues) so where you get "really really disadvantaged" is beyond me.
What disadvantage do Warriors have in small teams? Warriors still dominate 2v2 compared to Rogues, for example of the Top 10 teams in the US, six of them are running a Warrior. Warrior/Paladin, Warrior/Shaman and Warrior/Druid are all incredibly popular.
Rogues are somewhat compariable in 3v3 (top 10 has 3 Warriors, 4 Rogues) so where you get "really really disadvantaged" is beyond me.
Probably perception from my own battlegroup, it seems like every 2000+ team we run into is rogue/priest/rogue or rogue/priest/mage, which just ends up wrecking our team.
Probably perception from my own battlegroup, it seems like every 2000+ team we run into is rogue/priest/rogue or rogue/priest/mage, which just ends up wrecking our team.
Any disadvantage they have in 3v3 (which is quite small if any as the numbers are quite even), is made up for the overwelming advantage Warriors have in 2v2 and 5v5. In 2v2, Rogue/Druid is about the only group that has a real shot at rising to the top, but even that group can easily be countered by a well played Warrior/Paladin team.
Honestly, I think we're pretty much beating a dead horse at this point. Warriors are a little overpowered and Rogues are a little underpowered when it comes to the Arenas (at least for 2v2 and 5v5 respectively). At this point it's up to Blizzard to make changes for Season 3, and we'll have to re-assess Rogue at that time.
I think it's just perception from remembering your losses. We're in the same battlegroup (we're up to ~1950 now) and we still have some nights of just facing war/2 x healer and others of clothies that we own. It just depends, I expect, on who started playing that night and in what numbers. I.e. Rock stops many Scissors teams being in rotation, and so on.
Rogues are infinitely more survivable than warriors in a 4 DPS set up mirror match up - shield + intervene doesn't even come close to cloak of shadows, expecially when you load up the warrior with DoTs and crowd control the healers.
You mean a warrior has to gem for survival with 12sta and 8res like the rest of us? Gasp! Seriously, warriors have been gemming with all damage gems for 2 seasons now. The good warriors can swap to shield every time MS is on cooldown, spell reflect, repeat. CloS is on a 1m cooldown and you can't vanish or clos if you're stunned. But you're right, having access to 1-2k more hp pools from gear balancing, being able to spell reflect on a 10s cooldown, have 10% all damage reduction in defensive and wear plate, decreasing incoming melee damage by 40% is nowhere near as strong as being able to use Clos every minute. The highest ranked warriors are STIL gemming for damage. They have 0 reason to complain about being gibbed while they wear BT bracers and belts, etc.
Combine this with warriors being really really disadavantaged in small teams - rogues have it really really nice now because of how warlock oriented the meta-game has become, unfortunately, a troll rogue is probably 10-20% weaker than an undead rogue, just because of how broken WoTF is.
I'll agree with you on racials being unbalanced. Being undead is the best race for a rogue. But it's pretty unanimous the most overpowered race for PvP is dwarf, and the most overpowered race/class combination for PvP is a dwarf priest.
Last edited by Tower : 09/12/07 at 12:19 PM.
Reason: Weird quote tags
Remember in SC and WC3 when people would piss and moan about NE building rushes or Human towers or mass gargoyles or whatever FOTM tactic happened to stomp ass?
All of those were nerfed btw, because in the end there was nothing anyone could do that took an equal effort or less, to counter it, even with full knowledge of what was coming. Much like how rogues are in the 5v5 arena now. You know exactly what you have to do, exactly what you will be fighting, but the other guys just have everything so much easier, and get more for their effort.
You mean a warrior has to gem for survival with 12sta and 8res like the rest of us? Gasp! Seriously, warriors have been gemming with all damage gems for 2 seasons now. The good warriors can swap to shield every time MS is on cooldown, spell reflect, repeat. CloS is on a 1m cooldown and you can't vanish or clos if you're stunned. But you're right, having access to 1-2k more hp pools from gear balancing, being able to spell reflect on a 10s cooldown, have 10% all damage reduction in defensive and wear plate, decreasing incoming melee damage by 40% is nowhere near as strong as being able to use Clos every minute. The highest ranked warriors are STIL gemming for damage. They have 0 reason to complain about being gibbed while they wear BT bracers and belts, etc.
No one's complaining about warrior survival? He just said rogues have more survivability against caster heavy teams as compared to warriors. Sure spell reflecting every 10 seconds is good, but no warrior is gonna do what you said about ms being on cooldown and swapping to a 1h/shield to spell reflect. If we're getting focused, we're gonna keep our shield on and shield bash/spell reflect not switch to a 2her. It uses potentially two weapon swap GCDs, which is stupid for 2h dmg in d stance. Our dmg decreases a lot when we switch to a 1h/shield whereas a rogue can continue doing their role while CloS'ed which is to control...a warrior's primary role is and always will be damage in arena. That's why we gem for damage and not survivability, we are definitely more fragile against casters than rogues and the most fragile if caught in zerk with death wish compared to any other class.
