Oopsies

I'm currently having quite a bit of trouble with any team that has a resto druid in 2k+ rated 2s (So mostly rogue / druid or lock / druid). I can generally run them out of mana fairly easily and then after they innervate (mostly devoured though the smart ones will toss some lifeblooms up first) I can run them back to 0 mana.

However at this point I have severe difficulty actually finishing the game. I turn my pets autodevour off so they no longer get insta lifeblooms, and I dot them up and try to keep them oom. But generally they can LoS me long enough to actually get enough mana back to stay alive.

We had a 25 minute fight against a rogue / druid team where my pally was able to drink several times and I was able to keep the rogue CoX kited, however I just couldn't finish the game even after the druid was out of mana.

Any tips?

 

Quixotic

Are you 27/34 or UA? I play in a 2100+ 2v2 with a resto druid with me as UA, and once it comes down to the healer being low on mana, I chase them around and get off an instant Howl of Terror, then a single target fear (their trinket is usually up by then) then redot. The opposing healer cannot out heal your dots with spirit regen only. You could be safe and just chain drain mana the healer as well, but it usually isn't needed.

 

Senzamore

Basically copied and pasted my query from a good thread on the wow forums. I figured you all could throw in more than enough excellent insight into the situation.

Currently I'm 13/37/11, and it's not bad at all, but I notice that a lot of the time I'm rendered nearly damageless. I run entirely 2v2 and 3v3. For the 2v2, it's admittedly varied, but I mainly go with a mage or a paladin. Warrior/Paladin and anything/Priest gives me a headache due to the massive amount of cleansing going on, and I just have an extremely difficult time doing any sort of noticeable damage. I read earlier about dotting warriors up, fearing the paladin, and getting that one good cc off that enables you to really damage the warrior, but the problem is that in those teams the warrior's usually on me, which means that aside from my two instant cast dots, a one time death coil, and shadowburn, I'm s.o.l.

For these reasons I was strongly considering going 5/35/21, as it seems like a really good spec to remedy my problem. 70% chance to get off searing pains, immolates, and incinerates seems very appealing to me, and if they bother to lock out that tree, then I still have my very viable shadow damage to lean on. It also seems like I'm losing out on very, very little by switching to this spec from my current one, as I never bothered with the felguard anyways, and the 8 points in affliction seem largely "worthless" to me right now anyways. (10% more on agony is barely noticeable, I have more than enough hit to counter players, amplify curse is a "meh" one and done talent, and life tap is more for raiding than anything.)

This looks like it would compliment every partner I currently run with, as I lose virtually nothing noticeable but 2% less chance to be crit and my pet would take 10% more damage (I'd take demonic knowledge over resilience).

As for 3v3s, I run, once again, with basically whatever we feel like. Anything from Warrior, Paladin, Warlock, to Warrior, Mage, Warlock gib teams. At my bracket level and battlegroup a lot of things work. It seems like it'd useful for that too.

I have the priviledge of running with some of the best players not on my server, but in my battle group, and I'd like to be able to contribute something noticeable so they don't have to carry my weight so much. I should also note that I don't really care a single bit about a spec's potential negative influence on raiding or grinding, as those two aspects of the game take a very distant 2nd and 3rd to arena proficiency.

Good lord, this was a wall of text. Apologies, but I'd really, really love some pro opinions on my musings.

 

Raszin

I'm a 7/43/11 (13.2kstm 310resilience 1k spelldmg) lock that teams up with a combat rogue in 2vs2, we're doing ok but we want to do alot better. Our tactic is to get one down asap while I usually fear the other, specially on healer+other teams, I send my felguard to the dps target, CoA+Corruption+Immolate and off I go to CoT and fear the healer. Our problems begin when we cant get one down fast enough, then he gets healed and usually we lose if the fight lasts long, cause if they are smart enough they go for my partner or the other dps is an IB mage that when the paladin bubbles get healed and so on. I'm considering respeccing to this:

1- keeping my survival and going 24/37/0 but that wouldnt gimp my burst?
2- going into destro, at least until conflag (another instant) and backlash (but then again they usually go for my partner) and get nighfall and siphon life (extra dot always helps) and using felhunter always.

