Does anyone even bother with arcane specs for high-end arena? All the top mages I've seen are frost and as far as I can tell for very good reasons. Nerfing AP PoM pyro pretty much killed arcane - frost now provides similar if not better burst (and frost burst can be used a lot more often), automatically-applied snare with dispel protection (winter's chill), and much much better survivability. Only thing you're losing is an instant cast (arcane barrage which was also nerfed) and slowing cast/attack speed (since frost only slows movement). Since those patch changes I see absolutely no point in speccing arcane over frost for arenas.
Does anyone even bother with arcane specs for high-end arena? All the top mages I've seen are frost and as far as I can tell for very good reasons. Nerfing AP PoM pyro pretty much killed arcane - frost now provides similar if not better burst (and frost burst can be used a lot more often), automatically-applied snare with dispel protection (winter's chill), and much much better survivability. Only thing you're losing is an instant cast (arcane barrage which was also nerfed) and slowing cast/attack speed (since frost only slows movement). Since those patch changes I see absolutely no point in speccing arcane over frost for arenas.
I agree, especially with the upcoming change to impact, which will remove the rng stun from arcane spells. It's kinda sad when you have a ranged 10% rng stun and are barely viable. They will need to re-buff arcane in some way if they want to see arcane in arena.
Awesome, thanks for the help with the PvP spec. I'd been wracking my brain trying to find the perfect combo, I guess I have to lose some points in some areas, but I appreciate the thought process and effort put into this. Peace.
Fire doesn't do very well in arenas, but if you are crazy like me and do go down that road, in 3.09 what you basically do is build a typical PVE deep fire spec (the 51 points to living bomb spent the same way spent on dps talents same as in an a frostfire build except you skip improved fire talent, cause you'll never get a 3s spell off) and then try to work in the following talents that aren't normally found in such a build:
3/3 Impact (10% rng stun on melee hits, plus on every spell you cast)
2/2 Molten shields (10% rng stun on ranged attack hits too)
1/1 Blast Wave
1/1 Dragon's Breath
2/2 Firestarter (these 4 points give you a nice set of instant aoe bursts with on-demand disorient and knockback)
2/2 Fiery Payback (entirely for the damage reduction)
That takes 11 points of the 18 normally spent in frost, but you got 3 back for improved fire. So you can get to icy veins if you shave off one more point somewhere else (flamethrowing perhaps). It's unlikely much else is going to help you in any tree, although blazing speed and fiery determination have very tiny benefits that sometimes are helpful. I like the burst and pushback protection of icy veins better though and will tend to find a way to squeeze it in (frostbite/ice flows/permafrost on the way to get there...they help a little with your frost spells)
Your stand-and-shoot rotation is scorch-fireblast-hot streak pyroblast. Your mobile dps relies more heavily on the aoe stuff. Frost nova+ice lance and cone of cold are also helpful in kiting situations, if not as powerful as when a frost mage does it.
I find this kind of build quite fun in battlegrounds but in high end arena I'm not qualified to speculate as I'm just a bad arena player. From a pure theoretical standpoint, it's defensive tricks don't compare to either arcane or frost, its burst is only comparable, better only in aoe mode and the stun isn't reliable (and is essentially going away in 3.1). So I am not at all suprised you don't see fire mages in arena above 1500 rating.
What's a good macro for you're water elemental and casting freeze? My current macro is
#showtooltip Summon Water Elemental
/castsequence rest=120 summon water elemental, freeze, freeze, freeze, freeze, freeze
It works great until i use coldsnap. It usually just shuts the macro down. Is there any macro to bind freeze to my frost nova button when my pet is out and freeze is off cool down and if those conditions are not met it will just cast frost nova? I've looked at many different sites and there are no macros that complex that i can find.
You can do some of that stuff using the [pet] and [nopet] modifiers, but you will never be able to choose spell depending on their cooldowns, only depending on whether or not the pet is out. I don't really see the usefulness of the macro you describe, as frost nova and freeze are two quite different spells. Freeze also require aiming with the mouse, and can be cast far away, it will get very confusing if you don't know which one is going to cast when you click the button.
What's a good macro for you're water elemental and casting freeze? My current macro is
#showtooltip Summon Water Elemental
/castsequence rest=120 summon water elemental, freeze, freeze, freeze, freeze, freeze
It works great until i use coldsnap. It usually just shuts the macro down. Is there any macro to bind freeze to my frost nova button when my pet is out and freeze is off cool down and if those conditions are not met it will just cast frost nova? I've looked at many different sites and there are no macros that complex that i can find.
