The question is, why haven't i seen this build before. the clear answer must be that it sucks... but why? Am i missing something when i look at the build, it has all the important talents, pom/pyro, shatter + icelance or shatter + pom/pyro, improved CS, and Iceblock.
I guess i'm wondering if anyone has tried this build and can comment on its effectiveness.
The question is, why haven't i seen this build before. the clear answer must be that it sucks... but why? Am i missing something when i look at the build, it has all the important talents, pom/pyro, shatter + icelance or shatter + pom/pyro, improved CS, and Iceblock.
I guess i'm wondering if anyone has tried this build and can comment on its effectiveness.
Frost spells don't hit as hard as they could. No AP for the PoM pyro.
Because half of the time you are not sure what spell to use
You lack some of the key survivability on frost - water elemental/arctic winds/ice barrier.
You lack any of the crit/dmg improvements of fire.
You lack arcane power/arcane potency/Spell power - key talents to do dmg with arcane.
All you have is one insta pom pyro with shatter - and it wont hit hard enough trust me.
Ive played a few specs aswell but against high resilience targets Water elemental is the way to go. pet bolt > pet nova > frostbolt > icelance > fireblast > coc is enough damage to get most classes < 50%. Even though my water elemental gets killed alot 1 nova is all you need.
The question is, why haven't i seen this build before. the clear answer must be that it sucks... but why? Am i missing something when i look at the build, it has all the important talents, pom/pyro, shatter + icelance or shatter + pom/pyro, improved CS, and Iceblock.
I guess i'm wondering if anyone has tried this build and can comment on its effectiveness.
Apart from what was mentioned earlier, not having arctic reach is going to bite you in the ass, literally.
Honestly, what's the point of anything but deep frost for PvP, particularly with the 2.3 changes? I'd say the only other viable spec that has utility over WE is PoM/Pyro, and even that is really debatable.
Why go elemental when you get more damage and survivability from frost? More burst, even. POM Pyro is going to be pretty weak versus WE Bolt + + WE Freeze + Untaxed Imp Frostbolt + Icelance. Which you can do 4 times in 1.5m versus once every 3m.
Not to mention frost mages are dam near invincible against rogues. The controlability (? :P) of a frost mage is so great that it's really the only spec that makes any sense. The survivability is far greater than that of a fire mage and we all know that that's what arena is about. A dead mage isn't very useful.
Not to mention frost mages are dam near invincible against rogues. The controlability (? :P) of a frost mage is so great that it's really the only spec that makes any sense. The survivability is far greater than that of a fire mage and we all know that that's what arena is about. A dead mage isn't very useful.
I dunno, a good rogue can give me a bit of trouble.
Frost is definitely superior to pom pyro though. Pom requires too much luck (crit) and timing. If you screw up and pyro a totem or bubbled pally, game over.
Rogues wont give that much of a trouble after they nerf the deadly throw to not be affected by ruthlessness - i.e. rogues wont be able to spam it anymore.
Tower is completely right btw , pom pyro is better burst ONLY if both pyro+fireblast crit.
Otherwise frost has realy scary burst - elemental + start bolt + pet nova + spaming lance - like 6k almost sure crits - after all you got 50% crit chance from shatter. Only way to avoid that is timed blessing of freedom or ressisted nova.
And even after that you have ~800 dmg every 2.5s from the elemental , if thats prevented - he gets killed/cc - remember - enemy is using cc on the ele instead of you
Rogues wont give that much of a trouble after they nerf the deadly throw to not be affected by ruthlessness - i.e. rogues wont be able to spam it anymore.
While it was nice when it happened, that big whopping 60% chance for an free combo point was hardly something Rogues counted on. Now, it's definitely a lot more likely than a Triple Windfury Crit or something, but this belief that Rogues could just spam deadly throw is ridiculous. That's a bit like me saying that Frost Mages suck because Shatter makes them crit every time.
