I notice that a lot of you run warrior & rogue, which is probably the worst combo I can think of in 5v5.
Some people play with their friends, and would rather keep friends that ditch people for a higher arena rating.
Honestly, unless folks are asking for advice in top 3% arenas, then suggesting swapping out players isn't really a good solution. It's ok to point out the weakness that exists, but advice along with that, detailing how to potentially make it work is very welcomed.
Yeah I'm conflicted on that too. I think soon I'll be getting into 5v5, but since the only MS warrior I really know is my alt we likely won't have a fulltime MS warrior on the team. And due to the players we have and friends in guild I play with, the team will likely be elemental shaman/holy priest/paladin/combat rogue/feral druid, with me sometimes subbing in my MS warrior for my shaman. Doubt its an optimal team at all, but its what we have.
Our 5v5 team (ranked 37 last week) got completely decimated by a no-Warrior team last night, 3 games straight.
The team was Shadow Priest, UA 'Lock, SL 'Lock, Mutilate Rogue, Holy Paladin. The sheer precision of their Fears was astounding, even with our Fear Wards, Tremor Totems, and 2x Warriors.
I notice that a lot of you run warrior & rogue, which is probably the worst combo I can think of in 5v5. IMO, rogues & warriors are interchangeable and should never be played in the same lineup together. They're both a melee DPS that brings -healing to the team, but don't have a good synergy and work well with different classes (ie - shaman + warrior = rape, shaman + rogue = ? barely any buff).
If warriors and rogues are interchangeable, then surely warriors and warriors are interchangeable? And yet MANY successful teams run 2 x warriors.
rogues compliment one of the weaknesses of warriors - their inability to lock down targets with BoF. The kiting meta-game is huge at the moment and rogues are *reasonable* counters to it because of KS. Warrior intercepts for 3 sec stun, then you unload a full KS. It's a lot of time on target for a warrior and a LOT of damage. I also usually drop in a 5pt Expose first thing, which ups warrior damage considerably too.
It's nothing 2 x Mace Warriors can't do, but we don't have any of those
If warriors and rogues are interchangeable, then surely warriors and warriors are interchangeable? And yet MANY successful teams run 2 x warriors.
rogues compliment one of the weaknesses of warriors - their inability to lock down targets with BoF. The kiting meta-game is huge at the moment and rogues are *reasonable* counters to it because of KS. Warrior intercepts for 3 sec stun, then you unload a full KS. It's a lot of time on target for a warrior and a LOT of damage. I also usually drop in a 5pt Expose first thing, which ups warrior damage considerably too.
It's nothing 2 x Mace Warriors can't do, but we don't have any of those
I don't think warriors and rogues are interchangeable at all. For starters, rogues are targetted first or second, while warriors are ususally left for last. A warrior needs a support structure to be successful (and becomes really powerful when he has it) while a rogue can be useful to some extend wandering off by himself. I think it is a mistake to equate a rogue with a warrior just because both have an anti healing debuff.
I don't think warriors and rogues are interchangeable at all. For starters, rogues are targetted first or second, while warriors are ususally left for last. A warrior needs a support structure to be successful (and becomes really powerful when he has it) while a rogue can be useful to some extend wandering off by himself. I think it is a mistake to equate a rogue with a warrior just because both have an anti healing debuff.
A Rogue can only be somewhat self supporting for a matter of time, if the game goes long and they run out of cooldowns, their utility goes down, and their ability to be kited goes way beyond warriors.
Good Rogues are an excellent support class though, run around shiv-ing, kicking, gouging, doing whatever they can to provide moderate confusion and control the map(to a lesser degree than a Frost Mage/Soul Link Warlock, but still very well if done correctly).
Interesting, I didn't realize that Rogues were forced to use Wound Poison 24/7.
Hm, well, I guess that is a biased statement because our 5v5 runs with a hunter all the time (me) who brings frost trap to the table, so cripple kiting is pointless as is the fact that mind-numbing will be insta-cleansed by poison totems, the shammy, or either pally. I just feel like you could put a much more valuable person that slot instead of a rogue - to me, 1 slot in a 5v5 should be devoted to melee DPS who can MS & no more. Sorry for the lack of explanation. Also, I guess I'm also biased because of the ease with which we kite 2 melee teams due to frost trap - I'd imagine that against caster heavy teams, warrior + rogue locking someone down would be pretty sick.