Most people use some variant of the following:
#showtooltip
/cast [target=pet,dead] Summon Water Elemental; [nopet] Summon Water Elemental
/cast [pet] Freeze
There's several ways to construct the macro - in general, the goal is to create something that will a) summon the pet if it is not out/dead; and b) activate the WE Freeze targeting reticule if the pet is up.
Ya that looks like what i'm looking for Vectivus, but i don't understand what's the point of /cast [target=pet,dead] Summon Water Elemental is. The rest makes sense tho. Thanks again.
Last edited by iampeebrain : 04/16/09 at 11:58 AM.
Ya that looks like what i'm looking for Vectivus, but i don't understand what's the point of /cast [target=pet,dead] Summon Water Elemental is. The rest makes sense tho. Thanks again.
To be honest, I'm not positive - I just grabbed one I found using a forum search as an example. You could probably omit it. I would recommend testing it, figuring out where you run into issues, and then letting it evolve from there.
Ya that looks like what i'm looking for Vectivus, but i don't understand what's the point of /cast [target=pet,dead] Summon Water Elemental is. The rest makes sense tho. Thanks again.
I think without that line if you have a dead water elemental that's not yet despawned (so you still have a pet bar) then the macro won't re-summon a pet until it's gone.
I'm using that build now for arenas: The World of Warcraft Armory
But most of the battles against healers + tank, last more than 2m and I end up losing.
I would like to find the talents that could give me a good burst damage without losing too much survivability.
How much brain freeze and deep freeze are worth? Since I will have to loose arcane potency, prismatic cloak and improved blink. (I basically need spells that don't need too much spell power, like arcane potency)
I'm having trouble deciding whether to put my last talent point in either Deep Freeze or Pressence of Mind, I have 20 in arcane and 50 in frost, I'm new to the arena and don't know whether it would be better to have the instant shot with pressence of mind macroed in with icy veins and some trinkets for burst damage or to have the stun with deep freeze, I'm thinking I would be better off with the burst but I have never speced in frost "I have been arcane for a long time but have come to find that it's survivability in the arena is next to nil". Do any frost mages ever use Deep Freeze or is it just a waste when comparing it with PoM?
I'm having trouble deciding whether to put my last talent point in either Deep Freeze or Pressence of Mind, I have 20 in arcane and 50 in frost, I'm new to the arena and don't know whether it would be better to have the instant shot with pressence of mind macroed in with icy veins and some trinkets for burst damage or to have the stun with deep freeze, I'm thinking I would be better off with the burst but I have never speced in frost "I have been arcane for a long time but have come to find that it's survivability in the arena is next to nil". Do any frost mages ever use Deep Freeze or is it just a waste when comparing it with PoM?
In general, PoM is quite weak for a frost build and Deep Freeze is considered quite a bit better. PoM will usually not really help your burst since you could often cast an Ice Lance instead for almost as much damage. PoMing a polymorph is probably the best use, but it can't really compared to a stun on a significantly shorter cooldown.
So, what I'm understanding is that (at least at the moment) there's not a good pyro spec that can work for arenas? I know solbergb said what works for him for BGs, but obviously BGs and Arenas are two different things. Personally, this is really disappointing, as I HATE frost specs... Has anyone come up with a good arena spec that at least uses fire since the latest patch??
In general, PoM is quite weak for a frost build and Deep Freeze is considered quite a bit better. PoM will usually not really help your burst since you could often cast an Ice Lance instead for almost as much damage. PoMing a polymorph is probably the best use, but it can't really compared to a stun on a significantly shorter cooldown.
Really, you don't think there is any value in having a macro that links PoM with Icy Veins and a trinket that combined gives you the ability of having an instant cast frost bolt or frost fire bolt that can be cast on the run while adding 400+ spellpower behind it with the trinket pop? I guess I'm to used to being arcane and trying to pump out as much damage as quickly as I can. So basically all frost is in the arena for is control, not damage?
Frankly, I have been a little beset by the absolute dearth of strategy guides on (other-than-frost) specs for both arena and BGs. The amount of time and effort devoted to raid encounter, personal DPS rotation and theory (both here and elsewhere) is legendary. Yet, a "how to deal with a feral druid as a mage" is particularly hard to find. Reliable and credible information (a hallmark of this site) for PvP mages is just not available.