But to the point at hand, as a Rogue I would love it if more mages went POM Pyro, even after the Deadly Throw change, so I'd take that as an indication that sticking with Frost if probably the way to go.
First off, I would just like to say that I am a new poster but have followed this forum for quite some time now and have taken in a vast amount of knowledge from it. The reason I felt compelled to post however, is why so many mages are going 17/0/44. I myself was that spec for quite sometime and although I liked it, I felt it wasn't really worth 17 points just for an imp cs. So I respeced 0/8/53 and am loving it. The Armory
With molton armor on and imp fireblast it seems as if impact is procing constantly and I seem to be hitting harder now that I have arctic winds. I realize of course that vs druids catching them in any kind of heal is damn near impossible but since I have counterspell my focus target macroed I really don't have that much trouble shutting down a priest even in a flash heal. I don't know perhaps its just me, and I realize I still have a lot to learn(hence why I want your guy's input) but I think that if your not catching the healer in the heal, your probably already having problems.
While it was nice when it happened, that big whopping 60% chance for an free combo point was hardly something Rogues counted on. Now, it's definitely a lot more likely than a Triple Windfury Crit or something, but this belief that Rogues could just spam deadly throw is ridiculous. That's a bit like me saying that Frost Mages suck because Shatter makes them crit every time.
But to the point at hand, as a Rogue I would love it if more mages went POM Pyro, even after the Deadly Throw change, so I'd take that as an indication that sticking with Frost if probably the way to go.
To compare shatter with deadly throw is pointless. Shatter is dmg oriented 1-2 times every 21s if you dont have elemental out and 2-4 times every 21s if you have.
Deadly throw however is a ranged snare with interrupt effect that does 200-500dmg.
Thats like if shamans had 400 dmg skill that gets earthshock+frostshock effects with no cooldown.
And thats given to a class that only idea is to keep you in melee range to stun/dps you.
Well if you want to compare a Frost Mage ability versus Deadly Throw spam, how bout the fact you can reliably snare any class with a Improved Rank 1 Frosbolt for only what, a 1s cast and 40 mana? Sure, it doesn't interupt casting but it performs the same task Deadly Throw does for a melee classes; melee closes ranged when being kited, mages open range when being meleed.
As both a mage and rogue pvper, downranking like that really needs to be examined, same goes with Rank 1 shocks etc etc.
Well if you want to compare a Frost Mage ability versus Deadly Throw spam, how bout the fact you can reliably snare any class with a Improved Rank 1 Frosbolt for only what, a 1s cast and 40 mana? Sure, it doesn't interupt casting but it performs the same task Deadly Throw does for a melee classes; melee closes ranged when being kited, mages open range when being meleed.
As both a mage and rogue pvper, downranking like that really needs to be examined, same goes with Rank 1 shocks etc etc.
Well the simple problem is - there is few variants :
1. Rogue is on you - you sure will snare him , but he will move faster than you - crippling > rank 1 frostbolt/frozen armour.
2. You blinked off the rogue stuns -Rogue is running towards you with sprint and good luck casting anything vs deadly throw. You can of course use trink after blink but there is always deadly throw to get you back in tracks.
And unlike ice block - the CoS allows you to dps us.
You can argue of course that the big amount of controll the ice mage has is overwhelming.
Well you are the melee controll class - you have plethora of stuns and slows. And lets not get into dual mace spec.
Simply - i am glad DT is getting nerfed from its spamable version to just another card in the sleeve.
Borland, you completely missed the point. My point was that DT simply cannot be "spammed" as so many casters claim. Could we proc a free combo point three times in a row? Sure, just like a Frost Mage can get a double Frostbolt + Ice Lance crit while I'm Frost Nova'd. People tend to remember when it happens to them simply because that is human nature, you clearly are forgetting about all the times it doesn't happen, which massively out number the times it does.