EDIT: After reading other posts, sorry again if I came off as harsh... but it seems like many people have more than 5 people on their team and I was just suggesting you could sub in someone for either the rogue or warrior. As far as friends, that's a given & I understand that completely. As far as 2x warrior teams go, it seems they always run with a double pally as well which makes perfect sense due to BoF. However, IMO these teams are very weak due to their sheer uniformity in strategy and lack of diversity. I don't mean to offend people, but it seems to me that a balanced setup (priest/pally/ele sham/rogue or warrior/x or something of the sort) is able to play a far larger spectrum of teams with a much higher success rate rather than having to rely on Q'ing against a team that you know is susceptible to your build. But again, this all comes from a hunter, so take it as you will.
Our 5v5 team (ranked 37 last week) got completely decimated by a no-Warrior team last night, 3 games straight.
The team was Shadow Priest, UA 'Lock, SL 'Lock, Mutilate Rogue, Holy Paladin. The sheer precision of their Fears was astounding, even with our Fear Wards, Tremor Totems, and 2x Warriors.
We played FrapS This (Reckoning battlegroup) 2 nights in a row (I'm pretty sure they used to be Slow Roll, who was #1 on our 5v5 for a long time). They ran Full Frost Mage / AP Frost Mage / UA Lock / Shad Priest / Pally or Druid, with 1 mage subbing in and out for an additional SP. When we played them with a pally, we had a winning record against them, but woe to those who play a 4 caster DPS zerg team with a druid. Our rogue (hunt/rogue/pally/elem sham/frost mage) was CC'd 100% of the team.. Cyclone -> Fear -> Sheep in perfect coordination. The druid also could simply through out HoTs, whereas 1 CS on the pally meant one of their players died. It really made me believe 4 caster DPS teams, if done right, are the best setup ATM.
On the issue of 3 healer teams, I think this is somewhat true, but the 3rd "healer" needs to be a shaman who can also nuke. Maybe they are resto spec'd, but in DPS gear, but really I think the best 3rd healer is an elemental shaman. One of the main reasons I think having a shaman that is DPSing (spec'd for it or not) is being able to purge BOP. Considering that many teams have warriors playing the big man up front, being able to keep that warrior DPSing with no interruptions is very important. Plus, an elemental shaman can easily switch to drop some heals (damage+healing gear synergy too).
Taking this subject further, seems that the best core for a 5v5 is Warrior/Holy Paladin/Shaman (not enhance). I'd also probably say that the Warrior/Warrior/Paladin/Paladin/Shaman combo already mentioned is the best 5v5, as well as the most easy to play 5v5 class comp. WF totem is powerful from any spec Shaman, and so is Heroism. Shamans really do make a huge difference on any team.
Final comment, why is nobody suggesting putting a Druid in your lineup to beef it up? /sarcasm
Have you ever tried simply turning off the TV, sitting down with your children, and hitting them?
I recently formed up a 5v5 with some of my in-guild friends. We are primarily raiders, and so when we started it was just for fun, but we've decided to try to play more competitively. Our group is usually:
Each of us typically has ~200 resilience and 10k hp, except for me (FG lock) at around 13.5k unbuffed. Warrior has Deep Thunder and Rogue has Malchazeen.
Our typical strat is to identify their squishiest target and burst them down ASAP. I throw my pet at the target, then CoT on their healers and fear one if I can, and I follow up with shadowburn on main target then assist from there. If there are two healers the druid will lock down one healer while i lock down the other, otherwise he assists on the main target. Generally I focus more on dps when they only have 1 healer, and more on CC when they have 2.
I think our biggest problem is that most teams will have a Pally, so when he throws up BoP almost all our dps gets jacked. Switching targets takes time and the rogue/druid lose combo points. We have the option of switching the Feral druid with a pain/suppression priest (mass dispel would help IMO). We also have another holy pally and an ice mage to play with. The priest and pally are fairly raid geared but lack in pvp gear, while the mage is fairly new to 70 and thus isn't very geared in either respect.
So I guess what I'm looking for is advice on our group composition, specs, and general strategy. Any tips/word of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
Shadowstep is bad, have your Rogue go Mutilate, if he wants as much burst as quickly as possible, then Combat with a pair of Swords or Maces.
Pain Suppression Priests are rather easy to kill, Holy due to Blessed Recovery and Blessed Reslience are far better in the long term.
You need an offensive dispeller also, Resto Shamans work pretty well since they provide Bloodlust and totems, but a Priest is also fine.
Last edited by Shadowed : 06/27/07 at 5:27 PM.
Reason: Bloodlust and totems, oops.