What I will say, constructively, is that I believe non-frost specs *can* be viable with some creative use of gear and strategy. In my case, I am learning how to fight with arcane/frost and beside the difference in shields and one extra CC, there are definite possibilities when paired with a deep frost mage or even a warlock in 2's.
If there are like-minded mages out there (and there appears to be) who by choice do not want to play 20/0/51 (arcane specifically but fire as well), then I strongly suggest we heighten the level of this discussion on this forum. I will do my best to begin the discussion with some basic strategy in my next post.
This is my first season in the arena. I am an Arcane Mage, I don’t intend to be anything but an arcane mage, Frost is too weak and Fire is too slow for arena battles. I have teamed up with a ret paly and we are doing ok I guess, he has been a tank from day one and doesn’t quite understand the mechanics of arena battles being something other than something you can run into, stand in one place and beat things down over time, but he is getting much better.
We are both modestly geared, we have about half the hateful set and should be finishing that set out tonight which should help us in a big way.
Our general strategy is for him to be the bait, he goes up and draws the other two in while I pop invisibility and get set up from a distance. As soon as he draws them out I target one, hopefully the healer if it works right and I burn them down before they know what’s going on. I pop mirror images to bring me out of invisibility and try to get off one arcane blast to get the stack going, once the first arcane blast connects I use a PoM macro that combines 2 trinket pops for 600+ spell power, icy veins for increased casting speed and links them all to another arcane blast, if missile barrage procs I cast that and if it doesn’t I hit them with an arcane barrage followed by a quick fire blast if they aren’t dead… I would say only 1 out of 15 players can stand being hit by that combination, it’s almost always a fatal.
The problem comes when we are dealing with classes that have a lot of control options, especially rogues… It seems like every time we face a healer and a rogue the rogue somehow miraculously finds me before I come out of invisibility and I stand there while he rapes me from behind “I will say that it takes a special person to be a rogue, skulking around unseen and popping out just in time to ass rape someone, you guys rule…” But I will leave my prejudices there… freakin rogues…
But yeah, for being new to the arena we are doing fairly well, we were at about 50/50 before last night which I think is decent seeing as how we are new and aren’t really geared for the arena per say…
I will say this, when we come up against other mage something else combos “and yes, they are all frost mage combos” we destroy them, I can burn down a frost mage before he has time to cry to his water elemental that the big bad arcane mage is destroying him… Or maybe we have just been seeing a lot of other noob frost mage something else combos like us, who knows???
Last edited by Kermits-finger : 04/28/09 at 11:07 AM.
This is my preferred spec and it definitely has the highest burst, plus you can finish up your burst combos with a scorch / fireblast shatter combo for a guaranteed hot streak. Use Ice Armor with this spec for improved kiting and crit bonus from frost bite. Your fights are a combination of scorches, instants, setting up shatter combos and keeping your opponent cc'd through db, bw & impact. Scorch when you are close - use FFB after DB, at range or during frost nova / frostbite when they are out of escape CDs.
And yes, don't second guess yourself, putting the floating point in MoE can be a good idea.
This spec is low on talents in the fire build, but you may have to move around some fire talents to get your preferred pvp talents. You will have to give up talents you would prefer not to... Moving the TTW points to frostbite can be a good change for added survivability.
This one is about cc and well timed burst and really being able to destroy someone in a few hits if you bide your time correctly. Don't forget Cold of Cone as its a great instant and a good way to get torment the weak in play before you DB for that extra punch on fireball. Fireball hits very hard on this build, so fit it in on DBs and the occasional frost nova.
Keep Ice Armor up and switch to mage armor when needed.
Side note - Empowered Fireball is a great talent for a pvp build as it really adds a lot to your big hits... and you should be getting off one to two FBs/FFBs per fight.
Last edited by dralarn : 04/28/09 at 11:40 AM.
Reason: Corrected link.
This is my first season in the arena. I am an Arcane Mage, I don’t intend to be anything but an arcane mage, Frost is too weak and Fire is too slow for arena battles.
You are 1) Not building your frost spec correctly, 2) not using your frost spec correctly, 3) have not been paying attention to frost mages in arena, or 4) a combination of 1, 2, and 3. I was a frost mage back in BC, and have continued to be Frost for both arena and raiding with my secondary spec being Arcane PvE. If you're heartset, it's even quite possible to build a PvP/PvE frost spec that specializes in AoE raid damage and control, which translates well to PvP in general. Unfortunately, I'm at work at the moment and so cannot link any talent calculator so I can't spout an exmple out for another two hours or so. I will do so at the earliest opportunity!