My question is, chosing from one of those builds reminding the fact that the first one without felguard+shadowburn and the way we play we might not be able to kill one as fast as we want to, or go for the second one and hope that we can nuke one in half a second (which wont happen if it's an IB mage etc...) and leave no space for mistakes.

 

Senzamore

I'll throw in my two cents for you.

You already well know that your capabilities lie in completely molesting the opposition before they can outlast you. Especially with a rogue, you are not a very enduring team. So any team with reasonable heals will pose troubles. Luckily you're probably the best cc class in the game right now, and your partner has more than a few tricks up his sleeve as well.

For healer teams, basically it's gonna come down to the same thing. Doing massive damage to the chosen target, you fearing the healer, and him assisting when your moves go on cooldown. However, what'll give you the jump on healer teams is careful watch of their heals. So bring out the felhunter, sick him on the healer, and do your routine against the focused target. When you see them charge up a heal, instantly lock it. You now have six seconds to burn every cooldown you have, every form of burst, every bit of high impact damage that you can muster in order to bring down the focus before they can heal again. It takes a lot of practice, and a lot of concentration to time them right. Now your rogue could do it too, but obviously kick has a much smaller range, and isn't advisable. If it doesn't look like you're going to make the window (of six seconds), then have your rogue cheat over to the healer, and have him blind them. From here on you need to either finish off the focus or have one of you charge up a final crowd control move in order to kill them.

I'm not sure if you can prep in arenas (newbish, I know, but I haven't played my rogue since 1.xx), but if so, and you can spec into it, is there a good build that allows for it? Two blinds would be ridiculously useful for control. Because make no doubt, against high ranked teams, control, presence of mind, and the ability to lock out healers will win you the battles. Paladins should be the easiest, obviously, since they have to charge up heals (hopefully a Holy Light, which, with tongues, is ridiculously easy to lock). Priests will go second in terms of difficulty, and then druids. I'll admit that my team is still having trouble with druids, and we're working them out.

Almost always you'll want to go for the damage first before the healer, because usually they can just plain outlast you. Beware of smart healers that may stun your felhunter than heal, depriving you of a spell lock, and have your skillcoil at the ready.

Personally I specced 5/35/21 yesterday, and I'm extremely satisfied with it. I have survivability still (no demonic resilience, though), instant cast corruption, and much more capability in terms of damage due to 70% protection on destro spells. If you have the pvp fear gloves, it makes for a fearsome tandem. You don't really lose much from your current build (as the felhunter's spell lock and dispells are just overpoweredly important, and I recommend having him out almost always). Also, I'm not sure, but wouldn't your felguard's intercept stun diminish your rogue partner's stuns too? Correct me if I'm wrong. Your crit will remain similar due to point swapping from demonic tactics to devastation. With 3/3 demonic knowledge, and 1/3 in mana feed, your crucial pet will almost always have something in the tank. I don't know, I just think that the improved performance from immolate and searing pain that 5/35/21 brings is invaluable.

Your group seems pretty solid, since you have both great magical and melee damage, crowd control, and wound poison. Just practice a lot with your coordination in controlling the healer, and you'll find that your rating will rise.

But those are just my two (or more like twenty) cents. Good luck in your 2s endeavors!

http://wow.tachyonsix.com.nyud.net:8...11122aiEjr.png

 

Kobal

I have a question from the other end of the spectrum...

My warlock is my main only since TBC, and I have only recently started to PvP and do BGs and 5v5 arenas with him. Mostly to get the worthwhile PvE upgrades.

This also means my spec of 0/21/40 is basically set in stone, as I really enjoy this spec in raids, where my main focus lies. I am aware that this is not the best possible set of circumstances.

That said I feel that even under these circumstances I am performing worse that I could do. I know that the best thing a warlock can do in the arena is to try and disrupt (with felhunter-spell lock and fear) the opposing team - in particular their healers. I am also trying to get my hp and resilence up there, but this takes time...

