I think mages might end up in a tough spot in pvp next in 3.2 because of mana concerns. When damage is down 10% for everyone games might last a decent length (as healing becomes potentially too strong) and as frost your mana can really be depleted quite quickly (even assuming you get an evo off and use a gem). I wonder if some efficiency changes will be coming, or if we will have to start taking frost channeling (in my case I choose not to get clearcasting, just because I play mage/lock, might have to pick that up too if I play any other brackets).
I wonder if other people think mana might be an issue, because when our CDs are down we will have to be careful, as its pretty easy to go oom with pvp gear mana pools.
Hit is still pretty important, though spell pen is actually more important usually. The World of Warcraft Armory I am currently in pvp gear and have 94 hit rating, which is a little bit under the cap (5% = 105 hit rating, aside from racials/talents)
So if you can get around 100 thats really good enough, also you want around 100-110 spell pen. You can grab precision but really you want to get the hit to put those talents elsewhere because there are lots of good frost talents, and you are going to have to miss some for it.
After you have the hit and spell pen above then I would recommend working on spell dmg/haste.
76 spell penetration will outweight Mark of the Wild, getting any more than that is only helpful against paladin teams with frost aura, meaning it's not really worth going for as other damage stats will help against all teams including paladin teams.
Spell hitcap is 4%, not 5%, unless the target has some specific talent or racial that gives extra resist. Unless you are expecting a big number of paladin opponents you're probably better off going for other damage stats past 4% as those will help against everyone.
Against other mages you want the spell pen also, and against paladin teams you dont want to have to deal with resists when they have 60ish frost resist over your pene.
I cant remember atm if other classes have resist talents, but some might also. All I can say is at a high level you really arent going to want to deal with resists, because they can change the game. If you dont believe me that 100 or more is a good number you can check literally every top mages pvp gear and see that they utilize it also (and i make decisions on my own, but they are more knowledgeable and skilled than me, so they are good source of info)
Not sure where to post this, though maybe a new thread in this forum for each of the BGs would be really nice.
But, right now what I'd like to know about is how the queue'ing system works and what steps can be taken to avoid 40 minute queues in WSG if you would like to run with a premade group. Basically every group that I've been with has fallen apart in the last year as a result of queue times.
So, while I'm not trying to QQ, I'm interested in knowing if there are any ways of avoid this.
I am also not sure where to post this, but a thread for twinks would be nice.
My question is this: Are level 19 mage twinks viable? I know due to the huge castration Blizz did at the last patch, most people are going to the level 39 bracket and trying. Assuming you could get all the BoP's needed from instances (I.E. - bracers & robes from RFC, and gloves from DM, ect.), and have them enchanted with the non-level cap enchants (I.E. - the AC +15 SP to bracers). Would this make an effective boost or just be a huge waste of time?
This probably seems like hand holding, but this site seems to have the therory crafting community that is unparalleled and can answer this.
Not sure where to post this, though maybe a new thread in this forum for each of the BGs would be really nice.
But, right now what I'd like to know about is how the queue'ing system works and what steps can be taken to avoid 40 minute queues in WSG if you would like to run with a premade group. Basically every group that I've been with has fallen apart in the last year as a result of queue times.
So, while I'm not trying to QQ, I'm interested in knowing if there are any ways of avoid this.
After the change to the queue'n system the author changed the addon to be able to queue for any BG, and it works well as long as you're close the maximum amount for the BG you're queue'n for.
I am also not sure where to post this, but a thread for twinks would be nice.
My question is this: Are level 19 mage twinks viable? I know due to the huge castration Blizz did at the last patch, most people are going to the level 39 bracket and trying. Assuming you could get all the BoP's needed from instances (I.E. - bracers & robes from RFC, and gloves from DM, ect.), and have them enchanted with the non-level cap enchants (I.E. - the AC +15 SP to bracers). Would this make an effective boost or just be a huge waste of time?
This probably seems like hand holding, but this site seems to have the therory crafting community that is unparalleled and can answer this.
What exactly do you mean by viable? People will still do it, you will still be able to get items that are very powerful for your level, the main difference being you will be fighting mostly other twinks who have XP turned off so you wont get to just go in there and stomp people.