As has been mentioned, PoM doesn't really do much for Frost, even with the +30% crit. So here's a Season 6 breakdown of specs, coming from someone who has played deep in all three trees in Arena and battlegrounds.
Arcane: With the various talent changes since the 'original' WotLK tree setup, Arcane has lost a fair bit of its 'umph' in Arena, but isn't exactly a slouch. It has high spellpower and comeback potential, and in any setup where you can get away [likely through instant Invisibility] the correct glyphs can give you another go at bursting down an opponent. The problem comes with actually disengaging. Even with a few points in frost and frost armor, your get-away potential is relatively poor with only a powerful Blink, single shot of Ice Block, and Frost Novas for rooting. You are especially potent against other spellcasters because of your high potential for resistances and misses, but not very strong against melee even if you take the Intx1.5=+Armor talent, since your mana can only take so much of a beating through mana shield. When allowed to do uninterrupted DPS cycles you can smash most opponents in short order, which is good because you probably won't get many, much less long, opportunities to do so.
--Stats: Spellpower and Crit are the name of the game once you have survivability of an HP pool and appreciable resilience. Spirit is useful in longer matches but should not be a priority. Intelligence is powerful as it boosts mana, regen, crit, and spellpower. Make sure you have enough hit and penetration to be viable, although this is not to say that hit capping against a Belf priest should be your top priority.
Fire: Fire's problem lays in how PvE focused it is even with PvP flavor talents. The problem with fire's PvP talents is that they simply do not increase your survivability enough. Another problem is access to truly powerful burst because of your reliance on procs for instant casts and the length of fireball casting. In twos or threes, fire is likely unable to have the peeling and isolation necessary to do well. In fives, fire has much more potential because of its ability to selectively burst, however, and AoE with DB, BW, and FS. The flip side is that without a team that can and does peel you will drop even faster. Assuming your team setup and strategy is favorable, your can do well, at least in the lower ratings [speaking from experience, with the lower rating caveat from the limit of that experience]. Timing a Living Bomb explosion with Dragon's Breath --> instant FS = boomboom. For single target this would be more like LB explosion, Fireball and instant Pyro. Getting Death Grip and face pwned = not so hot. You can only burn hot as long as you can sustain yourself, so Mana gem bonuses are important as well as other mana shaving.
--Stats: With recent stat changes, spirit gear is not a joke for fire considering the crit and regen you gain from it. Fire needs as much burst and longevity as it can get, which means Spellpower, Crit, and Stamina are your priorities with an eye to resilience if you have a healer keeping you standing.
Frost Frost's success in PvP hasn't really changed all that much, or should be looked at as 'the more things change...'. It's not the god it was in BC for a lot of reasons, but has never become weak. Ice Barrier with Shattered Barrier makes your access to Frost Nova rooting practically prolific even without glyphs, and Frostbite is still an essential. Water Elemental is what it always has been: extra damage with Freeze effects. You get double Ice Block, which in longer matches can actually become three (I have yet to see the chance for four). Short cast nuke, Ice Lance, shatter, hasn't changed. The addition of Deep Freeze is critical, even with the thirty second cooldown. Barring instagib you WILL have a chance to use it, if for no other reason that Fingers of Frost. For all of the potential of Frost, however, once your mana is out, you're done. One Evocate and at most two Mana Gem cooldowns are all you have, so glyphing and 2pc T7 are essential to your longevity. You last much longer than Fire in terms of mana, but do not have the recovery power of Arcane, so once your [albiet effectively large] fuel tank runs out you're effectively done.
--Stats: Spellpower and Haste are your focus stats after you have a comfortable HP pool, mana pool, and resilience. Spirit should be avoided. PvP gear and Shatter make crit very easily obtained and less useful because of your focus on speed over more crits like fire and arcane. This means that various PvE gear becomes very attractive once you have enough resilience because there are many many items itemized Int/Stam/SP/Haste and ways to splash just enough hit to meet your neets. More and better PvP is always good for you, but a slot item with haste is often better than the clone item with crit.