Offensive dispeller is a must, but so is WF to maximise the effectiveness of an MS warrior.
I also STRONGLY suggest you use a Fel Hunter most of the time. An extra cleanse/purge AND spell lock, not to mention the resistances you get, mean that if you're good at micro, I think a FH > FG in 5s, mostly. The best thing about a FG is micro too though - that is using its intercept when targets are trying to kite your melee...
Druid should probably be abusing Cyclone/healing more and DPSing less, I would imagine, too. Make him respec Resto
Our 5v5 team (ranked 37 last week) got completely decimated by a no-Warrior team last night, 3 games straight.
The team was Shadow Priest, UA 'Lock, SL 'Lock, Mutilate Rogue, Holy Paladin. The sheer precision of their Fears was astounding, even with our Fear Wards, Tremor Totems, and 2x Warriors.
GSO, right? I've been watching that with some hope - it's almost the exact setup that one of the euro teams used(they had 2xUA rather than UA/SL) and it seems like it would be fairly effective along with having rather nasty burst if they can get the dots on.
Are they using the rogue mostly as an assist for VP'd Wound or to disrupt a healer?
Yea, it was very fun watching them absolutely dismantle us while we sat there going "how the hell do we counter that? Heh."
I believe the Rogue was mostly locking down our Priest so he couldn't Mana Burn. We had rows of DoTs on everyone and they were very good at knocking down Tremor so everyone's health was melting away. I think the Paladin tried to bubble and Cleanse, but he got hit with a Mass Dispel nearly instantly. All while myself and the Paladin were chain-Feared.
Yea, it was very fun watching them absolutely dismantle us while we sat there going "how the hell do we counter that? Heh."
I believe the Rogue was mostly locking down our Priest so he couldn't Mana Burn. We had rows of DoTs on everyone and they were very good at knocking down Tremor so everyone's health was melting away. I think the Paladin tried to bubble and Cleanse, but he got hit with a Mass Dispel nearly instantly. All while myself and the Paladin were chain-Feared.
I honestly think the best counter to a 4DPS caster team is either an: A) 4 DPS team as well that's more melee-heavy, such as hunter/rogue/elem sham/mage, where you have high burst, bloodlust & CC to take the edge off of some of the damage. It doesn't seem like a traditional team has enough dmg to kill one of their DPS early & especially with a double warlock team, you're going to be eaten alive w/ DoTs. or B) A very complex setup where you manage to position your DPS in the open, but in LOS of your healer who are on the opposite pillar from the other team to avoid silences/dots/fears themselves.
I really feel in 5v5 resto druids require a tri-healer setup for their teams to succeed past 1900-2000 . Their most efficient heals are hots, and hots benefit most with more direct healers around to handle the "oh shit" healing, i.e. paladins and holy light and shamans and healing wave. With that freeing up the druid to focus almost entirely on instant heals and casted CC's the druid gains a sort of "greater than the sum of its parts" synergized utility to the team, rather than being forced to shoulder the burden of direct healing that the druid is bad at (ESPECIALLY under duress). So for your team I suggest you replace the resto druid or add another healer.
Have to agree there, druids really suck at direct healing. Healing touch is way too slow and regrowth takes 2sec to cast while it has like 60% chance to crit for 3K when specced for it. Not enough at all on a MS target. And GCD on hots is a pain in the ass when you also have to try to cyclone people.
Have to agree there, druids really suck at direct healing. Healing touch is way too slow and regrowth takes 2sec to cast while it has like 60% chance to crit for 3K when specced for it. Not enough at all on a MS target. And GCD on hots is a pain in the ass when you also have to try to cyclone people.
Unfortunately this is the truth. A druid cannot replace a pally as main arena healer. We are more a utility class that requires very specific setups to do well. In such a setup when we are buffed to the max with defensive gear though we can do well as we basically bait the other team to go for us, which frees up the priest to mana burn and hopefully the third healer can keep us alive.
Druids do very well in 4 DPS caster instagib teams, as I said earlier. Shapeshift = no sheep, SP = dispell fear, insta-cast HoTs = no silence (long duration at least). They can go bear if they get FF'd and survive long enough to decide the match. They have cyclone to tie up a healer on the other team right off the bat. You really just have to think outside the box with a class that doesn't fit the "traditional" 5v5 and you'll succeed.