Cloak is a key skill to use against casters, and is an effective focus fire deterrent against magic heavy 4 dps teams. But ... Cloak can't be used while stunned/feared, which 4 DPS teams bring in abundance. Once the Cloak is down (we're talking about five seconds here), rogues rely on the same thing everyone else does -- HP and stamina and praying that their healers aren't CC'd.
Tower's point is valid. If you don't gear for survivability then you can't complain about dying quickly. I know that all my physical stats drop by huge margins when I swap into PVP gear, but my survivability grows by leaps and bounds. Not doing this and then asking why you die so quickly boggles the mind.
You also might want to read the entire thread where a comparison is drawn between rogue control and warrior control abilities (given deep thunder and mace spec, which is every top arena warrior) and see that the differences are not nearly as striking as you might think.
Cloak is a key skill to use against casters, and is an effective focus fire deterrent against magic heavy 4 dps teams. But ... Cloak can't be used while stunned/feared, which 4 DPS teams bring in abundance. Once the Cloak is down (we're talking about five seconds here), rogues rely on the same thing everyone else does -- HP and stamina and praying that their healers aren't CC'd.
Tower's point is valid. If you don't gear for survivability then you can't complain about dying quickly. I know that all my physical stats drop by huge margins when I swap into PVP gear, but my survivability grows by leaps and bounds. Not doing this and then asking why you die so quickly boggles the mind.
You also might want to read the entire thread where a comparison is drawn between rogue control and warrior control abilities (given deep thunder and mace spec, which is every top arena warrior) and see that the differences are not nearly as striking as you might think.
Like I said, no warrior should be complaining about their own survivability nor am I. As has been discussed, rogues work very well in 4 DPS teams due to their survivability and the threat the other 3 DPS brings. A 4 DPS team with a warrior is terrible because they will die instantly if targetted. A warrior's physical stats drop by huge margins as well when we need survivability because we swap to 1h/shield (spell reflect, huge DPS loss as compared to 2H) and d stance (-10% damage modifier). The reason that rogues are superior to warriors in 4 DPS is because all 3 other DPS classes present more of a threat and a rogue is the worst due to this on top of CloS and Vanish. Rogues are pretty much the last target against a 4 DPS team due to these reasons.
Gnuoyiy, I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to say, so because a Rogue may (or may not) be better than a Warrior in one gimmicky 5v5 setup, then everything's okay? If not, I'm a little lost.
My point is that a warrior's primary role in arena is and always is DPS. A rogue has a mixture of DPS and control. Apples and oranges stop comparing them. I know what rogues want, they want more versatility with their combo selection in 5v5. And Safid mentioned DT and mace spec as a method of control? You can't control a proc like you can with on-command stuns that rogues have, so once again..apples and oranges.
Yes, the link you posted proves rogues "need"/"want" more versatility in 5s, but I'm sure it proves the same for hunters and druids...
That's my point, stop comparing warriors to rogues, each brings something different to the table...as well as one having more versatility than the other due to design. I'm not against rogues, but it'd be pretty difficult to give rogues more versatility in 5s with a balanced change. I'd assume the population of rogues in top 2s and 3s is much higher than warriors if you looked at the same site.
My point is that a warrior's primary role in arena is and always is DPS. A rogue has a mixture of DPS and control. Apples and oranges stop comparing them. I know what rogues want, they want more versatility with their combo selection in 5v5. And Safid mentioned DT and mace spec as a method of control? You can't control a proc like you can with on-command stuns that rogues have, so once again..apples and oranges.
If you notice, none of my posts do I compare Warrior and Rogue abilities, that is other people (namely Warriors actually) doing so. There will be an inevitable comparison between the two just because Warriors and Rogues are both Melee classes.
Originally Posted by gnuoyiy
Yes, the link you posted proves rogues "need"/"want" more versatility in 5s, but I'm sure it proves the same for hunters and druids...
Look at the thread title, this thread is about issues with Rogues in the Arena. There are other threads dealing with the issues of other classes. My post was a direct response to someone saying that Warriors have a disadvantage in smaller teams. My post just shows that Warriors do not have a disadvantage, in fact they have a massive advantage in 2v2, which is one of the "smaller teams".
Originally Posted by gnuoyiy
That's my point, stop comparing warriors to rogues, each brings something different to the table...as well as one having more versatility than the other due to design. I'm not against rogues, but it'd be pretty difficult to give rogues more versatility in 5s with a balanced change.
Rogues and Warriors are both Melee classes, they will be compared when it comes to PvP, that's just the way it is.
Originally Posted by gnuoyiy
I'd assume the population of rogues in top 2s and 3s is much higher than warriors if you looked at the same site.