All of that said, keep in mind that there is a good reason for each spec to get PvP gear, especially with the latest batch of Wintergrasp items [break trinkets with haste, hit, or spellpower instead of resilience]. Keep in mind that the devs are very conscious of the need players have of mixing a little hit in with their spec's primary chase stats, the reason why you'll see clone-value items with the same template and just trading hit, haste, crit, and spirit. This lets you be far more selective about what PvE gear you do include. Glyphs are somewhat spec and preference dependant, but Mana Gem, Evocation, and armor-of-choice are all strong contenders. It's usually better to focus on longevity and mana over damage when choosing glyphs, but burst is crucial to arenas. YMMV.
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Hi, I have previously been a pve only mage, but with this new dual spec system I'm rethinking things. I have never made a pvp spec nor have much of any idea on where to go. So far I have been just using my FFB raiding spec to pvp with and my pve gear (it works well if I get lucky 10k-11k crits). I have collected 4 pieces of hateful (have everything except chest) from VoA and I am wondering what is a good spec/gem setup/stats to go for. I've heard arcane is good for starting as its easier to use than frost but frost is better for well geared people. My gear is currently well geared pre-3.1 naxx 25 gear (mostly) (through strings of bad luck still don't have T7 or T7.5 helm).
Generally, I want to just do world (and Wintergrasp) pvp with some battlegrounds at the moment. I haven't found anyone yet for doing arena with so that'll come later.
What he says. Honestly, is there any mage here who doesn't see electric hands on an opposing mage and doesn't start spamming spell steal? I know I sure as hell do.
Cs before using ap, he ll ice block and pet to avoid being completely hammered, after his ice block slow and spell steal em then finishs with your instants or missle proc. make sure you have that fireblast glyph. Honestly, frost mages are overated. I love seeing their faces when they do absolutely no damage to me with their pet while theyre iceblocked. Frostward+ glyph+ dampen magic, and a shield change during fight. Out gearing me is their only hope against me.
Arcane mages were actually perfered at the Intel Extreme Masters in the 3v3 WoW tournament. In fact the top two teams in the world were PMR where the Mages were POM-Ivy spec (57-3-11) and the rogues were shadow step. However, despite this frost is the prefered sepc for American players due to its survivability, and potential to put out huge dps with shatter combos.
Arcane is being played, it's just harder to put together a comp that calls for an arcane mage. I'm going to get yelled at if I try to guess at an arcane spec, so instead I'm going to link one I saw being used by Laen-Akama when he was talking about arc/disc 2v2. It's nothing too radical, but it's probably tuned to his particular comp. Arcane glyphs are also beyond me.
Everything in the arcane tree outside of improved cs, TtW, and range is subject to team and taste. You can make room for 1/3 improved blizzard to break stealth on players with a damage absorb active. Some people prefer full frost warding and CttB over self-only replenishment. You can also replace the mana gem glyph, but you'll find it very difficult to give up evocation or ice barrier.
Thanks to [Platinum Disks of Swiftness] from Wintergrasp, anyone can get enough haste to play with different shatter combos. About 350 haste and IV is enough for fb/il/il in a deep freeze. About 500 haste rating with IV should allow four lances in a deep freeze. At max range from a pet nova, you can even get fb/il/il without the DF. The mage WG rewards are very nice for this, but remember that the hat and boots are lower item level (hateful) than the chest and belt (deadly). Your t7.5 pants and shoulders are also exceptionally well itemized and 2t7 is strong in pvp.
If you're asking about the battlegrounds, you want replenishment for your healers. Without easy pillar drinking for everyone, arcane can't honestly compete with that in a BG you're trying to win.
Originally Posted by Kyth
The only true error is in not learning how to make your second kill better.
Arcain focus is almost usless for pvp. However i dose offer reduced mana consumtion and with a 40-0-20 spec you may need it more than arcane subdtlety or arc stabbility! I personaly like the good old frost mage!
Arcain focus is almost usless for pvp. However i dose offer reduced mana consumtion and with a 40-0-20 spec you may need it more than arcane subdtlety or arc stabbility! I personaly like the good old frost mage!
I am not sure how much benefit you get in PVP for Arcane Focus, but in the Arena I buff my DK partner with this and Dampen Magic aswell as the Intellect buff, because the way I see it every little helps. In a BG it is probably not worth the worry anyway with the amount of times you end up dead and losing all buffs anyway.
I have tried all specs in PVP and have found that the one that keeps me alive longest is the Frost Spec of some variant. The Ice Barrier is too important to overlook and being so far down the Frost tree it makes sense to use this spec to its potential. I personally use 18 points in Arcane to also gain Torment the Weak as I feel the 12% added bonus makes all the difference in taking an opponent down.