Yakman

I figured this would be one of the better places to troll for someone who knew what they were talking about.

Short version of the question:

Is 'Suppression' a useful talent in pvp?

Long version of the question:

Even when gearing oneself purely for pvp a caster will pick up a bit of spell hit. Since it only requires 4% additional spell hit to get 100% spell hit chance on a pvp target it is worthwhile to know exactly what suppression does.

If suppression only gives spell hit in the form of direct %spell hit then the answer is no (maybe worth it to put 1 or 2 points in). It would only be worthwhile if suppression negated some of the effect of resistance, or spell avoidance. (by 'avoidance' I am reffering to abilities such as the druid talent 'Balance of power')

More than anything I would love to know if suppression had any 'spell penetration' like effect in negating shadow resistance to affliction spells. Any thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

Saethar

No. Suppression is chance for the spell to hit. Resists due to resistance gear or talents are not affected by Suppression.

Also, note that 100% hit isn't attainable. It's capped at 99%.

 

Nostrum

You only need 3% to hit an equal level player 99% of the time (theres always a 1% miss chance).
Hit/miss chance is nothing to do with resistance, if you want to hit those 300+ shadow resist players with shadowbolts you just want 3% hit and stack penetration gear.

If you're using binary spells like frostbolt/mindflay it's always useful to have a decent amount of spell pen gear to get around buffs.

Not 100% sure on 'chance to resist' talents but I'm pretty sure + hit works against them.

 

Frieza

I could be wrong but i knew that Suppression counters specific resist talents, like Unbreakable Will

 

Kazanir

This is true. Talents like the moonkin tree 4% spell resist, Unbreakable Will, and in general "x% chance to resist" are really "chance to be missed by spells" and are countered by +spellhit.

 

Weigraf

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

 

dreadloc

This is amazing news if it is true. My rogue struggles verses Orcs purely due to Stun resists, but if I slap my pve gear on with 200 Hit, can I negate his stun resists?

If this works the same as spells then it's amazing, but I have yet to see any hard evidence to this effect.

 

Shadowborne

I've always been under the impression spell hit countered resist talents like unbreakable will.

Either way I would get 3/5 Suppression if I went afflction spec because I spam CoEx on Rogues when they pop CloS and that's an extra 6% chance for it to land.

 

Yakman

Hrm, sounds like this is something worth testing at some point. A real pain to test though.

In the mean time I'm fiddling around with imp HS and a second point in imp CoA instead of 3 of my suppression points. I figure I'll stack +spellhit on my pve gear to counter the loss, this way my shadowbolts will benefit a great deal, all in all probably a good idea.

As far as the rogue comment above: I don't think stun racial counts as you 'missing' them on an attack, so I doubt +hit would do anything for you. It's not the attack itself they are 'resisting', it's the stun effect.

 

Yakman

Now that IS an interesting idea. CloS would be a great way to test suppression. At least vs CloS. TBH I had pvped a great deal with full suppression and never felt I was getting more than a 10% chance of hitting rogues with my dot spam. (I don't care if the rogue gets to me, I just don't want them to vanish and stay vanished :P)


Anyway, interesting thoughts.

 

Agni

I was wondering the same thing (from a mage perspective) and from the mage pvp thread just below this:

Someone else in the thread ran a test with molten armor and clos I believe. If anyone has additional evidence about abilities other than Cloak of Shadows, I think it'd be worth posting.

 

Xunwael

How is this hard to test? Find a priest (with unbreakable will), spam improved counterspell/silence on him. I beileve you'll find it varies little from a 15% chance to resist. Having PvPed with over 10% spellhit on both my shadow priest and mage for the last two years, I can assure you that the chance to resist my silences is far above the <5% it would be if my +hit helped fight so-called -hit talents.

"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice."
- Clark's Law

 

Shadowborne

You can't really spam improved CS/Silence, it'd be more time effecient to spam fear.

 

Xunwael

You can spam imp. counterspell about as much as fear with diminishing returns taken into account, anyway, point was it's easy to test.

"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice."
- Clark's Law

 

Vermis

Tseric posted about this on us mage forums when the talents got changed before naxx patch. Basicly talents like elemental precission which reduces chance to resist by 1%/2%/3% works like a talent that adds +1/2/3 to your hit. Arcane subtetly works like spell penetration ie 5/10.

As stated before in this post, you need +3% to hit the same lvl player character (4% being the miss chance and it can be capped to 99%) Hit itself has 0 impact on any kind of resistance gained from talents or gear that would get the spell resisted, thus blizzard used to use white and yellow resistance markings on combat logs. Spell penetration is the sole factor that can be used to counter resistances gained from gear, now since I've used most of my time thinking resistance pve-pow im not exactly sure how talents are worked around. But one thing im sure of, +hit and talents that increase spell hit wont have any use in pvp past 3%

 

Teenee

This is well known and has been confirmed by blues.

The question people are asking is what effect talents like Arctic Winds have.

Looking at the spelldata from suchs spells (like Balance of Power).

It seems credible that it's the inverse of say shaman's Elemental Precision (which is well accepted as meaning +hit).

And therefore spell hit obviously counters such talents. Question remains if talents (or racials) that counter specific things can also be countered in similar fashion.

