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Old 06/28/07, 3:50 AM   #1
Andemoni
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Arena and honor gear on hybrid classes

As I've started to get to the finishing line in collecting my pure healing gear, I've also started to realise the inherent problem in the current honor and arena system when it comes to dealing with gearing up hybrid classes. The issue I'm about to speak of impacts paladins, shamans and druids most of all with priests, warlocks and rogues coming right behind.

The root of the problem is that the cost, let it be honor or arena points, to acquire the gear to do your job effectively is not independent of the class you play. Getting a full honor set or a full arena set involves a lot of effort. The current system is overly taxing on people playing classes which are able to use different types of armor sets or weapons. Currently paladins, druids and shamans are able to wear three different types of armor (healing, spell damage and melee). Warlocks require two sets to play all their specs effectively (pure spell damage and a mix of spell damage and spell crit), as do priests (healing and spell damage). Rogues require three different types of weapons (daggers, swords and maces) if they choose to try out another type of spec. Mages, hunters and warriors are unaffected by this problem.

So, what could be done to make gearing up the problematic classes easier? My solution would be as follows.

Instead of buying items from a season directly, you would unlock an item slot. That's right, you would use your honor or arena points to unlock a specific item slot, let's say the main hand weapon slot. The cost to unlock a slot would be dependant on the class played, as rogues, for instance, would be able to use three different types of main hand items effectively (melee sword, mace and dagger). The overall cost to unlock all slots for all classes would still remain the same across the board, so the effort required to gear up your character would not be influenced by the class you play. After a slot is unlocked, you would be able to attain any number of items for that slot from the vendor without an additional price. Hoarding more than you need would not be in any way beneficial, as honor and arena rewards cannot be sold to a vendor or disenchanted.

The benefit of this system would be to make the arena playing field more leveled in terms of gear; currently the people in high-rated teams will receive a more varied gear, with top rogues being able to pick up any weapons if they so desire. This change would also bring more activity to the enchanting and jewelcrafting businesses, as the amount of items that need gems and enchants would grow. Also, this would benefit all the aforementioned classes in terms of gear diversity. For instance, rogues could have two different off-hand weapons of the same types with different enchants (mongoose or weapon chain) depending on the match-up at hand.

The current system, in my opinion, only endorses playing the most effective spec for your class. It does not promote testing out different specs, since the effort required to gear up your character from, for example, a holy-specced paladin to a retribution one is, quite frankly, insane. The same goes for all the other classes that have specs that require specialised gear. There is just no reasonable explanation why some classes would be forced to gear up their characters two or even three times more than others. Promoting diversity is what would make arenas more exciting, and you would see more "off-specs" playing as the season evolves. I know I'd try out retribution in a heartbeat. I'm quite certain the same goes for all the shamans, druids and priests as well, the ones who would like to see how effective they can be with a different spec without having to exert the insane effort required to gear up their character twice, or in the worst case, thrice.

To those that would say "but this means that the players of class x will receive more epics for their effort than I do", I can only respond that it is, in no way conceivable, away from your gaming experience. They would still have to grind the same amount of honor as you. They would still have to save up their arena points to unlock those slots. They will still have to pay for their respecs. It does not diminish your playing experience, but on the contrary, gives it more depth. Would you not love to see more fluffy moonkins running around in the arenas? Would you not love to laugh at all the retribution paladins trying to mow you down with their massive swords, yet marginal damage? Would you not cuddle up against that dual-wielding enhancement shaman that, until recently, was a submissive healbot? Diversity, embrace it!

Making arenas a more varied, interesting and most of all fun experience is for the benefit of all. Speak out and express your opinion.

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Old 06/28/07, 4:07 AM   #2
Schneeb
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
<SIN>
Neptulon (EU)
Theres absolutely nothing forcing you to spend honour on healing upgrades, the same cant be said for arena's but they are competative and finite when it comes to reward/week. If your role in your arena team is dps, thy buy the dps items - sure an arena team with hybrid dps may not be as successful but thats called balance.

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Old 06/28/07, 4:30 AM   #3
Randor
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Andemoni View Post
Currently paladins, druids and shamans are able to wear three different types of armor (healing, spell damage and melee). Warlocks require two sets to play all their specs effectively (pure spell damage and a mix of spell
This is true.

Originally Posted by Andemoni View Post
Warlocks require two sets to play all their specs effectively (pure spell damage and a mix of spell damage and spell crit), as do priests (healing and spell damage). Rogues require three different types of weapons (daggers, swords and maces).
Rogues and warlocks are not a hybrid class in any aspect. Don't confuse different specs with what a hybrid is.