They're changing DT, and frankly I don't really care because it does make a little bit of sense. Getting Ruthlessness to proc was nice, but as I said, Rogues didn't count on it because frankly, we can't otherwise we'd be dead.
Also, a Frost Mage complaining about a Rogue? Come on now, I have a Mage as well as a Rogue, and Rogues are cake.
I am not complaining about rogues in general man , rogues are fine.
Few can kill me , few cant. If it comes down to using perfect pvp build and gears i would say its 50/50.
Rogue using all cooldowns and WE pet no longer chasing stealthers - he has his wins , i will have mine.
And triple proc isnt the point of discussion , i am talking about the double one , that happends 60% of the time.(+15% if you are wearing netherblade set ) .
We use cooldowns to get away off you - blink/nova/trink/block and run off your melee thats death for us.
Then you slow us again - okey , your tricks against our tricks.
But after we use another cooldown you have ... omg another deadly throw ready. And if you didnt close to us somehow - hey you still have a chance for a third.
Sheep is impossible if you have even 1 combo point.
You are forgeting that two deadly throws are equal to two ranged slows + two ranged interrupts ... given to a class thats specialised in melee stun/interrupt.
In the end , well see how it will end with that 'nerf' , or i would say balance.
I am not complaining about rogues in general man , rogues are fine.
Few can kill me , few cant. If it comes down to using perfect pvp build and gears i would say its 50/50.
Rogue using all cooldowns and WE pet no longer chasing stealthers - he has his wins , i will have mine.
And triple proc isnt the point of discussion , i am talking about the double one , that happends 60% of the time.(+15% if you are wearing netherblade set ) .
We use cooldowns to get away off you - blink/nova/trink/block and run off your melee thats death for us.
Then you slow us again - okey , your tricks against our tricks.
But after we use another cooldown you have ... omg another deadly throw ready. And if you didnt close to us somehow - hey you still have a chance for a third.
Sheep is impossible if you have even 1 combo point.
You are forgeting that two deadly throws are equal to two ranged slows + two ranged interrupts ... given to a class thats specialised in melee stun/interrupt.
In the end , well see how it will end with that 'nerf' , or i would say balance.
Not sure why you're asking for skill balanced based on rogues wearing 2 piece tier 4... in arena?
I wasn't trying to turn this into a Deadly Throw discussion, but in high end arena no matter what class you're fighting against mage have very little time to be casting Frostbolt or Poly. It's a game of instants and creating opportunities to cast. If you've just blinked away from a rogue who has opened on you, you need to understand a deadly throw is imminent, so is a sprint and clos to your incoming Rank 1 Frostbolt and Nova. But once, you survive those, you can kill any rogue or warrior merely using instants. Like the other poster has said, Deadly Throw wasn't spammable, it was an initial 60% chance, then 36% chance you'd get to use it twice in a row, then 21% etc.
Now, after the change we still get to use it once, cleaning our Combo Point platter. Pre-change the likelihood of you being locked down by a second Deadly Throw was 36%, if you've lost battles to that you may want to rethink your class choice in arenas and battlegrounds.
I still stand by the arguments of clearly broken mechanics. Endlessly kiting a class with Rank 1 Frosbolt, which is like 40 mana, has a around a 1s casttime with Improved Frostbolt and can proc Frostbite, is more devastating than spammable Deadly Throw ever was. Mages like Radikal have commented on this on their arena blogs as parts of balancing discussion.
Here's Radikal on that subject.
Frost Snares - All frost snares are on self diminishing returns. After 3 frostbolts, you are immune to the frostbolt snare for 15 seconds, same for CoC. (obviously not Blizzard) This would probably make almost no difference balance wise, but it feels stupid that I can grief people forever with rank 1 fbolt and depending on their class and current cooldown status, they can never escape or fight back.
Its 1s cast , its not insta. Your poisons doesnt share diminishing returns either. You can reapply them with instahit shiv anytime you close up.
