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Old 06/13/07, 5:03 PM   #16
toader
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Gnome Warlock
 
Llane
What about if resilience did what it currently did, but in addition it reduced DoT (all DoTs) length by x%?


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Old 06/13/07, 5:12 PM   #17
Kazanir
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Pretty sure that tristantio is implying that not even classes that crit are required to go for stats/talents that improve crit in order to do damage. Take this with a grain of salt since I don't PvP competitively, but it seems to me that if resilience affects burst damage in an over-the-top way, that the manner to compensate would be to stack straight +damage or AP instead, meaning that one would have a higher, more consistent stream of non-crit damage output (similar to DoTs in that way) and thus be less adversely affected by resilience. Obviously that negates a lot of burst damage ability...but maybe that's the point, after all.

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Old 06/13/07, 5:14 PM   #18
nfw
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Warrior
 
Area 52
How about, each time you are affected by a DoT, the next DoT has its effect reduced by 10%?

Or, make them all 1.5 second casts.

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Old 06/13/07, 5:14 PM   #19
Estiarti
 
 
Originally Posted by asur2 View Post
There is no other sustained non-crit damage in the game though.
Originally Posted by Ignayshus View Post
Unless you count poisons and bleed effects.
I still feel like people are forgetting the PVE implications here.

All boss damage can be classified as sustained non-crit damage.

Last edited by Estiarti : 06/13/07 at 5:15 PM. Reason: Can't figure out quoting sorry.

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Old 06/13/07, 5:26 PM   #20
Gwaihir
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Gwaiihir
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Then make it only take effect in PvP. Separate PvE and PvP mechanics are pretty desperately needed when you get to this point in attempting to balance

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Old 06/13/07, 5:27 PM   #21
tristantio
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Originally Posted by Kazanir View Post
Pretty sure that tristantio is implying that not even classes that crit are required to go for stats/talents that improve crit in order to do damage. Take this with a grain of salt since I don't PvP competitively, but it seems to me that if resilience affects burst damage in an over-the-top way, that the manner to compensate would be to stack straight +damage or AP instead, meaning that one would have a higher, more consistent stream of non-crit damage output (similar to DoTs in that way) and thus be less adversely affected by resilience. Obviously that negates a lot of burst damage ability...but maybe that's the point, after all.
That's correct, "sustained non-crit damage" implies just your standard melee hits that didn't crit, as well as spells that didn't crit. (I didn't say, "sustained non-crittable damage")

If warlocks stacked up spell crit at the expense of +damage/stam/resilience, you would see much smaller DoT damage numbers, however warlocks choose to be non-reliant on crit (even though we get a 20% damage bonus to shadow spells for shadow bolt crits, which is as good a bonus as flurry is to warrior DPS since many warriors never have more than 3/5 flurry for the 15% bonus).

Warriors/rogues/hunters could forego +crit entirely and focus primarily on +attack power, just like mages can drop +crit on their armor and go for constant damage.

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Old 06/13/07, 5:30 PM   #22
Shadowed
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Not really, Mutilate Rogues can't drop crit because SF becomes rather useless if you only crit 10% of the time.

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Old 06/13/07, 5:31 PM   #23
Meddler
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Tauren Druid
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Estiarti View Post
I still feel like people are forgetting the PVE implications here.

All boss damage can be classified as sustained non-crit damage.
Was just about to post something along these lines. Any change to resilience that makes it affect general damage will suddenly make it an extremely attractive stat for PVE whereas at present it acts as a nice distinction between PVP and PVE gear, something Blizzard seem quite keen to maintain. Reduced crit damage and chance works so well because any serious tank will have minimised their crit chance anyway, normally through defence and so its PVE impact is limited to the occasional fill in piece or presence in an OT set.

Simply imposing a different ruleset for PVP than PVE is admittedly an option, it's something Blizzard have so far avoided, I'm assuming quite deliberately for reasons of consistency and clarity.