Originally Posted by Andemoni View Post
Mages, hunters and warriors are unaffected by this problem.
That is a joke? Warriors not a hybrid class? Warriors don't tank as well as dps? That's laughable.

Get the gear you want/need and enchant it and gem it to fit your needs. You don't need to gear up for every possible spec under the sun unless you choose to do. And while itemization across WoW could use some refining, I find your "solution" as far off the mark as your original assumptions were.

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Old 06/28/07, 4:33 AM   #4
Andemoni
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Almost forgot to add that PvE-oriented people should propably not read or comment on this thread. I'll also give you a slight hint why warriors aren't listed to suffer from this same problem: why did I list paladins having only three types of armor sets, instead of four?

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Old 06/28/07, 4:33 AM   #5
Zorac
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warrior
 
Magtheridon (EU)
I do belive that you have a point here, its a good suggestion. Although I havent played arena past 2100k raiting so I cant comment wether there are only main stream speccs there, but I do know that I face retri paladins/moonkins/enchantment shamans quite alot. And they are quite alot more dangerous than you might think, it could ofc just be a case of me underestimating them.

I do know of a team 3on3 team in my battle group who went with the odd composition of, retri paladin/enchantment shaman/shadow priest, and they were very successfull and even obtained a netherdrake.

Even so if teams would have the opportunity I belive that the top teams would still be consisting of the same group setups, simply because its the most effective.

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Old 06/28/07, 7:32 AM   #6
Nausicca
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Khadgar (EU)
This idea has good pve applications too, it would be great for an armour token to 'unlock' an armour slot so you could purchase at a small cost the whole range of armours to go in that slot, it would sure help pure healing classes gear for off-specs/grinding/pvp fun.

Have love, will travel.

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Old 06/28/07, 7:43 AM   #7
DarKNecross
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Greymane
There's actually a board for PvP related discussions here. I think this discussion would be more suited there.
As for the arguments discussed here, the problem i see with it is you're taking away the individuality from the game. You don't see mages collecting +Fire damage gear when they aspire to be frost. You shouldn't be picking up +Healing gear if you want to spec Retribution. From a balance point of view, I still remain unconvinced. Doing the same honor grind for 3 times the gear as someone else isn't really fair, regardless of if you think a paladin getting 3 items doesn't subtract from your gameplay when you get one. If I got paid 3 times the amount for doing the same job as someone else, that would be unfair. I don't really see how this is different.

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Old 06/28/07, 7:54 AM   #8
Gearshifter
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
There's actually a board for PvP related discussions here. I think this discussion would be more suited there.
As for the arguments discussed here, the problem i see with it is you're taking away the individuality from the game. You don't see mages collecting +Fire damage gear when they aspire to be frost. You shouldn't be picking up +Healing gear if you want to spec Retribution. From a balance point of view, I still remain unconvinced. Doing the same honor grind for 3 times the gear as someone else isn't really fair, regardless of if you think a paladin getting 3 items doesn't subtract from your gameplay when you get one. If I got paid 3 times the amount for doing the same job as someone else, that would be unfair. I don't really see how this is different.
Then again, you do not benefit three times as much just be course you get to buy three types of items, as you will only be able to wear one set anyways (duh... I know).

On the other hand I'm not so sure what to think about this. I would love to see this added to the PvE part of the game though, so healers also will get some items suitable for grinding.

But I guess if this change was to be implented, which I doubt it ever will, it will be added to both apects of the game.

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Old 06/28/07, 9:11 AM   #9
Lavode
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
as a practical matter this is a nonissue - people run arenas with as fixed teams as they can manage, and if your job in that team is EG: dps/feral obnoxtiousness, you will be buying, and wearing dragonhide at all times in the arena. Noone willingly runs an arena team where the priest is healing one week and dps the next, as that would be just silly. The only actual problem that can arise is stuff like a the guild tanks getting together on one day/week and having the warriors spec MS and the ferals resto to farm up some arena points and the points then being spent on gear they never ever use in the arena. But thats not really a very serious arena team anyways, no?

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Old 06/28/07, 11:37 AM   #10
tristantio
Piston Honda
 
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Human Warlock
 
Twisting Nether
As has been mentioned, this is primarily a bad idea simply because it removes the individual impact spec and gear choices have.

As it is, there are more or less two types of hybrid players as well, those who spec into a certain role and stick with it, doing whatever they can to become the best at that role, and those who try to be mediocre in all the various roles. My paladin tries to be mediocre in all of them (I've got sets of healing, tanking, spell damage, and ret gear, however I'm nowhere near as efficient as a player who has stuck with one spec and completely geared and advanced his character for that aspect of the game).

