Simple solution for resilience, paralelling it to Blessed Life. Overpowered though? - Page 3

Shadowed · 06/14/07, 3:11 PM

Thats not even a valid argument, most of the games are decided within the first or second death. The current way the system works is fine, what needs to be looked at are DoTs and the multiplier issue with Frost Mages and other classes.

Rephaim · 06/14/07, 3:19 PM

Resilience curbs burst damage.
Resistance curbs magical damage.
Armor curbs physical damage.
Dispells REMOVE DoTs.
Healing fixes all damage.

AP/PoM/Pyro can only be mitigated by Resilience and Resistance. It is burst, and therefore much harder to heal through. 2 Mitigations.
Mortal Strike can only be mitigated by Resilience and Armor. It is burst, and therefore is MUCH harder to heal through.
Backstab/Ambush/Sinister Strike can only be mitigated by Resilience and Armor. It is burst, and therefore is MUCH harder to heal through.
DoTs can be mitigated by Resistance and Dispells. They are over time, and therefore are MUCH easier to heal through and plan for.

In nearly all cases pre-Resilience, Direct Damage won out over DoTs. Resilience has made them more even.

♦ Bass · 06/14/07, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Thats not even a valid argument, most of the games are decided within the first or second death. The current way the system works is fine, what needs to be looked at are DoTs and the multiplier issue with Frost Mages and other classes.

5 seconds could easily prevent a death... bleh. Not sure why this is being so easily dismissed by everybody, but I guess I'm just not seeing something obvious.. I'll drop that point.

Allow me to offer up another idea on the same track though - It doesn't even have to be exactly what I described... maybe something like, depending upon the DPS you're taking, you gain a gradually stacking buff that reduces all hostile damage done to you, with increasing effectiveness as your resilience value goes up? (Probably in addition to what resilience already does, because those fabled 10k pyros could still own you quickly with this system.) Basically I'm just looking for something that would keep ridiculously quick deaths from occurring (as that seems to be Blizzard's aim for the stat) and would also address DoT issues.

Vontre · 06/14/07, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bass

5 seconds could easily prevent a death... bleh. Not sure why this is being so easily dismissed by everybody, but I guess I'm just not seeing something obvious.. I'll drop that point.

Allow me to offer up another idea on the same track though - It doesn't even have to be exactly what I described... maybe something like, depending upon the DPS you're taking, you gain a gradually stacking buff that reduces all hostile damage done to you, with increasing effectiveness as your resilience value goes up? (Probably in addition to what resilience already does, because those fabled 10k pyros could still own you quickly with this system.) Basically I'm just looking for something that would keep ridiculously quick deaths from occurring (as that seems to be Blizzard's aim for the stat) and would also address DoT issues.

I think blizzard's aim for the stat is quite clear from the manner in which they designed it. To reduce the effect of critical strikes. I don't think you can divine any more "intent" than that unless you have a specific blue post or reference to back you up.

Shadowed · 06/14/07, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rephaim

Resilience curbs burst damage.
Resistance curbs magical damage.
Armor curbs physical damage.
Dispells REMOVE DoTs.
Healing fixes all damage.

AP/PoM/Pyro can only be mitigated by Resilience and Resistance. It is burst, and therefore much harder to heal through. 2 Mitigations.
Mortal Strike can only be mitigated by Resilience and Armor. It is burst, and therefore is MUCH harder to heal through.
Backstab/Ambush/Sinister Strike can only be mitigated by Resilience and Armor. It is burst, and therefore is MUCH harder to heal through.
DoTs can be mitigated by Resistance and Dispells. They are over time, and therefore are MUCH easier to heal through and plan for.

In nearly all cases pre-Resilience, Direct Damage won out over DoTs. Resilience has made them more even.

Have you ever played against a stacked Shadow Priest/Warlock team?

Dispelling is an invalid argument, DoTs are fine when it's one Warlock or one Shadow Priest nobodies arguing that, the issue is when you have 2-3 DoT classes in a game, dealing with removing 5-7 and the risk of UA proccing isn't very easy, you also have to deal with healing up the damage that was done to the DoTs in the time it takes you to dispel them all and the damage from regular nukes.

Lets say I have 5 DoTs on me, thats 7.5 seconds spent due to GCD in that time frame you'll probably have taken 2k-4k damage depending on what DoT is removed and what they're nuking you with, in that time they can either use nukes or reapply DoTs making it a losing battle.

Moghedian · 06/14/07, 8:17 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Have you ever played against a stacked Shadow Priest/Warlock team?

