[Mage] The PVP Thread - Page 7

amoondre · 09/24/07, 10:26 AM

First off this is a great thread, and I have read a ton of things that I did not know before. So I am leveling my mage (currently 67) and I'm not looking to PVE much at all, but I do plan on doing a lot of arena. My 3v3 combo will be a warlock, rogue and myself. I see that a lot of you are fans of a build like this,
(0/8/53 link below)
Would you guys suggest this build to someone who is not very sure of the build I want? I was really looking for a build that was not a "Ohh the mage blew his load now hes not a big deal" type build. I want survivability and the potential to make or break the games. Any suggestions?

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

Leto · 09/24/07, 10:48 AM

I would recommend a 17/0/44 build if you're new to 70, as the defensive abilities of a 0/5/56 variant have less benefit the less resilience you have. Also, having improved counterspell will give you more breathing room with your interrupts until you've gotten good at timing them.

amoondre · 09/24/07, 11:03 AM

You know what, I was actually really depressed that I didn't have imp counter spell, thats a pretty good idea. Thanks for the input.

Borland · 09/24/07, 11:38 AM

Imp counterspell is good against mages and druids.
Rest - paladins/locks/shamans/priests - its better to counter a heal/fear/drainlife.
But yes, its way better to have it improved until you learn how to.

In arenas i do this - i set up /focus on a healer.
And every time he starts healing a big giant bar pops way over the top of my char - i just roll the mouse wheel.
Both wheelup/wheel down are bound to a macro :

/stopcasting
/cast [target=focus,exists] Counterspell

So i can counterspell the focus while dpsing without switching targets.
A note - watch when pala bubles - or you can end up using counterspell just to see *imune* over his head.
Shamans - watch for grounding totem. You dont realy need a special macro to target the totem - just hit with lance anyone thats not cced atm

PS : counterspell when the heal is in 1s cast time already , often ppl fake heals knowing you are waiting for them.
sometimes i even pass the fast heals , pala heals for 600-700 with 1.5s cast and thinks - no one watching me , time for 2.5s cast heal and then .. bam

amoondre · 09/24/07, 11:51 AM

Waiting for the BIG heals is a smart idea, when I use to PVP at 60 it was always a pain to CS something useless. Another question, when using spell steal, can you steal a pally bubble? I've herd mixed things about this and was just wondering about it. Also do you use spell steal offensively? If you do, who do you target most, and what do you usually end up stealing?

Tower · 09/24/07, 1:00 PM

You can Spellsteal Blessing of Protection, not their Divine Intervention though.

Spellsteal is VERY mana intensive, so unless you see a player put a buff up and you know if you cast Spellsteal you'll be snagging it, it's kinda not worth it in my opinion.

Spellstealing Lifebloom is a must, and in BGs can help you stay up a long time (it can crit based on your spell crit). You can spellsteal Fel Armor off of warlocks, for a badarse +100dmg 2 minute buff.

I'm sure there's a better spellsteal summary around these boards or the WoW forums though.

Zure · 09/24/07, 2:21 PM

Completely agreed with Tower.

Earthshield, BoFreedom, and BoP are the most commonly stolen buffs, since a) it is quite common for shaman/paladins to only have one steal-able buff up at a time and b) these are particularly high impact buffs to purge/gain yourself.

Simply using spellsteal in these cases will net you 90% of the spell's effectiveness with relatively high bang for the mana buck.

amoondre · 09/25/07, 12:20 AM

I'm Sorry but a 17/0/44 spec would look like this?
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

I apologize I tried looking this up, and looking at the mages on this forums profiles, but I couldn't find it.

Borland · 09/25/07, 9:49 AM

Yes you can spellsteal pala buble , but it requires VERY precice timing on a thing that you can't time -
simply because you depend on when pala will use his buble

Enjoy :
WarcraftMovies.com - World of Warcraft Movies

Ozzmar · 09/25/07, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by amoondre

I'm Sorry but a 17/0/44 spec would look like this?
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

I apologize I tried looking this up, and looking at the mages on this forums profiles, but I couldn't find it.

I'd suggest this spec - I use it on my mage:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

3 in the Arcane Blast/Explosion talent isn't much use in Arena, so I went with the extra armor and 2 points in Magic Attunement (great if you don't run with a healer).

In your Frost tree, I'd suggest dropping Permafrost and Cone of Cold in order to max Winter's Chill and Arctic Winds. Ice Lance adds the WC debuff, and an extra 10% chance to crit against people with stacked resilience will really add up!

Hope this helps!

Krellian · 09/25/07, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Borland

Yes you can spellsteal pala buble , but it requires VERY precice timing on a thing that you can't time -
simply because you depend on when pala will use his buble

Enjoy :
WarcraftMovies.com - World of Warcraft Movies

are you referring to the real bubble, or blessing of protection we cast on others? as far as i know the only counter to pally bubble is mass dispel.