But beyond that, what can I do to improve my performance? In particular, what can I do (without CoEX) once a melee class sticks to me?

 

Rasputin

0/21/40 is an extremely weak PvP spec. You lack most forms of DoT damage, all of the survivability talents, and all of the health regen talents. You are even missing the powerful PvP talents from Destruction, namely Shadowfury and Nether Protection. Most of your damage has cast times and is crit-dependent, both of which are at a disadvantage in PvP. If you truly are only interested in some of the PvP gear for use in PvE, my advice is to wait until your favorite BG weekend and farm the honor, being prepared to get stomped in certain(many) situations. Then never look back. Otherwise, you could take my course of action; I am 0/21/40 Sunday evening through Thursday night, and some form of demonology in the interim. It makes PvP far less frustrating and increases my honor gained by making the BGs much more palatable, and thus making it more likely that I won't stop in frustration after 3 games. If you arena only once a week as I generally do, it will also increase your performance there and lead to more points and more gear. With daily quests, the expense is not that devastating, and I am sitting on some 500g and no epic flying mount.

To sum up: if your spec is truly set, then simply be prepared to be at a hefty disadvantage. If you have a block of time in which you are not raiding, then I would suggest a respec to a more PvP-oriented build during that time, to something like 7/7/47 if you are really enjoying destruction.

 

Zendelfin

Has anyone wiht 20+% crit tried arenas with a 23/4/34 build?

This gives drain tanking, 1 point shadow embrace, siphon life, and curse of exhaustion. While you miss out on soullink it does provide some very good offensive abilites to burn down rogues and warriors (the classes that I seem to have the most trouble with). Backlash, conflag, shadowburn, 70% noninterrupts, and if you get lucky a night fall proc.
It seems as though between all of these and a nicely timed deathcoil it wouldn't be too hard to take down a rogue in 15 seconds or so with some ok healing being done as well.

Other than the obviously missing soul link the main drawback is that you miss out on spell damage talents. My shadowbolt, without CoS or a crit proc up was only hitting for 2900. I was only messing around in EoS and didn't have apet healer like I normaly do in 2v2s. so the typical scenario was either lucky nightfall proc followed by a backlash, shadowburn, and possibly a deathcoil = dead rogue/warrior, or no lucky proc = dead warlock.

Currently I'm running a 24/37 build because I only have 10.7k hp and 100 resilience. I'd like to know if this is a build worth using once I get some more pvp gear so that I can choose between the extra crit on felweave over dreadweave.

 

Quixotic

Warlocks that rely on crit tend to be very bad in arena. If you sit there casting shadowbolt you are useless, our main job is to CC with fears and apply pressure with our dots. Shadowbolt dps with a crit centric build fails at higher levels of resilence, and I fail to see the attraction in destruction at all. Backlash is a lackluster talent, and it lacks the defensive capabilities that soul link or instant howl of terror provide.

For competitive play, there really are only 3 viable builds (with minor variations of course), 43/7/11, 24/37, and 6/44/11.

 

◊ Vain

I see that many warlocks on top 5v5 teams are 6/44/11, and my question is why did they put 5 points put into Demonic Tactics (+5% crit for you and pet), as opposed to almost anything else (e.g. the second point of Life Tap, or Improved Curse of Weakness for -70AP, or even Suppression or Soul Siphon).

The pet has a base 5% crit rate, plus another 5% from the talent, but that 10% is totally negated by resilience.

Meanwhile, the warlocks' own spell crit rate is usually around 13% total including the talent (despite having the talent, these guys are wearing the Dreadweave gear not the Silk), which is also almost completely negated by resilience.

A second question I have is, do these warlocks start with the Felhunter or the Felguard in 5v5? (e.g. do they start with the Felhunter and then switch to the Felguard if it gets killed?).

How do you feel Soul Link/Siphon Life compares with the Felguard/Shadowburn build in 5v5?