Frostbite has diminishing returns in pvp.
As for the frostbolt/poly - Papashlapa (one of the 2500+ ranked mages in 5v5 said :
Yes, keeping a sheep down is more important than Frostbolting. However, this doesn't mean if you sheep someone, start casting a bolt, it's 1.5s in and they get dispelled, you should cancel your bolt and resheep. Let the bolt finish, the sheep can wait the 1 second. Hell, a lot of the time you don't even need to bother keeping a sheep down. It's all about assessing the situation and reacting to it accordingly. There are no hard and fast rules about this. Sometimes you DO need to spam CC, but other times you can ignore it spam damage.
If the deadly throw is on 60-36-20% chance to happen 3 times in a row...
Well frostbolt has 15% chance to proc frostbite on all frostbolt casts.
Simple fact is - deadly throw synergy with ruthlessness is getting fixed. Frost snare doesnt.
Because you already have many ways to get away from our snares - 2x sprint , 2x vanish , trink , cos.
(preparation is very very often seen in arenas). And if you are gnome - escape artist on instacast.
Giving the rogues ranged snare was much , giving them ranged snare that interrupts casting was alot.
But ranged snare that does 300-500 dmg with interrupt cast and chance to use it few times while running towards enemy - that was too much.
I wanted to make a discussion about Amplify magic.
I recently speced into talent that improves dampen/amplify - in order to play lock+mage 2v2.
But i tryed priest+mage combo too and it seems amplify itself does realy big differance to survivability of my priest partner and the team in general.
+360 healing is making his flash heals hit for 2k non crit. (with 1k +healing gladiator gear)
Its 1s cast , its not insta. Your poisons doesnt share diminishing returns either. You can reapply them with instahit shiv anytime you close up.
Frostbite has diminishing returns in pvp.
As for the frostbolt/poly - Papashlapa (one of the 2500+ ranked mages in 5v5 said :
If the deadly throw is on 60-36-20% chance to happen 3 times in a row...
Well frostbolt has 15% chance to proc frostbite on all frostbolt casts.
Simple fact is - deadly throw synergy with ruthlessness is getting fixed. Frost snare doesnt.
Because you already have many ways to get away from our snares - 2x sprint , 2x vanish , trink , cos.
(preparation is very very often seen in arenas). And if you are gnome - escape artist on instacast.
Giving the rogues ranged snare was much , giving them ranged snare that interrupts casting was alot.
But ranged snare that does 300-500 dmg with interrupt cast and chance to use it few times while running towards enemy - that was too much.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here but you're wrong all over the place. Using deadly throw requires combo points (which requires melee range and energy), my comparison to using rank 1 frostbolts was to show how a melee class (rogue) had an UNLUCKY (60-36-20->) chance to lock down a caster class at range (mage) while a caster class utilizing Rank 1 Frostbolts has a VERY HIGH chance of locking down a melee class. A melee class can use a skill to close that range, just like a mage can use a skill to increase that range.
And you're right, it is a simple fact that it's getting fixed, but that doesn't make your argument any less invalid. And prep common in arenas? No, you're wrong. Maybe in the 1700 bracket on Euro servers, but it sure isn't in the US, (and actually the armory scrapers show prep to be pretty UNCOMMON on all servers. Sprint by itself does not allow for snare breaks, Improved Sprint does.
I play both a rogue and mage in 2k+ teams, I don't want to see either of them nerfed, trust me. But the more classes you play easier it is to weed out those mechanics which seem to be a little on the cheese side. GEtting 3-4 Deadly Throw/Ruthlessness procs was definitely one of them, it never happened when you really needed it to, that's how luck works in a roll based system. As a mage I find it even more ridiculous that I can use Rank 1 Frostbolt and Rank 1 Cone of Cold to decimate melee classes, instantly, with minute mana cost.
I wanted to make a discussion about Amplify magic.