I think twinking in general will slow down because people wont be able ot just dominate. I think it will still happen because i do not believe twinks are there just because they love destroying people and are terrible at lvl 80 pvp (common ideas for twink haters). I used to play a twink and it was mainly because I wanted an alt but didnt want to spend the time to get to 70
The trouble with efficiency is not typically one I'm worried about, as I take Channeling anyway, but I can see where it can be highly problematic. However, at the stated 10% damage reduction, even with reduced healing, mana put into mana shield and Frost Barrier [and even the elemental wards] will go a bit farther...which is really making me consider dropping the Icy Veins glyph for the Frost Barrier one. The thing I'm curious about is how much this will help Arcane and Fire in PvP, because that much reduction of incoming damage could make them less glass and more cannon. Expecting other teams to have the same reduction would make bursts in lockdown windows even more vital since you're going to need every spare bit of damage you can get. I suspect we'll still end up with Frost > Arcane > Fire, but the gap may be lower.
I've thought a lot about the Spell Penetration issue, and use of the cloak enchant and two Spell-pen gems for a total of 75 SPen as a base seems to be a 'must' with the extent of druids in all team comps. On teams without druids, it's enough to nearly negate Magic Absorption's benefit or overcome a talented Mage Armor. Going for additional spell pen is useful against specific compositions or opponents, but the only method of stacking pen without killing your other stats would come from your weapon, wand, and off-hand as these are easily swappable mid-match. Currently the available extra SPen is:
[Furious Gladiator's Piercing Touch] - Wand, 31 SPen [Furious Gladiator's Grimoire] - Off-hand, 55 SPen
Access to Dragon's Eyes will yield a 35 SPen gem in 3.2, up to 3 ( 105 SPen? crazy O_o)
Blue socket in Furious Spellblades - 20/25 SPen, 10/13 if purple or green
Blue + Red socket in Furious Staves - 20/25 SPen, 10/13 for matching red, 20/25x2 for forgoing bonus, possible 10/13x2.
Even without prismatic gems, this means that any staff + wand can yield 51/61/71 SPen (57/69/81 in 3.2), while a Spellblade + offhand + wand can yield 106 spell penetration (111 in 3.2).
If you're SERIOUSLY concerned with overcoming MotW, pally auras, and other mages, the tool are there as long as you're willing to be a bit modular and buy secondary weapons. The pre-3.2 available Spell Penetration when using a weapon combo above the must can raise your SPen as high as 181, requiring you to additionally gem other gear for. In 3.2, assuming you replace both your base blues with a Dragon's eye, the Blade gem with a dragon's eye, you can get 226 Spell Penetration [35 cloak, 35x3 Dragon's Eye, 31 Wand, 55 off-hand] before other gems. I would not say it's practical to try for this, but if you're a PvP heavy/only truely obsessive EJ, it's possible to use a base set that flys most of the time without losing too much and then having a weapon/wand set to jack up your Spell Pen based on expected resists. Frankly, I'm not THAT worried about facing a full arcane mage with MotW and a paladin anytime soon. Although the theoretical 194/280 SR based on aura is kind of obscene.
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Does anybody have some good advice for countering a warrior's spell reflect as a mage.
I have a buff proc on the target that tells me when it's up, but that does stop the warrior casting it just before my sheep goes off or just at the very end of a spell. It seems anything with a cast time as a caster is prone to getting reflected back if the warrior has good timing. I have had some success with faking a spell when I know SR is off CD on the warrior, but that doesn't always work and I don't have a mod that tracks the CD of it on the target (not too sure you can even do that).
I pvp as fire (by choice, I like the challenge), but I have to think this is a problem for shatter combo mages when the warrior isn't already sheeped?
Any long time cast will be prone to spellreflect and if the warrior has a good connection he can cast it after you released the spell. If he does not you can use a low rank icelance or something else to remove it.
Afflicted 3 can track the duration of spell reflect and its cooldown, might be something you want to use.
Interesting, so the spell reflect ability is calculated on impact, not on cast? So I could technically also cast a 2.7 sec spell with say 3 secs left on SR on the warrior, and the cast and travel time of the spell would mean it would hit after SR has fallen off and therefore not get reflected back?
I was wondering if the frost savage gear is decent enough to even wana make to start pvping when 80 in??. or should i just stick with regular gear and then grind out the honor for arena gear?