Borland · 09/26/07, 8:22 AM

Check the movie again. Yes you can spellsteal buble , but it can happen once in a lifetime.

As for using spellsteal offensivly -

Freedom off warriors - thats only in 2v2 where the only thing the pala can put on the war at one time is blessing of freedom.

shamans earthshield/heroism (tho its better to tell your priest to dispell him as the shaman itself will purge you for far cheaper than you will spellsteal from him)

Druids innervate - hard to do because at this point the druid will surely have few hots + thorns/mark/omen.

Ice barrier/arcane power off mages - thats hard to do because the mage will surely have at least some sort of mage armor on - you have 50% chance to waste 650 mana stealing a mage armor (this way setting your own to a 2 minutes duration) - not a very efficient move.

warlocks fel armour - for what , the felhunter will surely dispell it in the next few seconds.

Priest shield - that would be golden if the priest couldnt dispell , sadly he can so you can either steal stam/spirit/inner fire or you can hit the shield - that will be dispeled asap.

All in all - i see spellsteal as grull's spell couse there is where its used :P
The simple facts that its random and its 650 mana is making it useless.
Only good thing to be used is to spellsteal the pala wings - to look cool

Everything else is cheaper to be dispeled/purged.

Leto · 09/26/07, 10:50 AM

I'm a big fan of spellstealing freedom, particularly when a warrior is on me, as it helps me get away from him while letting him get slowed. I generally ask to have the warrior purged of his buffs before hand so that its clean to steal.

Aett · 09/26/07, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Krellian

are you referring to the real bubble, or blessing of protection we cast on others? as far as i know the only counter to pally bubble is mass dispel.

It works because of lag. Apparently there is a specific instant at which the buff is up, but it won't register as immune.. I have a screenshot of shaman purging my bubble in EotS. It was a sad, sad day.

Bottom line is don't try this at home, it's a waste of mana and people will justifiably make fun of you for it.

Borland · 09/27/07, 9:40 AM

A small hint for arena players - If you see 2 ppl out of 3 in 3v3 and you are sure one stealther/inviser is around but you dont realy know his class - can be rogue/druid/invised mage.
Go alittle forward and put detect magic on some of the other two -
if MOTW is present - the third is druid.
if Arcane Intelect is present - mage
and if theres nothing - thats probably a rogue.

It can always be shadowmelded NE but at the start of the game i spam TAB with increased range so i know anyone that doesnt start in stealth/meld in a second (gladiator plugin catches my selects).
Thus shadow melting at the start area is bad for them and almost never happends.

edit : GMs just stated that detect magic will be removed and everyone could see what the enemy has as buffs. So the above will be still true but we aint gonna need to put detect magic after 2.3

Leto · 09/27/07, 11:10 AM

no detect magic?!? noooo... going to miss poly > detect combo.

Vermis · 09/27/07, 2:37 PM

Just gives a one more reason to spec into chill. Thou I'll miss that even priests werent sure to dispel sheep.

Has anyone done testing with chill. What I mean if you have 2 chills 1 sheep is it possible to dispel chills and leave the poly there?

Tower · 09/27/07, 4:50 PM

With Resilience double-dipping on Fire crits, likely higher Ice Barrier Values with end game gear, Improved Frostbolt being easier to fit in PvP specs, seems like no one will be spec'ing heavy Fire anymore.

Lodi · 09/27/07, 7:08 PM

I'm thinking of an AM spam spec for PVE. There are plenty of free talent points left over (especially if your gear naturally has more than 6% spellhit), so I want to make it decent for PVP as well.

To that end, I'm requesting answers/comment on the following:

Imp CS, prismatic cloak, and the core dps increase talents and uninterruptible/Emp. Arcane Missiles are a given (this is a PVE spec).

Is standing there mashing arcane missiles just asking for a counterspell/kick/pummel? Well, yes. Especially having just spent 700 mana up front.

Since Arcane Blast suffers from damage pushback, I'd imagine points in dampen magic / armor would be better than crit?

Improved Blink or max Arcane Mind?

POM+pyro for 11 points? Ignite should still good even with double-dip dot reduction? Wait for clearcast to POM+pyro for 30% crit chance?

Burning Soul on top of that for a reasonable scorch that doesn't scream "INTERRUPT ME" like AM would?

Fast casting frostbolt snare+coldsnap for 11 points? Frostbite would be a waste of points, right?

5pt fire for impact+molten armor - expensive recast of molten armor if dispelled. Does molten armor impact attacking hunters/casters?

Slow - worth the 1 talent point. 50% more time between autoshots and time to complete casts means 66% casting speed, and mana cost is quite high, and it's dispellable ... but 15 seconds + instant is nice.