I recently speced into talent that improves dampen/amplify - in order to play lock+mage 2v2.
But i tryed priest+mage combo too and it seems amplify itself does realy big differance to survivability of my priest partner and the team in general.
+360 healing is making his flash heals hit for 2k non crit. (with 1k +healing gladiator gear)
It's definitely a highly underused talent (as well as max rank Dampen), especially in 2s. If you're not rushing and they have no magic damage there's no reason to not buff you and your partner with this for extra healing. Same applies to 3's and 5's if it's warrior/2 healer or double warrior/3 healer.
If you've kept up with the Mage - How Can Arcane Damage Work thread in the class mechanics forum, you will know that the 2.2 version of MSD has shaken up high-end PvE raiding regarding arcane missiles and it's interaction with the aforementioned metagem, and the synergies between the two and gear like the lightning capacitor and the ashtongue trinket (among other proc based gear). Essentially the new MSD yields a ~26% chance for one AM cast to proc MSD. the explosive amount of missiles/second, combined with the arcane tree's natural affinities for critical strikes, winds up giving TLC something like a 118dps value compared to a naked trinket slot.
This development got me thinking about mage burst damage in PvP. Assuming nothing more than access to a TLC and a helm with a metagem slot to hold an MSD, could there be an ArcFrost spec that is a net gain in terms of burst damage while not sacrificing an unacceptable amount of survivability?
The idea would be that you polymorph and CS early and often, as any spell at all can proc the Focus buff. If CS is on cooldown, or the situation is not right for CC, use nova/lance or frostbolt. Whenever a clearcast or focus proc's, find the main assist target and AM them.
Although I just thought this up this morning while waiting for an exam (so I haven't been able to play with it in-game), some of the possible arguments in favor of (or at least not against) this spec seem to be:
You dont lose imp CS compared to 17/0/44
A burst damage strategy that is possibly comparable (maybe better) than pvpfrost
An uninteruptable nuke, without having to equip t4
Synergies between the trees (shatter, frostbite, spellpower)
A larger mana pool (at least in absolute terms, possibly not in effective terms)
As I said, this is entirely untested, so I don't even know about some of the talent choices. For instance, I dont know if the PoM to AP chain is worth is, as opposed to 5/5 Mind Mastery, or even something like Imp Damp/Amp + Arc Fort + Pris Cloak. But I figured I might as well bring it up for debate.
If you have any knee-jerk doubts about whether anything could be better than an established build for PvP, please go jump in a raid and see how you feel after chaining three, double speed arcane missiles, with two casts under arcane potency, while holding a lightning capacitor. It's a great feeling.
If you've kept up with the Mage - How Can Arcane Damage Work thread in the class mechanics forum, you will know that the 2.2 version of MSD has shaken up high-end PvE raiding regarding arcane missiles and it's interaction with the aforementioned metagem, and the synergies between the two and gear like the lightning capacitor and the ashtongue trinket (among other proc based gear). Essentially the new MSD yields a ~26% chance for one AM cast to proc MSD. the explosive amount of missiles/second, combined with the arcane tree's natural affinities for critical strikes, winds up giving TLC something like a 118dps value compared to a naked trinket slot.
This development got me thinking about mage burst damage in PvP. Assuming nothing more than access to a TLC and a helm with a metagem slot to hold an MSD, could there be an ArcFrost spec that is a net gain in terms of burst damage while not sacrificing an unacceptable amount of survivability?
I think you lose way too much survivability and the burst from elemental if you spec so and the loss of winters chill will hurt after 2.3
I use MSD in s2 helm and its awesome, by far the best meta gem you can have in pvp slot. As I see it, its more like extra bonus, sometimes gamebraker sometimes not. Focus procced am is nice but there are multiple other uses i.e havent seen a single warrior pummel focus casted sheep from melee range
The extra damage output given by the deep arcane talents are not worth it. MSD itself boosts the dmg output enough and do remember that mages arent exactly primary dps in 5vs5 or 3vs3. Still dmg but the cc comes first and there the deep frost talents help.