Interesting, so the spell reflect ability is calculated on impact, not on cast? So I could technically also cast a 2.7 sec spell with say 3 secs left on SR on the warrior, and the cast and travel time of the spell would mean it would hit after SR has fallen off and therefore not get reflected back?
I will try out Afflicted, thanks.
Yes, the moment of impact is what counts but adding to this I must be honest and say I've never been in a position to time spells that way and eventhough I am reasonably sure it should work, its not 100%. Maybe someone else knows this for a fact?
Originally Posted by Cory_1987
I was wondering if the frost savage gear is decent enough to even wana make to start pvping when 80 in??. or should i just stick with regular gear and then grind out the honor for arena gear?
300 Resilience is hardly noticable (500 is about the turning point) and 527 Spellpower will hardly make a dent in your oponent so it would be better to use your current pve gear, if its better then the frostsavage gear ofcourse, and grind the honor needed for pvp gear if your planning on starting straight away.
Spell reflect has to be used before the spell leaves the hands of the caster in order to work. If you use spell reflect while the spell is travelling in the air it will not get reflected. In addition, latency means that sometimes that is not enough and this is why you can often get polymorphed or cycloned with the spell reflect buff active even though the spells have no travelling time.
Looking at it from the other direction, if the warrior uses spell reflect late enough, your game client will not realize he has the buff before it's too late to interrupt the spell. However, there's no easy way for him to time this, so it's mostly guessing/luck. Trying to simply frost nova->shatter a warrior is likely to fail unless you know he has Spell Reflect on cooldown. It's usually best to make sure he's stunned by a deep freeze or kidney shot before you do it unless you can make him waste his spell reflect and then shatter him before it comes up.
This is not mage specific but I'm not sure where else to post this. I was primarily PvE for the longest time but when I decided to switch to mostly PvP, I went from 3 years of WASD with most of my bindings on my number pad to using my mouse with most of my bindings surrounding E and D which I'm using for forward and backward. I certainly don't doubt the benefit of this (as everything I've read on here suggests that's the way to go) but I'm having a hard time adjusting. Is it just me or is there a steep learning curve involved with the change?
Any tips not already listed on this thread (I've read it repeatedly) are also welcome. I jumped on a 2v2 team last night with a hunter and it went...poorly.
Edit: I was also wondering about what I'm reading regarding gear choices. Nobody seems to think the decrease in cast time to poly for the 4 piece gladiator bonus is worth it. Is that always the case? I can't count the number of times that it seemed 0.15 seconds would have made a difference.
Is it just me or is there a steep learning curve involved with the change?
It's like learning how to type. When you stop hunting and pecking and are learning to type you slow way down...but after a brief ramp up period you're WAY faster and wonder how you ever did without it.
Any tips not already listed on this thread (I've read it repeatedly) are also welcome. I jumped on a 2v2 team last night with a hunter and it went...poorly.
Edit: I was also wondering about what I'm reading regarding gear choices. Nobody seems to think the decrease in cast time to poly for the 4 piece gladiator bonus is worth it. Is that always the case? I can't count the number of times that it seemed 0.15 seconds would have made a difference.
One thing you may find helpful is to hide all your action bars and do a few battlegrounds. This is a kind of crash course in what abilities you will use the most and the ease with which you can reach the buttons you have them bound to. Give it a few days and you will see results.
One reason that there are many mages who wear two to three pieces of gladiator tier gear and two pieces of tier 7.5 is because of the tier 7.5 two piece bonus. The 40% extra mana from the gem, as well as the 225 spell power buff are very helpful when you are trying to kill quickly. The benefits of the resilience on the two missing gladiator pieces are negligible on live given that mages will be killed quickly resilience or not if you have no cool downs available. For patch 3.2 this may be different since resilience will affect the percentage of all damage taken, rather than your chance to be critically struck and the damage a critical strike inflicts.
The haste you gain from the Frostfire pieces is nice to have as well.
3.2 should be interesting with that in mind...I just read the following on the mage forums regarding the PTR and 3.2
"Empowered Frostbolt has the 2/4% crit changed to 0.1/0.2s cast time reduction. Good change, but not enough for PvE DPS viability yet."
Not enough for PvE viability maybe (I saw no numbers backing this up one way or the other), but it will be interesting to see if that plus the change to resilience has more people leaning towards full gladiator gear since they won't necessarily need the extra haste. That's of course assuming there aren't any last minute changes.