Then you'd be assuming incorrectly, Warriors destroy Rogues in 2v2 world rankings. Warrior/Paladin, Warrior/Shaman and Warrior/Druid are all very strong teams.
how abuot warriors r leeter and strger than rouges so they sould stop whinging about being underpowered.... just play ur class and apples/oranges are always different so you cant compare every class toanother.... when u rly think about it ms and psn are the same lol, only psn you can keep up and ms can go away allowing for big ns+heal x-x with psns at least it will be up unless the healer spams poison dispell and even then the healer is doing that and not hling.. forcing the healr to do that and not heal is pretty effective IMHO dont u think u no what i say u think i do when u think it, so think about what u say on the forums bc rouges dont think like that, go to warrior forums and pst please not rouge.... besides rouges have lockpiking and warriros dont, lp is op imo, all clas should b able 2 do that.. rouges have cc, warriors hav dps, end of storie
@Kcolraw
Even so, feel free to browse armory on my server. It's VERY PvE centric, 3 Horde guilds in BT, 2 Alliance. We only have 2 Gladiators from Season 1, had 3 Gladiators transfer over during season 2. My 4dps just lost 2 people to quitting (spriest and lock). I know this all sounds like QQ, but it is VERY hard to find top tier players with great arena gear (great is MINIMUM for a good 5v5) and who don't raid 6-7 nights a week. All those people transferring to BG9 aren't just doing it for the competition, with school back in session, summer creating many inactive accounts and the PvP game stagnating, they're transferring to team up with more competitive players. My alt mage (Valrath) at one point had the highest 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 for an mage on the server - I mean, come on.
heh i just looked at your battlegroup's season 1 hall of fame, jesus christ you weren't joking... yeah i think in your situation you are allowed to blame your server :P i feel you though, our server's pvp pool took a massive hit with the tichondrius/bg9 thing too, heh
Its been brought up that rogues work well in a 4dps set-up (and it is true) when fighting 2345. If 4 dps is paper, and 2345 is rock, then tri-healer is scissor.
actually i'd imagine scissor being a rogue-lead 3/2 team, something like rogue/mage/warlock/restosham/pally... tri-healer isn't really scissors to the 2345 rock, but most rogue 3dps teams would generally have a hard time fighting 2345 or any other "classic" warrior-lead 3dps setups
Rogues are GREAT for shutting down 4dps teams. No single class comes close to ramming a 4DPS team so hard as a rogue.
haha wow, i hadn't (hadn't?) even read your post earlier when i was going on about how rogue/dps/dps/heal/heal > 4dps, BUT THERE YA GO! ^__^
Remember in SC and WC3 when people would piss and moan about NE building rushes or Human towers or mass gargoyles or whatever FOTM tactic happened to stomp ass? Blizzard (almost) never changed anything with the game itself, instead letting the playerbase counter it naturally.
actually if i remember right they always fixed the retarded "fotm" tactics as they came along... ancients got nerfed, shamans got nerfed (anyone remember when massing shamans was all the rage? :P)... etc
People say 'The Rise of 4DPS' but as I understand it 4DPS is NOT very competitive in the highest levels of the game. I don't have time to check but I understood there was like 1 team with this setup in the top 20 or 50 teams worldwide.
you can't be more wrong, look at the current bg9 top 20 (...we're talking about competitive 5v5 "in the highest levels of the game", right?) like half the teams are 4dps, and the other half are 2345 that don't even want to queue anymore (because warriors are sick of dying in the duration of one kidney shot)
There is no reason that a warrior can't fulfil a rogues role in such a team either. Hamstring and MS being physical instead of poison is infinitely better
no they're not, hamstring and ms get fucked by bop, poisons don't
..and no paladins/shamans/druids are going to waste gcd's removing poison with 4 people pounding damage on one target
with defensive stance, intervene and spell reflect (not to mention 2k more HP and Commanding Shout), careful warriors can survive just as well as one cloak every 60 seconds (whilst still applying MS with frequent intercepts). As a non-undead rogue I would also kill for the Fear control capabilities of a warrior too. Warriors only die to 4DPS burst when they go out in beserker, pop deathwish with a 2Her because of all the nasty warlock fears and then get instagibbed.
i dunno what kind of superwarriors or terrible 4dps teams you've experienced then, back when i played in a 2345 team (well, with me instead of a mage) our warrior would get overwhelmed with damage even when fighting the whole match in defensive stance and shield out
and you really really underestimate cloak of shadows
A quick scan of geekboys.com shows me that there are perhaps 10-15% 4 DPS teams that makeup the top 150 in the US realms, which use rogues. This is better than how rogues were represented several months ago, but still nothing compared to the number of teams that use good ol war/pld/shm/x/x.
geekboys hasn't updated in weeks -_- can everyone stop referencing it
Gnuoyiy, I'm trying to figure out what you are trying to say, so because a Rogue may (or may not) be better than a Warrior in one gimmicky 5v5 setup, then everything's okay? If not, I'm a little lost.
there are just as many viable 4dps setups you can run as 3dps, you make it sound like every 4dps team plays exactly the same
09/11/07, 6:55 PM
dont u think u no what i say u think i do when u think it, so think about what u say on the forums bc rouges dont think like that, go to warrior forums and pst please not rouge.... besides rouges have lockpiking and warriros dont, lp is op imo, all clas should b able 2 do that.. rouges have cc, warriors hav dps, end of storie
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