61 arcane starts getting silly (imp wand?), unless you think magic absorption is a good talent.

Magic aborption was en vogue when, I believe, e.g. resists to dispelling paly buffs due to paly talents, would trigger mana regen on the mage with the buff. Or is it still useful?

Kulehan · 09/27/07, 10:10 PM

Lodi: Honestly, I don't think a build like that would work well overall. That's basically what I end up with I try to pvp/arena as my raid spec (49/12/0), and it's terrible. AM is funny sometimes, but like you said, it instantly shows your target where you are due to being a bolt spell, it's highly flashy, and just generally grabs attention well, making you very dead, very fast. It generally suffers from the same downfalls as 33/28 in that AP POM Pyro is your big shot, and if you miss it, you're running on fumes for 3 minutes.

The only way I've found arcane to be decently worthwhile is to spam AB, since it's less prominent graphically, and does ridiculous damage very quickly (able to outburst a pally's heals no problem). But again, spell pushback causes this to be difficult unless you have another teammate to provide a distraction and keep yourself free from attackers.

On another note, I was considering a build like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'm doing a lot of BGs, and would like to do a good handful of arenas this weekend (If I can find 2 people to make a team with), so I was trying to find a build that would work well for both. This to me seems like it is similar to the deeper frost builds, but I dropped a couple points out of things that seemed extraneous; Precision, Piercing Ice, in order to drop some extra points in fire to make scorch more viable since frostbolts could be difficult to pull off. Losing Arctic Winds could hurt, but I'm just too tempted to keep ignite as an anti-vanish tactic against rogues. I think the rest of the choices are pretty self-explanatory. Some critique on this would be helpful.

Vermis · 09/28/07, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Tower

With Resilience double-dipping on Fire crits, likely higher Ice Barrier Values with end game gear, Improved Frostbolt being easier to fit in PvP specs, seems like no one will be spec'ing heavy Fire anymore.

The ongoing trend for mages who dont play arenas casually is 30 or more in frost. Fire wasnt ever good spec for arenas, when arenas initially came and resilience wasnt so widely used ap/pom pyro mages were good, now it just isnt enough. Out of all the mages with whom I've played with and who I know, not a single one goes as fire to the arenas.

The lack of survivability as fire may keep you alive game or 2 but eventually opposing teams will know your spec and focus on you. We had few games against ap/pom specced mage and for some reason whole team didnt feel threatened by him. Apply some cc to the mage and the whole dps he can produce goes down fast. Same is for for frost mages except single warrior cannot kill the frost mage alone.

Im more concerned about detect magic in 2.3 than im with ignite and resilience.

Borland · 09/28/07, 5:52 AM

Fire just isnt suited for arenas , you have low survival , esp against hunters/dot classes.
The moment you got 6-7 dots on you - you are dead , no healer can keep up with dots on you and cc on him.

As for the arcane spec with am - it can work , but youll go down with mana pretty fast.
You need to be on top of your game for 2 minutes , and in that time if you didnt kill anything - you just die.

By the way - my priest partner just loves AP speced mages. Dispelling AP is pretty awesome for him for some reason.

Kulehan · 09/28/07, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by Borland

my priest partner just loves AP speced mages. Dispelling AP is pretty awesome for him for some reason.

I was personally very amused the other day when I was in Arathi Basin and saw a mage nearby pop AP, which I quickly spellstole, then started to throw a scorch at him. He spellstole it back, and I spellstole it one last time during the last 3-4 seconds of the duration. Made my day. =)

ReignConfused · 10/01/07, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kulehan

I was personally very amused the other day when I was in Arathi Basin and saw a mage nearby pop AP, which I quickly spellstole, then started to throw a scorch at him. He spellstole it back, and I spellstole it one last time during the last 3-4 seconds of the duration. Made my day. =)

And you blew 1600 mana and he blew 800 all for naught

I was wondering about a raiding/pve spec. I'm tired of respeccing. I've done very well in arena as full fire due to the aoe's and interrupts provided you have 17 in arcane. But that was on a 1700 team and I was wondering how resilience begins to affect it at the higher levels where a crit based build starts to encounter a lot of crit resistance.

As well as arcane, would it be possible to just POM AP Pyro AB spam someone to death? Or are healers not having a problem healing through that, and if anyone HAS tried this are you finding it hard to keep AB debuff up? AM as well, but I'm worried about the mana pool issue with mana burn and as it was said if anyone isn't dead in 2 minutes you are?

Borland · 10/02/07, 4:22 AM

Its not the healers the problem , the moment you pom pom/pyro you automaticly get crowd controlled and
a few seconds later when you are strip naked with purge/dispells you are focus fired.

I tryed pom/pyro - but there is death coils/grounding/fear/intercept/sheep.
You aint going to last more than 2 seconds when you start the flashy AP.