I saw the discussion about using fire in pvp, and I figured I’d comment. I have pvped fire since I started playing (near the end of BC) and have always been fire aside from testing out frost and arcane to see what they had.
I think one reason there are so few people who pvp fire, is because everyone always says that you absolutely must pvp as frost (or maybe use arcane now). This also kills the amount of information out there on how to pvp as fire because so few people do it, which in turn further keeps people from really trying fire pvp because they can‘t find help. I sadly can hardly ever find info on pvp fire.
I’ve always loved fire and never been willing to give up on it. I also think I enjoy the challenge of trying to make something work that so many won’t try and say can’t work. But I really think fire, especially now in Wrath, is viable in arena when played right. I’m newer to arena, but I’ve BGed a ton and fought in all kinds of situations and know how to work fire for most situations.
It’s hard to find a good place to start, but I guess I'll describe my current spec and tactics.
Here is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
And my current pvp spec (19/52/0): The World of Warcraft Armory
Glyphs: Major - Evocate, Imp Scorch, Polymorph | Minor - Frost Ward, Fire Ward, Slow Fall
Arcane tree selection is pretty simple so I will start there. From what I read, I can’t believe what little emphasis was given to the importance of imp CS. This is the sole reason I go into arcane. Its primary use is to help finish off a healer. Those 4 seconds of silence, or 8 if you get them during a cast, are generally all that is needed to finish the kill. Also very nice against a caster dps. The other talents are picked because they are the most useful way to spend the points required to get to imp CS. In short, more armor is nice, more spell resist is nice, dampen magic is always on, and Spell Impact is a no brainer. The 2 points in arcane shielding are there because as a fire mage, I need to have mana shield up almost constantly, but I'm no good alive if I'm OOM.
The fire tree is obviously more in depth, but I'm trying to be as concise as possible, so I'll leave most of my fire choices up for questions if you don't understand them after I describe my fighting style. Real quick, a few of the ones I feel aren't such obvious choices, have already been debated on here, or I didn't pick: Blazing Speed doesn't work half the time (much like Blink), but it can be a life saver if it actually works; Fiery Payback is ABSOLUTELY worth it for the damage reduction below 35% health alone. I never try to or get to use the pyroblast aspect; Spell reflects (from Molten Shields) after using a Ward are nice (especially reflecting a reflected fire spell back at a prot warrior); Didn't use Firestarter because I don't like Flamestrike, but after reading some comments on here (and other sources), I'm considering picking it up; Burning Determination is worthless; I don't cast non-instants unless I'm safe so Burning Soul is pointless.
I think I saw some questioning about Living Bomb, but it is a must for pvp fire. The explosion is a guaranteed Hot Streak proc 75% of the time I'd say, and putting it on a rogue/druid to help prevent restealthing is great.
As for my fighting style, I use instant casts about 85% of the time. I never want to stop moving and I rarely want to sit and cast anything. Let's say I am essentially going heads up with someone, I will start with Living Bomb, or if they are close already I will either Dragon's Breath or Nova > run > sheep > pyro > LB. If they are range/caster, I will get close as much as possible. Open with DB, cast scorch, fire blast, then whatever instants make sense. Frost Nova then Ice Lances. Cone of Cold when they get loose. Blast Wave if they attempt to cast. Then silence and another scorch. Fire Blast whenever it is up. By then DB is back up and I can reset my attack. If I really need to nuke them, I can pop Combustion and Mirror Images. Obviously casting Pryoblast whenever Hot Streak procs.
For melee, it is usually easier. Rogues are still a nightmare for me (I'm getting better), but Warriors are a treat. I love Warriors. Ret Palis can be bad due to their unreal bursts, but usually you just kite them and they are cake. Feral druids are usually a joke. I can usually spend a little more time casting when it is against melee.
As far as mages go, it depends on the mage for sure. I can take about half of the frost mages and arcane mages I face. Against a frost mage, I just spellsteal Ice Barrier, reflect some of the frost spells, and blink out of freezes. Arcane mages are hard soley for the fact that they have Slow. If an arcane mage can use slow then LOS me, it's really hard, but in open terrain it is pretty easy. I pretty much only cast instants so the slowing effect on cast time doesn't bother me too much. As for fire mages, I've never met a fire mage I didn't beat.