If you've kept up with the Mage - How Can Arcane Damage Work thread in the class mechanics forum, you will know that the 2.2 version of MSD has shaken up high-end PvE raiding regarding arcane missiles and it's interaction with the aforementioned metagem, and the synergies between the two and gear like the lightning capacitor and the ashtongue trinket (among other proc based gear). Essentially the new MSD yields a ~26% chance for one AM cast to proc MSD. the explosive amount of missiles/second, combined with the arcane tree's natural affinities for critical strikes, winds up giving TLC something like a 118dps value compared to a naked trinket slot.
This development got me thinking about mage burst damage in PvP. Assuming nothing more than access to a TLC and a helm with a metagem slot to hold an MSD, could there be an ArcFrost spec that is a net gain in terms of burst damage while not sacrificing an unacceptable amount of survivability?
The idea would be that you polymorph and CS early and often, as any spell at all can proc the Focus buff. If CS is on cooldown, or the situation is not right for CC, use nova/lance or frostbolt. Whenever a clearcast or focus proc's, find the main assist target and AM them.
Although I just thought this up this morning while waiting for an exam (so I haven't been able to play with it in-game), some of the possible arguments in favor of (or at least not against) this spec seem to be:
You dont lose imp CS compared to 17/0/44
A burst damage strategy that is possibly comparable (maybe better) than pvpfrost
An uninteruptable nuke, without having to equip t4
Synergies between the trees (shatter, frostbite, spellpower)
A larger mana pool (at least in absolute terms, possibly not in effective terms)
As I said, this is entirely untested, so I don't even know about some of the talent choices. For instance, I dont know if the PoM to AP chain is worth is, as opposed to 5/5 Mind Mastery, or even something like Imp Damp/Amp + Arc Fort + Pris Cloak. But I figured I might as well bring it up for debate.
If you have any knee-jerk doubts about whether anything could be better than an established build for PvP, please go jump in a raid and see how you feel after chaining three, double speed arcane missiles, with two casts under arcane potency, while holding a lightning capacitor. It's a great feeling.
Discuss.
I am playing an AM-spec in pve atm too, and thus i was thinking in quite a similar direction like you. I also used the 50/11/0 spec in AV farming and even in 10 games of a fresh 3v3 team, and the potential to burst someone down with MSD-powered AMs is insane. For pvp i would transform the spec into 40/0/21. The idea is to burst someone down before getting killed yourself, thus i prioritize on dmg-talents over survivability (piercing ice > frostbite for example), and using Iceblock more as a way to get out of a CC asap and keep the pressure up.
The good thing is that with a frostbuild you have quite a lot of spells to get the MSD to proc and finish the opponent with a superfast and uninterruptable AM. Although it's too bad that a PoMed Frostbolt will consume the MSD proc. Thus it's probably the best to start a fight with AP-PoM-Frostbolt and follow it up with a chain of maybe Fireblast -> CoC -> Nova -> Icelance -> offensive Coldsnap -> Icelance -> maybe another Icelance and a CS somewhere in between there on casters (can do that on others too though, just to let MSD proc!), giving MSD 8-9 chances to proc for the following AM.
Another pretty strong bonus of an MSD-powered AM is the spellpushback on other casters, which is esp. strong vs. healers who rely on spells with casting time. I had this situation nurmerous times when i was just outdamaging a healer (shamans are best for this ) by spamming AM while he couldn't get his heals off.
While i haven't uses this spec seriously in arena yet (mostly b/c i am a lazy bastard), i see huge potential in 3v3 or 4dps 5v5 teams and maybe even more in duels where one might overcome some otherwise hard matchups (SL-warlocks, resto druids/shamans) solely by the insane burst potential - but fighting rogues should be tougher than with full frost.
10/03/07, 11:43 PM
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