I pvp non-competitively in a warlock only 2v2 team, and in a warlock + warlock + holy priest 3v3.

I am that dot team.

Dispelling is an invalid argument,

Why?

More to the point, why are you letting a warlock use a 1.5s cast spell ? If you force a warlock to not stop moving (by putting a melee on him, for example) dispelling is very easy to do. You spam dispel, and know that you will not be dispelling a UA.

Also, Cloak of shadows. Ice Block. DI. All dispel. Why are they invalid arguments?

Direct damage is fine when it's one Rogue or one Warrior nobodies arguing that, the issue is when you have 2-3 Direct Damage classes in a game, dealing with healing 5-7 nukes and the risk of your target dieing before the heal lands isn't very easy,

Fixed. This was the problem at level 60. DoTs were not effective in a DD damage world. Did you pvp much at 60?

I have been playing a Druid in PvP recently. 0/30/31 spec, a PvP healer. I wear full healing gear, and rely on 30 points in the feral tree to stay alive. I picked up the tanking bear talents to help. I try and wear leather, ect.

DoTs are way, way way easier to heal though. I put up 2-3 HoTs, then just start casting HT's. If nightfall procs or Shadow word death, i pop Swiftmend. If more burst is suddenly done, just NS + HT and bam, full hp again.

I lose way more people to a rogue poping someone with ambush and getting a lucky crit or 2 in and them being finished off. Usually, this happens after the heal has gone off, and the mana taken but the target never got the heal. Healers, you know of this "feature".

Resilience is a response. DD is directly nerfed with resilience. This is not a problem, this is the whole reason resilience was added. If you want to change resilience, you need to suggest something that does not allow people to be burst down.

diotox · 06/14/07, 11:37 PM

Quick and dirty blue post that says they are "Looking into" dots and resilence. That's it. No further details given.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=4

Shadowed · 06/14/07, 11:54 PM

I pvp non-competitively in a warlock only 2v2 team, and in a warlock + warlock + holy priest 3v3.

I am that dot team.

Against, not as.

Why?

More to the point, why are you letting a warlock use a 1.5s cast spell ? If you force a warlock to not stop moving (by putting a melee on him, for example) dispelling is very easy to do. You spam dispel, and know that you will not be dispelling a UA.

Also, Cloak of shadows. Ice Block. DI. All dispel. Why are they invalid arguments?

Because you can't always get the perfect case of having an ability up that lets you interrupt it, maybe from DC, or interrupting another spell, or simply got feared by a Priest you can't always interrupt every single cast and you still have to deal with the mass-dots.

Fixed. This was the problem at level 60. DoTs were not effective in a DD damage world. Did you pvp much at 60?

I have been playing a Druid in PvP recently. 0/30/31 spec, a PvP healer. I wear full healing gear, and rely on 30 points in the feral tree to stay alive. I picked up the tanking bear talents to help. I try and wear leather, ect.

DoTs are way, way way easier to heal though. I put up 2-3 HoTs, then just start casting HT's. If nightfall procs or Shadow word death, i pop Swiftmend. If more burst is suddenly done, just NS + HT and bam, full hp again.

I lose way more people to a rogue poping someone with ambush and getting a lucky crit or 2 in and them being finished off. Usually, this happens after the heal has gone off, and the mana taken but the target never got the heal. Healers, you know of this "feature".

Resilience is a response. DD is directly nerfed with resilience. This is not a problem, this is the whole reason resilience was added. If you want to change resilience, you need to suggest something that does not allow people to be burst down.

Good to know, let me just go get a Druid...oh wait

As diotox posted, their looking into it which is good enough for me.

Draele · 06/15/07, 3:12 AM

People call it silly but I'm 100% in favor of having DoTs crit. Yes, the base damage of DoTs would have to go down to factor in the crit-ability of them, but I think in the long run it's for the best.

Why? Two reasons.

1) This PvP conundrum we have here. It would allow DoTs to be effected by Resilience so players (whether they are right or wrong) will quit bitching. If there is a problem it will be fixed. If there isn't a problem the change won't make me cry.

2) As you may know from my previous posts on these forums I have a major gripe with the itemization situation faced by Affliction/Shadow. They throw crit on nearly everything, including set pieces) but we don't want it. It severely limits our upgrade paths as we have to wait around for either a really good set bonus worth giving stats up for, or the traditional "large amounts of +dmg/shadow" pieces that aren't quite so common.