We actually started our 5v5 last night and have a setup very much like the 4 caster dps team. We run 2 UA locks, shadow priest, combat rogue, and holy paladin. We ran into very little resistance. We went 25 games before losing a game, and we lost because our paladin fubar'd his interface and didn't get a single heal off. We've got a strong pvp base with 4 of the 5 players getting Netherdrakes last season (everyone but me .)
Our rogue focuses heavily on crowd control (sapping, kicking, gouging, stacking wound poison.) Both the warlocks split up the healers and keep CoT up as well as a felhunter on their target. The only teams we had trouble with were the three healer teams such as double paladin and a shaman.
I also share the feeling the 4 dps caster teams are going to be popular this season, especially since dots are not affected by resilience and we could rip through people easily with 3 dot classes. The best way to combat our team was the 3-man healing team, however not all groups have the luxury. I've got a feeling we will start to see SR stacking in 5's very soon.
The other game we lost, we lost because one of their members was stacking shadow resist and it just happened to be our dps target. By the time we realized he was so heavily stacked, it was too late.
Druids do very well in 4 DPS caster instagib teams, as I said earlier. Shapeshift = no sheep, SP = dispell fear, insta-cast HoTs = no silence (long duration at least). They can go bear if they get FF'd and survive long enough to decide the match. They have cyclone to tie up a healer on the other team right off the bat. You really just have to think outside the box with a class that doesn't fit the "traditional" 5v5 and you'll succeed.
I have heard that before and I don't buy it. In a gib team I would rather have a healer that has a bubble. Resto druids in bear have less armor than holy pallies so that argument is moot. Pallies with BoS can also not be sheeped (yes it can be purged but gib matches should not last that long). HoTs alone don't keep anyone up.
I have also tried a 4 DPS with druid healer setup by neccessity. We were not really equipped to be a full gib team but it was an unmitigated desaster. So unless I see such teams high up on the ladders (after they have stabilized) I will remain skeptical.
We currently have 7 players on our 5v5 team. Our core consists of MS mace warrior, MS axe warrior, Resto Shaman, and Holy Paladin. Our fifth spot rotates between a combat mace rogue, balance druid, and shadow priest.
We've had varying success with each setup but have always struggled against CC heavy teams. The rotating fifth spot is usually the player that gets focused first. If not them then its usually our shaman. BOP really screws us in a lot of fights since our only means to take it down comes from a primary healer that can't always get in range or simply dedicate the time to purge. Good mages seem to be our bane since they can lock down both warriors with novas and sheep. Whenever we try focusing on mages we waste so much time pursuing and dealing with iceblocks and BOP. With one cleanse on the team CC has become a huge problem.
Our rogue has toyed with the idea of gearing up his 70 mage to open more options. Is our biggest weakness just the lack of CC and interrupts? We seem to out-damage almost every team we face by a large margin.
I guess I'm just looking for some pointers from other teams out there that primarily run with two warriors and not much CC. How are you guys dealing with CC heavy teams? What are your primary targets? Any help would be appreciated.
Your running what is called a gimmick team. It's very strong vs some groups but has a very definable hard counter. When you run into your hard counter there is very little you can do other than alter the entire makeup of your team.
Hunters and full frost mages will destroy almost any team with 2+ melee's on it. I really thought I'd see the last of the double warrior team last season but they seem to be making a comeback and our rating has been the beneficiary. Sorry, first time we've hit the #1 spot on our BG and I'm still a bit giddy over it.
I think they're making a comeback because the 2xWarrior 3xpure healer team works fairly well as a counter for the less-coordinated 4DPS teams(the truly good ones will ensure that your healers are chain-CCed and a couple of players go down like a sack of bricks).
Your running what is called a gimmick team. It's very strong vs some groups but has a very definable hard counter. When you run into your hard counter there is very little you can do other than alter the entire makeup of your team.
Hunters and full frost mages will destroy almost any team with 2+ melee's on it. I really thought I'd see the last of the double warrior team last season but they seem to be making a comeback and our rating has been the beneficiary. Sorry, first time we've hit the #1 spot on our BG and I'm still a bit giddy over it.
We're running a rather odd team makeup that varies, one of them is Stormherald Warrior, Mutilate Rogue, DW Enchancement Shaman, Shadow Priest, Holy Paladin. It actually works fairly well (1891 this week, 29 standing last) even against Hunter/Frost Mage teams since our Shaman can just purge BoF and typically doesn't have to deal with range issues.
BoP isn't that bad to deal with as long as you get it off quickly, are you sure your Shaman isn't healing all the time instead of purging when possible?
06/27/07, 12:40 PM
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