I never cast fireball ever, FFB once in a blue moon. Scorch is pretty much the only non-instant damage spell I cast so that makes up about 10-15% of my attack.
My 2v2 team is Mage/Rogue. My 3v3 team is RPM. The rogue and I do well together and usually only lose because we make a mistake or because we don't have the right strat yet. We are both new to arena so knowledge of arena is our current downfall. We go about 50/50 W/L or a little better currently. The RPM team is really new so we are just getting started on how we are supposed to play in arena. We go about 50/50 with that team too.
Gear wise, I stack crit. All the crit I can get. I'm at about 31% crit rating with AI on and have started using Ice Armor instead of Molten Armor since I can spare the crit loss and the slowing effect on melee and frost resistance is nice. I'm thinking I need to just pick it on a game by game basis, but I'm still learning the art of scoping out your opponent in those first few seconds. The crit resistance of Molten Armor is equivalent to about 411 resilience, so I'm still testing which armor provides the most benefit.
I saw talk of set bonuses and the 4 pc set bonus of pvp gear. For a fire mage who doesn't stack haste, the 1.5 sec reduction on sheep time is pretty helpful.
And for the record, I know of at least one fire mage who has gotten above a 2350 rating using a similar spec and similar gear, so it IS possible.
As someone else put it, sorry about the novel haha. I'm pretty passionate about pvp fire.
I think one reason there are so few people who pvp fire, is because everyone always says that you absolutely must pvp as frost (or maybe use arcane now). This also kills the amount of information out there on how to pvp as fire because so few people do it, which in turn further keeps people from really trying fire pvp because they can‘t find help. I sadly can hardly ever find info on pvp fire
This and most of the other things you are saying is nice and fine, but: I doubt that few people use Deep Fire Specs in PvP just because "everyone" says Ice is a must. Of course there are also capable Firemages with high ratings around, but the reason they are fewer has alreay been discussed: Fire does depend too much on RNG and has too few reliable defense-mechanisms. Mana-efficiency is a pain in the ass and you have to rely too much on procs to survive against opponents who know what they are doing. You have less CC, you can't peel as good as an Ice-Mage, your damage doesn't exceed an ice-mages enough to balance the scales.
Fire got stronger and much more mobile with the newer changes, yes. Of course threads about player vs. player-situations always tend at least a bit towards the anecdotical and of course a good Firemage isn't helpless or useless, but as a general description of the situation I guess we still can say that Ice is more beneficial in Arena-PvP.
EDIT: Yes, I would advise every pvp-mage to build firestarter into his or her spec - like you said, we rely heavily on instants, and with that Skill you get one with every Blastwave or DragonsBreath, thats powerful.
Last edited by Fetzen : 08/02/09 at 6:19 AM.
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This and most of the other things you are saying is nice and fine, but: I doubt that few people use Deep Fire Specs in PvP just because "everyone" says Ice is a must. Of course there are also capable Firemages with high ratings around, but the reason they are fewer has alreay been discussed: Fire does depend too much on RNG and has too few reliable defense-mechanisms. Mana-efficiency is a pain in the ass and you have to rely too much on procs to survive against opponents who know what they are doing. You have less CC, you can't peel as good as an Ice-Mage, your damage doesn't exceed an ice-mages enough to balance the scales.
Fire got stronger and much more mobile with the newer changes, yes. Of course threads about player vs. player-situations always tend at least a bit towards the anecdotical and of course a good Firemage isn't helpless or useless, but as a general description of the situation I guess we still can say that Ice is more beneficial in Arena-PvP.
EDIT: Yes, I would advise every pvp-mage to build firestarter into his or her spec - like you said, we rely heavily on instants, and with that Skill you get one with every Blastwave or DragonsBreath, thats powerful.
I disagree, I think that the number of Fire mages is at least hurt to some extent, maybe not the sole reason for their rarity, because people say go Frost all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked why I wasn't Frost. It's unreal. Someone with less conviction probably would break at some point.
But I agree, I'm sure part of the reason is because Frost seems better.
However, I'm not sure I agree with all your assessments. In my experience, if the RNG is generous, we simply win fast. However if the RNG is harsh, we still win matches that we "should" win at this point. So I don't think RNG is that big of a deal. Also, when you gear right and have 35-40% crit chance, the RNG can't be too harsh, even if it wants to .