 

Zendelfin

While I agree with the duties that you state of warlocks I disagree in your value assessment of backlash. I really doubt anyone with this build would ever bother to "sit there casting shadowbolts". At least the times i've had backlash I never stood around; it was always kite time and occasionally a pet or a melee got on me and I would jump and spin, get off the shadowbolt and keep running, if they were close to dead it was shadowburn/nightfall etc. With this build you always keep your dots up and do some kiting and drain tanking, it's the nightfall procs and backlash+shadowburn combo that finishes people off. (If you've ever PVP'd with a destro build you know that if a melee or pet is on you then backlash is constantly up which means every 8 seconds you get a instant cast shadowbolt) Backlash comes out to about a 250dps talent with some variation depending on crit rate.

Now, perhaps you are simply stating that currently the build is mitigated too much by resilience gear, this I would agree with. However, when resilience begins to mitigate dot damage (as rumor has it) then damage wise it will be viable.

Defensive maybe not so much. Though, there is certainly a high level of defense involved if the melee on you drops in 12 seconds as opposed to 1-2 minutes of drawn out combat (Granted, the same can be said of the warlock who dies in 12 seconds because he doesn't have soul link). Also, becoming immune to shadow and fire damage can be quite defensive.

 

Cronjob

Thats a good build but you rely too much on lucky procs are you said yourself before. Not to mention that backlash can be eaten off you /dispelled and if you are up against a good smart lock you'll never get to use it cause it will be eaten as soon as it pops before you get to jump and turn. Also you will be low on HP and/or mitigation without SL and the felpup resists for casters.

The one thing I do like about this build is is nether prot, that can be a game breaker some times but it doesnt help you against melee pounding you. I used that build for a long time but a 24/37/0 is much better IMO.

 

Raszin

I played my entire season1 and what is gone from season2 being 24/37 or 7/43/11, I play in all shapes 2vs2 (without a healer), 3vs3 and 5vs5 and the one that I found more effective was the felguard+shadowburn build though in season1 when I reach 2.1k rating in 2vs2 that build doesnt cut it, the lack of burst is depressing and since I played without a healer we couldnt go for the drain mana one, we had to kill fast and a fear resisted, a CS that didnt land and it was a lost game. Now I'm experiencing a destruction build(5/6/50, there's no half destruction build, you go full or you better look the other way around, I was totaly owned in arenas (my gear was based on tanking inside so my crit sucks), but honestly I'm having a blast with my lock again and that is the point of playing the game, and with patience, getting my crit rate higher without gimping too much the other stats, I'm sure a destruction build wont be that bad for arenas. Basically I was trying to get better when deep inside I was just looking for fun, and with almost 200 rating less because of a wild and not efficient destruction build, I've found it again.

 

ReverendSin

I just respecc'd to 24/37/0 and I'm having a lot of fun with it, damage isn't as powerful as UA when you're left alone but when you're getting hammered you can really take a beating where UA can't. Can't wait to break 500 resilience, this week will put me at 450 with almost 13k unbuffed HP and 1100 shadow damage with felhunter out, no kings, no fort, no commanding.

 

Kcolraw

...if you're talking about 23/4/34 then no, rofl, trust me you'll be getting more backlash and nightfall procs than you can handle

even though right now i'm 23/38/0, i tried 23/4/34 for a coupla weeks, it's probably the most fun and versatile pvp build ever

people assume speccing destro means you're going to be standing still and spamming nukes most of the time... not at all, not with 23/4/34 anyway, as a cloth wearing cc heavy class, in arena you're always going to be constantly moving around... with 23/4/34 your playstyle is still affliction at heart (3 instant dots, coex, massive drain mana/life ticks), but when the time comes for the team to focus fire and burst, you have the most instant cast nukes of any build/class... a chain of backlash -> nightfall -> conflag -> skillcoil -> shadowburn is deadly when timed with counterspells/interrupts on enemy healers

 

Myonax

I have been destruction for about 3 months on a upper mid-tier 5v5 (1800-2100) and I do enjoy it. Like most Warlocks I spend the first crucial 30 seconds of the fight CoT and Fearing appropriate classes. We run Shaman/Pally/Shadow Priest/Warrior then sub in me or one of 2 other mages.