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Old 06/28/07, 1:34 PM   #11
Kinz
Haels
 
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Undead Priest
 
Shadowsong
Personally I'd like to just see an 1 for 1 switch at the end of season for the same item of that season, be it dps to healing or vice versa (In pally/druid case 1 of 3), so season 1 gear for season 1 gear, just to be clear. Make it destroy gems currently in it so there is a cost.

Reason for this is due to people chaging teams at the end of the season, last season I was Holy/Disc PvP healing, this season I am full shadow and part of the dps section of the 5v5, so I have 4 pieces of Season 1 healing and 1 piece season 2 dps. Advantage here is I could swap my old healing for some old Shadow sets.

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Old 06/28/07, 1:49 PM   #12
tristantio
Piston Honda
 
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Human Warlock
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by Kinz View Post
Personally I'd like to just see an 1 for 1 switch at the end of season for the same item of that season, be it dps to healing or vice versa (In pally/druid case 1 of 3), so season 1 gear for season 1 gear, just to be clear. Make it destroy gems currently in it so there is a cost.

Reason for this is due to people chaging teams at the end of the season, last season I was Holy/Disc PvP healing, this season I am full shadow and part of the dps section of the 5v5, so I have 4 pieces of Season 1 healing and 1 piece season 2 dps. Advantage here is I could swap my old healing for some old Shadow sets.
While that's convenient for you and other players changing their spec entirely, it removes any sort of permanence your purchase choices have.

Would it make sense for a warrior to be able to swap back and forth from tanking tier 4/5/6 to DPS tier 4/5/6 with no repercussions?

What it seems like you're saying is that you want to be able to just have free gear handed to you for whatever spec you happen to take. The fact is being a hybrid, you could have chosen the +damage AND healing set when initially gearing up in arena gear, but you gave up the benefit it would have to your damage stats in favor of even more powerful healing gear. It's the price you pay for excelling in healing (you're behind the curve when you switch to dps). You could have went with the multi-hybrid gear (damage/healing) from the start and not excelled as much at healing, but be ahead the curve when switching to dps.

On my paladin I've been getting the +damage/healing arena gear for this exact reason, as opposed to going for the full +healing.

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Old 06/28/07, 2:12 PM   #13
Zarick
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Kilrogg
Warriors might not tank in the arena, but they still have weapon specs just the same as a rogue. In reality, this applies to just about every class. If you were going to make this change, don't you think mages and warlocks would want new gear with specialized elemental damage on it?

I understand that people feel the grind is quite tough for this gear but it is meant to be for the arena. You can use it outside an arena too but it should match what you do in the arena. Most people have a specific role in the arena as was mentioned previously.

It doesn't seem fair to me to allow people to buy up complete sets for each role you can play. In fact, given that you can quickly leave combat, I feel it might give a little too much power to a hybrid since they could switch gear during a fight and suddenly have great gear for a different role.

If you're raiding, it is the same issue. Most guilds are using a DKP system and you have to pick and choose what you get. Why should the arena hand out so much extra gear?

I also think that some talent spec's are less popular due to how well they work in the arena at the different team sizes and not because they can't get the gear. Shadow priests are in lots of well-rated 2v2 and 3v3 teams but you see less of them in the 5v5 teams. Some classes and talent specs are better in different situations.

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Old 06/28/07, 2:12 PM   #14
Kinz
Haels
 
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Undead Priest
 
Shadowsong
Originally Posted by tristantio View Post
While that's convenient for you and other players changing their spec entirely, it removes any sort of permanence your purchase choices have.
Did you miss the part where I said at the end or start of the season? I fail to see how forcing a player to stick to the gear for 2-3 months is removing the permanence of the gear, and removing the gems is a hefty cost.

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Old 06/28/07, 4:18 PM   #15
tristantio
Piston Honda
 
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Human Warlock
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by Kinz View Post
Did you miss the part where I said at the end or start of the season? I fail to see how forcing a player to stick to the gear for 2-3 months is removing the permanence of the gear, and removing the gems is a hefty cost.
You already got your use out of the gear, there is no solid reason that the one time purchase should mean you're set for life. The main portion of WoW consists of gear collecting.

If this were implemented, where should it stop? Every 3 months would all players be given the option to trade their PvE Tier gear for a different set for free? It makes no sense.

A 3 month time is not permanence. Permanent implies final and unchanging, a 3 month time is temporary.

As I mentioned in my previous post, you got the benefit of having the extremely good healing gear, instead of the hybrid gear, yet now you change your spec and want the other gear to come free of charge?

In PvE if an item drops for a certain slot, it doesn't mean you're set for life for that slot, it means that you have that particular item. The difference here is you get to choose what you fill that slot with initially, it's no one's fault but your own if you chose poorly.

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