I only run out of mana if it is a long, long fight, or I make a mistake.
I also think I disagree about CC and Peeling. A flow chart would be nice right about now... haha. Frost has Deep Freeze, I have Dragon's Breath. His is reliant on the target being frozen or Fingers of Frost. I can just run in blow Dragon's Breath whenever, and if there are more than one opponent in the area, I can get both of them. His cooldown is also 30secs while mine is 20 (I'm unaware if there is something to lower CD for DF besides Cold Snap). If I need to slow a target down, I have CoC or Blast Wave. I can also interrupt casting with Blast Wave. I also get Impact but that really isn't that good since I use Fire Blast whenever it is up and only actually use it for the Impact every once in a while. And of course, if the target is melee and on me, I can always keep Ice Armor up.
I will agree tho, I see how Frost is more beneficial in arena, simply because it can stay alive longer. I wish I had Cold Snap. So much.
Re:EDIT - Yea I was looking for a place to spare 2 points. Not sure from where tho. It's a tough decision.
I think you are really underestimating the people who are considered the "top" PvPers in the world. If Fire gave them any sort of advantage over Frost, enough would go Fire. Personally, I find Fire fun, and when I'm on my Mage I used to really love BGs with a fire/arcane spec. That being said, for Arena's there is a reason people play Frost.
I think you are really underestimating the people who are considered the "top" PvPers in the world. If Fire gave them any sort of advantage over Frost, enough would go Fire. Personally, I find Fire fun, and when I'm on my Mage I used to really love BGs with a fire/arcane spec. That being said, for Arena's there is a reason people play Frost.
Heh yea. I might not have made my self clear on where I'm coming from. I don't know a whole lot about what top arena people do, I was more so speaking about the masses. I think that Fire can be done in arena, and the masses don't play it as much for the reasons I spoke. Of course, if less of the newer players or lower down players don't play it, they aren't going to develop their skill, but it certainly may not be seen as sufficient for the premier teams. However, if someone can reach a 2350 rating using Fire, which is a rating I'd be more than happy with, I think it is still way more viable than people give it credit for.
I've been doing BGs like it's my job to get geared up for my first shot at arena while doing about 10 skirmishes whenever I log on to get some practice. In BGs I seem to be able to hold my own 1v1 against almost any class, so I'm fairly confident as far as that goes but in the several skirmishes I've lost (2v2) I feel like I've never PvP'd before. The biggest issue I've noticed is my partner (assuming dps) attacking the target I'm trying to poly. Or attacking a druid's partner leaving me unable to poly because they're usually in one of three forms that can't be poly'd.
Is this just due to the lack of communication associated with a pug situation (like in a BG when everyone runs around doing their own thing) or am I expected to know exactly what to do every time considering different comps and partners?
Mhwell, I must state that I'm just a dabbler in arena - with my Enhancer I'm at least "serious" enough to reach 1450 (which is still not a big shot, I'm very fucking aware) and as a Mage I just team up every few weeks with a hunter who's a good friend. So I'd be interested in what more experienced players say, but my opinion: You should try to etablish some minor rules like "if theres a Paladin, lets force him to use his bubble fast" or "if there's a Druid, always go for the Druid". That won't help you far, but at least make things a bit easier in the beginning.
It's not 'lack of communication' of course. Every good team, anywhere in life, needs practice and routine. You aren't telepaths, right?
So it gets down to routine and working on your teamplay, that evolves after some time if you both are decent players and moderately intelligent human beings. I guess it also depends a whole lot on your setup. As an enhancer I have about 900 resilence and I am always the bait, because my partner plays a rogue. I stand there, they try to rape me with all force, he bursts one of them down as fast as he can. And most of the time they think I'm a healer until it's too late.
With the mage ... well I'm a firemage and we dont play often enough, which places us on the "victim"-side most of the time. We mostly try bursting the non-healer down, so my hunter-pal knows I'll try to sheep the healer. That clever strategy of course is fucked up instantly when you face a priest/paladin-combo or something like that.
You could also use a simple macro to target his target, so you always burst the right guy down.
"These psychouts are mostly media inspired."
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06/22/09, 2:35 PM
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