The destro build, for me, has one thing that few other builds can bring to the table: Being able to DPS effectively under focus fire. Backlash is a phenomenal talent in PvP. I love a hunter pet or felhunter on me, it significantly increases my dps. For those of you that think Backlash is a Luck-based talent, you need to try it. I guarantee you will change your opinion. I have had times where I have been focused fire and start with a normal shadow bolt. Through interrupts it takes me 6 seconds to cast it. While I am casting I proc a backlash. Immediately upon casting the first i fire off the backlassh, then a 3rd procs. No Crits involved that is 1700x3 damage in 1 second. The way backlash proc works is as soon as it procs, the 8 second cool down for it starts. So if you cast a backlash at the end of its cool down another can immediately proc. A quick rundown as far as I see of the pros and cons of destro in 5v5 arena.

Pro:
1) Able to maintain solid DPS when focused fire with Searing pain/Shadowburn and Backlash procs.
2) When not focused fired highest burst potential possible.
3) Shadowfury is a Solid pvp opener. In conjunction with Howl of terror is very disorienting start of a fight. Shadowfury can also be used as an interrupt for a crucial heal or buy a few seconds for a heal to land on you.
4) Nether protection is a huge increase in survivability. It often negates stacking dots and can make you immune to fear.
5) Is not nerfed by the resilience affecting DoT changes.

Con:
1) Dots are mostly useless. Without SE or UA there is nothing to protect your dots and so for the most part they are useless.
2) Not enough Crit on PvP gear to overcome 500 resilience.
3) Lacks survivability of Soul link
4) Doesn't have as much synergy with a shadow priest as UA builds.

To each their own, but a destro build is viable for me.

 

• probiscus

Since this is the "seeking advice" thread, I'd like to rehash an old issue; that of totem stomping.

The two solutions people have presented me with are:

/tar Mana Tide Totem
/tar Earthbind Totem
/tar Searing Totem
... etc
/petattack

and

/petattack [target=Grounding Totem]
/petattack [target=windfury Totem]
etc.

Neither works with any degree of reliability - what are you folks using for a button mashing pet totem killer?

 

Vazu

Eh, at 450ish Resilience and 12k health, the need for more stamina and Resilience is pretty minimal. Most high rated teams will ignore SL Warlocks. Go for +damage gear and stop gemming for Resilience & Stamina.

 

tristantio

To a large degree this isn't a theory crafting question or theory advice as much as it is a gear question.

Currently I've purchased season 1 gear and have been saving my points from season 2. Out of the season 1 gear I have 2 piece felweave (helm/shoulders) and 2 piece dreadweave (gloves/legs). With the upcoming change to the 4 piece bonus, I've been having a major dilemma in deciding if it is worth foregoing purchasing gear pieces that I have a desperate need to upgrade in favor of repeating my purchased slots to get the 4 piece bonus (whether that's with 4 pieces of season 2 gear, or buying 2 pieces of season 1 gear).

As you can see from my armory, my weapon/offhand/robe could use the arena gear upgrades, however I'm not sure if the .2 seconds off fear would still be more powerful than increasing those slots as quickly as possible.

Is it worth foregoing around 100 more spell damage and 50 resilience in favor of the .2 seconds off fear?

(I'm using a 26/35/0 build right now - passed demonic resilience because my pet never dies and 3% reduced chance to be crit isn't that useful when I'm not targeted that often in matches and felhunter keeps himself up easily even with the damage split from soul link)

 

• frmorrison

No, especially if you use /stopcasting macros, 0.2 seconds isn't all that much (but it is still very good), especially that you have to "waste" about 3,000 points to get two S1 gear.

Getting a new weapon/off-hand and robe is better than the Fear bonus. The S2 Dreadweave robe is likely the best points/upgrade bonus you can get.

 

Cronjob

Why Dreadweave over Felshroud? I should be able to get the robes next week I fell less than 100 points short this week. I've been debating between the two and I think the Felshroud is better because while it doesnt have as much stam and is slightly lower on spell damage. I think it is more versitle in the fact that you can go afflction or any nuke build even for raiding and make it a viable robe. Am I way off in my thinking?

 

Merin