 

Vermis

Tseric was a blue -_-'

Would be a lot simplier with old yellow and white resist. For me, it would make sense if those arent counterable ie those are there cant do anything about it. Gathering data from something like this would be more or less pain in the ass due specific resists and diminishing returns that would kick in

 

Apate

Slow down, there
+hit is not + spell hit, and +stun resist is not +spell resist.

See you, auntie.

 

DaveA50

I just finished fear a priest with unbreakable will 100 times, with 0 shadow resist.
I put a curse of recklessness on him so he wouldn't run, and although it was resisted once, this should be irrelevent.
I was wearing 285 hit (22.59%), the most I could possible equip.

Out of the 100 fears, 0 were resisted. However, I did mess up the timing and casted fear too early and got some immune messages, but I did not count these in the 100.

My conclusion: spell hit does work on talents such as unbreakable will.

 

TheOnly

Now, if only it would work on Berserker Rage. :P

It would be nice to know if it countered Cloak of Skill any. You would probably need 15% + from gear and 10% from suppression to make the difference large enough to eat into the 90% from CloS.

 

Vermis

If its spell hit that works its rather odd since its stated that spell hit works with lvl difference.

No spell penetration gear was used? Oo
This could get rather interesting when pvp casters start to use spell hit gear to compensate for racial/talented resistances.

 

Lodi

How about stun/snare resistance meta/talents? Do spells and procs of spells like impact/blackout/frostbite get their user's +hit applied against the resist talent?

Now, what if it's a physical (hamstring, wingclip, kidney shot) snare or stun? Would spell hit still be used (obviously not melee hit) - this is a wholly impractical thing in any case for the classes having physical snares/stuns. Except, I guess warlocks w/ felguard. Does the warlock's spellhit affect the pet's stun resistance mitigation via spellhit? (I'd say no)

 

DaveA50

I was using no spell penetration, but at 0 shadow resist, it seems pointless to have used any.

 

marloz

Would be interesting testing arcane spells (a combo to get as many casts off as possible, i.e. cs+iae+iae) with as much as +hit gear available plus 5/5 in Arcane Focus vs. a CloS'ed rogue.

I belive CloS technically gives you 95% to resist (90% from ability itself, 4% level, 1% non-mitigate able) so you could get this down to, let me guess, around 70%.

Go test

 

tunah

I can hit bosses with fireballs, which is odd, because I can hit trash mobs with fireballs :p

Here's my stab at a model, based on what I've read here and by analogy/consistency with the melee combat system. (spell miss ~ melee miss, penetration vs resistance ~ weapon skill vs defense - spell skill used to be a visible stat).

Components
(Excluded: resilience, percentage increases or decreases in spell damage from talents, immunities).

Innate resistance.
Granted by: Level. 5*(mob_level - player_level). Mob only
Mitigated by: none.
Minimum value is zero.

Additional resistance.
Granted by: 'resistance' stat - per-school
Mitigated by:
* 'Spell penetration' stat in char sheet
* -resistance debuff on target (covered by above i guess)
Minimum value is zero.

Spell miss
Given by:
* 5% base.
* Level (e.g. +12% for +3 mobs).
* 'reduces your chance to be hit by (all/frost/...) spells by X%' - per-school/all-schools
* 'increases your chance to resist (fear/stun/...) effects by X%' - per-mechanic
* debuff on attacker 'reduces your chance to hit with spells by X%'
Mitigated by:
* 'hit rating' stat
* 'increases your chance to hit with (all/frost/...) spells by X%' - per-school/all-schools
* 'reduces your opponent's chance to resist (all/frost/...) spells by X%' - identical to above
* 'reduces the chance your enemies resist your (affliction/...) spells by X%' - per-tree
Minimum value is 1%.

Example
I'm a warlock trying to cast Fear on a Priest, relevant factors:

Innate resistance: 0.

Additional resistance: The priest has 70 shadow resistance from Shadow Protection, and 12 shadow resistance from an equipped item. I have 35 spell penetration, so relevant value is 47 resistance.

Spell miss: 5% base. The priest has 5/5 unbreakable will, this adds 15% (Fear is a fear effect). I have ~30 spell hit, worth -2% miss (Fear is a spell). I have 3/5 suppression giving -6% hit (Fear is affliction school). Relevant value is 12%.

Result
(pretty sure this is known to be a two-roll system)

Spell miss check
If random() < spellmiss% then the spell/effect resists. At one point this gave a while 'Resist'.

Resistance check
Compute resist% = 0.75 * max((innate + additional)/(5*casterlevel), 1). This is the average amount of the spell that will be resisted. (i.e., resistance gives linear average reduction up to the 75% resist cap). Now we have different paths depending on whether this spell/effect is binary (frostbolt, fear) or nonbinary (fireball, shadowbolt), and whether it's a spell (fireball, fear) or other effect (concussion blow, shadow school melee damage).

* For a binary spell or effect, if random() < resist% then the spell resists, else it fully hits.

* For a non-binary spell, we look up the probability of 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and full resist from a table or function, and randomly choose one with the probability.

* For a non-binary non-spell (e.g. shadow melee damage), same as above but all full resists are replaced by 75% resists.

At one point, full resists resulting from the resistance check gave a yellow 'Resist'.

Example
12% chance for a 'white resist'.
Assuming no white resist, 0.75 * (0 + 47)/(5 * 70) = 10.1% chance for a yellow resist, 89.9% chance for spell hit.
Total: 20.7% chance for resist, 79.3% chance for successful fear.

Does that sound about right?