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Old 06/13/07, 5:44 PM   #24
Gorb
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Originally Posted by asur2 View Post
Which are all dots, is there really anything you can compare this to as I really can't think of anything that can't crit that isn't some type of dot.
Lightning shield, thorns, etc.

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Old 06/14/07, 10:58 AM   #25
Trennet
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Undead Warlock
 
Shadow Council
DoTs already incur the cost of taking a long time to do their dmg and are easily removed (heck, there are 4 class skills that remove UA off themselves w/o any negative effects, 3 of which remove entire DoT stacks instantly). The ability to remove DoTs already reduces their effectiveness by a huge amount (e.g. removing Corruption after 15-17.5s = -16% dmg, and removing a DoT w/in 3s = -100% dmg). Direct Damage, of course, does not face these limitations. Moreover, DoT damage is the slowest, most consistent dmg and, if not removed, can be completely anticipated -- thus, the polar opposite of the unanticipated (e.g. burst) dmg that relisience mitigates. People also frequently fail to mention HoTs, comparable in cast time to DoTs and essentially counter at least 1 DoT per Hot.

The strength of DoTs + LoS in 2v2 and 3v3 is a byproduct of map design and imho a poor reason to nerf DoTs in the majority of PvP (e.g. imagine if Nagrand pillars were squares instead). And the strength of "DoT + run" in BGs is a byproduct of disorganized PvP. Should PvP be balanced around organized PvP or balanced according to the assumption that one is always PvPing completely solo and in addition nerfing skills according to the terrain that benefits them most?

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Old 06/14/07, 11:40 AM   #26
Loshiis
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Originally Posted by tristantio View Post
Warriors/rogues/hunters could forego +crit entirely and focus primarily on +attack power, just like mages can drop +crit on their armor and go for constant damage.
I don't necessarily agree with this argument. The benefit of DoTs is their ability to wear a person down, and there is little they can do about it if they cannot dispel them. The benefit of other damage is the ability to burst someone down through crits. The problem is, if non-DoT damage focused more on sustainability instead of burst, the damage is easily negated through LoS (especially problematic for Hunters...), crowd control (including snares), etc...while the DoTs will continue to wear the person down. My point is, non-DoT classes cannot focus on sustainability over burst, because the damage is easily stopped instantly by any form of CC/LoS...while DoT damage is not.

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Old 06/14/07, 2:23 PM   #27
 Bass
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Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post
... making it only work after X damage within Y seconds would be a rather silly change, all you'd end up with is classes that purposely delay damage for the effect to wear off ...
Would that not be resilience's intended effect though? To reduce the speed at which a target dies in PvP? People delaying damage would certainly delay the time of death of that particular individual, would it not?

The idea could of course use more tweaking. But I really don't see how it's not a viable solution to all the resilience whines.

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Old 06/14/07, 2:44 PM   #28
Shadowed
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Delaying death by 5 seconds isn't useful.

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Old 06/14/07, 2:45 PM   #29
Kheletarr
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Stormscale (EU)
Originally Posted by Vitae View Post
As one of the 'resilience is for spike damage' proponents, I'd completely disagree with that form of it. It'd reopen the possibilities of getting two shot by certain combos, since there is a potential for 0% reduction on heavy crits, rather than the current guarantee.
Agree, we don't want more luck factors in this game.

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Old 06/14/07, 2:49 PM   #30
 Bass
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Mordant
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Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post
Delaying death by 5 seconds isn't useful.
Let's take your 5 second number.

If everyone on a 5v5 team took that much longer to die, that's 25 seconds.

You can't tell me that the other people on your team can't do something of importance in 25 seconds. I don't know about you, but whem I'm PvPing I'm very rarely twiddling my thumbs.

Edit - before I get blasted.

person 2 would have 5 extra seconds, 3 would have 10, yada, I understand that. These are still considerable timeframes in a pvp situation.

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