Allowing DoTs to crit will both fix them as far as Resilience goes, and solve a deep seated itemization problem for classes who do large amounts of "non-crittable" damage.

Saburo · 06/15/07, 3:21 AM

The main issue is balancing pve damage and at the same time keeping pvp damage balanced. With the addition of craftable resiliance gems things will only get worse. I would be very surprized if dots are not changed near the begining of Season 2 judging by the blue post.

Ayr · 06/15/07, 4:03 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Have you ever played against a stacked Shadow Priest/Warlock team?

Dispelling is an invalid argument, DoTs are fine when it's one Warlock or one Shadow Priest nobodies arguing that, the issue is when you have 2-3 DoT classes in a game, dealing with removing 5-7 and the risk of UA proccing isn't very easy, you also have to deal with healing up the damage that was done to the DoTs in the time it takes you to dispel them all and the damage from regular nukes.

Lets say I have 5 DoTs on me, thats 7.5 seconds spent due to GCD in that time frame you'll probably have taken 2k-4k damage depending on what DoT is removed and what they're nuking you with, in that time they can either use nukes or reapply DoTs making it a losing battle.

You counter a stacked DoT team with a stacked dispeller team. If you have 5 DoTs on you, it does not take 7.5s to dispell them, it takes 5 or less GCDs (which is exactly how many GCDs were needed to put them up in the first place). Nowhere does it say only 1 person has to spend those GCDs, you can have up to 5 people assigned to the task, depending on your team. The fact that you don't have a team designed to counter the DoT setup is not a matter of DoTs being overpowered, it's simply a matter of your team not being designed properly against that threat.

Another fact is that no DoT does damage instantly. You have up to 3s after the DoT lands to remove it from the afflicted player. Also, dispelling always requires less mana than casting it, so you will end up with the mana efficiency advantage. And for DoTs that proc additional debuffs, such as Priests with Shadoweaving, keep in mind that Priests can dispell 2 magic effects with 1 GCD too.

Shadowed · 06/15/07, 4:08 AM

You can't really stack dispellers, in 2vs2 you'd have too switch to basically an ineffective combo of Holy Paladin or Holy Priest and a Shadow Priest, and in 5vs5 you're still only going to get 3 dispellers at the most and thats if you use a Shadow Priest, and you'd still have misc damage like regular nukes and the other 2-3 enemy players doing damage. Between fears, DC, and silences you aren't going to be able to keep up with it the damage or curing easly once it starts hitting multiple people.

Blizzards said they're looking into it, as long as they don't do something stupid like make DoTs completely useless unless you stack them with multiple players, it should hopefully balance things out a bit without causing huge issues.

Ayr · 06/15/07, 4:29 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

You can't really stack dispellers, in 2vs2 you'd have too switch to basically an ineffective combo of Holy Paladin or Holy Priest and a Shadow Priest, and in 5vs5 you're still only going to get 3 dispellers at the most and thats if you use a Shadow Priest, and you'd still have misc damage like regular nukes and the other 2-3 enemy players doing damage. Between fears, DC, and silences you aren't going to be able to keep up with it the damage or curing easly once it starts hitting multiple people.

Blizzards said they're looking into it, as long as they don't do something stupid like make DoTs completely useless unless you stack them with multiple players, it should hopefully balance things out a bit without causing huge issues.

In 2v2 there is no need to stack dispellers, you simply need to use a team that eats DoT users for breakfast. Like rogue+ feral druid.

In 5v5, what other 2-3 enemies doing damage? You already said 2-3 DoT capable classes that are applying the DoTs. Does this mean the enemy team is composed entirely of dps-ers and no healers? Or is their holy priest dotting up? In either case, it really shouldn't be a problem. Regarding fears, DC and silences, that goes under CC, and all the classes have their own CC and/or means to counter it. Not to mention fears, DC and silences can all be dispelled by defensive dispellers.

Kegsta · 06/15/07, 6:30 AM

The problem is that all shadow priest and lock dots apply a secondary effect (and i think the warlocks one gets reapplied whenever a dot ticks) along with an affliction locks resist dispel tallent, dispelling is much harder than it seems. If they change the Dots to be attempted to clense first instead of having to dispel shadow vunribility and shadow embrace, that might make it a bit better.

I agree the arenas LOSing needs tuning a bit, making the poles square would be an excellent start.

Keline · 06/15/07, 6:34 AM

Originally Posted by Bass

Let's take your 5 second number.

If everyone on a 5v5 team took that much longer to die, that's 25 seconds.

90% of 5on5 matches are decided when it turns 4on5.