Simple solution for resilience, paralelling it to Blessed Life. Overpowered though? - Page 4

Maynard · 06/15/07, 10:26 AM

My issue with DoTs is not one of balance per se, but that a large component of your gear effectively becomes irrelevent against certain team compositions. Nobody enjoys having hard earned gear be an irrelevent variable in an encounter.

tristantio · 06/15/07, 11:05 AM

Couldn't they average or assume a "base" high crit-rate for affliction warlocks, say 15%.

Now, reduce all DoTs' damage by 6% since a 15% nerf would be over-compensation, since there won't be a talent like ruin that doubles the crit bonus for DoTs, the DoTs that crit will be doing 150% damage, not 200% damage.

In the event the warlock had more than 15% crit his DoTs would be more efficient in PvE raiding, if he had less his DoTs would be less efficient. Also crit would be desirable for the DoT damage over time effect and keeping up improved shadow bolt.

Let's say a corruption does 2000 damage currently throughout it's cycle. Over 100 casts you would have done 200,000 damage (assume no variance for this).

Now assuming the same spell damage and a 15% crit rate, with a 6% damage nerf overall you would have:
Non-crit Corruption: .94 * 2000 = 1880 damage
Crit corruption: 1880 * 1.5 = 2820

85 non-crit Corruptions totaling: 85 * 1840 = 159,800 damage
15 crit Corruptions totaling: 15 * 2820 = 42,300
Total damage of: 202,100

Now, if someone had 25% crit rate, they would have:
70,500 crit DoT damage + 138,000 non-crit damage = 208,500

If someone had a 0% crit rate they would have:
188,000 damage

Anyways, that brings me to the point about critting DoTs and PvP. If all DoTs suffered a damage nerf, the average 2000 damage DoT would be doing 1880 damage instead.

The average crit DoT would be doing 2820, until you factor in resilience, which could reduce it by up to 20%, making it not much better than a non-crit DoT.

Overall though, for them to not slaughter warlock DPS their nerf to DoTs to make them work with resilience is going to have to end up being very minuscule.

Sumie · 06/15/07, 11:48 AM

Dispelling is an invalid argument, DoTs are fine when it's one Warlock or one Shadow Priest nobodies arguing that, the issue is when you have 2-3 DoT classes in a game, dealing with removing 5-7 and the risk of UA proccing isn't very easy, you also have to deal with healing up the damage that was done to the DoTs in the time it takes you to dispel them all and the damage from regular nukes.

This coming from a rogue who can wipe ALL those DoT's every minute with no penalty.

In any case, you're correct that one Warlock or one Shadowpriest alone is not that powerful. It's the combination of 5-6 DoT's + stacked mindflays/shadowbolts where the burst really shines.

Furthermore the above 2 classes stack raw +dmg, while mages, instead of adapting to a high resilience environment, still roll with their +700 dmg and 30% crit rate.

IMO, I would be fine with a change like this:

If a target has more than 8 debuffs on him, every 100 resilience will shave off 1% damage from each DoT.

Shadowed · 06/15/07, 11:53 AM

I could post on a Warrior or Priest if it makes you feel better since it wont be from "That evil class with the ability to wipe everything".

In 2v2 there is no need to stack dispellers, you simply need to use a team that eats DoT users for breakfast. Like rogue+ feral druid.

In 5v5, what other 2-3 enemies doing damage? You already said 2-3 DoT capable classes that are applying the DoTs. Does this mean the enemy team is composed entirely of dps-ers and no healers? Or is their holy priest dotting up? In either case, it really shouldn't be a problem. Regarding fears, DC and silences, that goes under CC, and all the classes have their own CC and/or means to counter it. Not to mention fears, DC and silences can all be dispelled by defensive dispellers.

Right, so change your entire setup/playstyle in 2vs2.

If a team had a Shadow Priest/Warlock chances are they'll have 2 other DPS and a healer, if they have 3 DoT classes then it'll be closer to 1 DPS/1 healer. You also have to deal with healing through nukes like SWD which are still instant cast.

Beregon · 06/19/07, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowed

Delaying death by 5 seconds isn't useful.

5 seconds even with lag is 3+ GCD's and is half a swiftmend cooldown. It's long enough to cast any heal in the game and multiples in many cases. It's almost long enough for a Lifebloom to tick out completely.

Delaying death by 5 seconds is enough for the target to get another heal.

Shadowed · 06/19/07, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Beregon

5 seconds even with lag is 3+ GCD's and is half a swiftmend cooldown. It's long enough to cast any heal in the game and multiples in many cases. It's almost long enough for a Lifebloom to tick out completely.

Delaying death by 5 seconds is enough for the target to get another heal.

100% -> 40% -> bonus activates -> 80% -> 0%

If they take enough damage to activate the bonus then they'll die once it fades since you also have to deal with debuffs like MS.

♦ Bass · 06/19/07, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

I think blizzard's aim for the stat is quite clear from the manner in which they designed it. To reduce the effect of critical strikes. I don't think you can divine any more "intent" than that unless you have a specific blue post or reference to back you up.

I spent far too long looking for a direct quote about it, with no success, so I suppose that lowers the value of my point. (The time at which these kind of things were being developer discussed was roughly the BC beta era.) However, I recall explicitly their reason for the stamina boost with burning crusade was the rampant 2-shotting that was occurring far too often in old-world PvP. Some developer interview or blue post I think.

I really don't understand how Resilience isn't just a different tool for reducing damage and preventing those kinds of quick deaths/extreme DPS. So, the reason we can't just find a different way to reduce spike damage, a far more effective one that takes into account all non-critical spike damage, eludes me. PvE implications? Maybe. That seems a simple task to overcome though - just addend "from player sources" to the end of the stat. The coding is there, CoD can't affect players, so obviously there exists a marker to specify PC/NPC. It might also reduce cries of PvP gear coming out ahead of PvE gear in PvE.

In any case. I don't see how you can resolve this DoT/etc. issue without overhauling resilience completely (or just lrning2play, as others would put it). It isn't built to help players with non-crit, duration damage right now. Maybe the developers don't want to put the effort to remake something this crucial this late in the development of BC.

Simpler/"band-aid" solutions? Add spell resist to pvp items, or have resilience add that spell resist. Have it also reduce all damage done by ridiculously small percentages. Easy to implement but perhaps not the most ideal way to get it done. Also arguably punishing to certain classes that don't really require the nerf. (Mages come to mind.)

Anyway, I'm just spilling the contents of my mind. Feel free to pick me apart.