toth

This build doesn't seem very good to me. First, on the Discipline side, you would have only one point in absolution. Mass dispel is an expensive spell and the extra 10% off for 2 points is worth it. Second, I feel that the 6 points in Meditation, Divine Spirit, and Improved Divine Spirit are wasted in PvP. Arena gear doesn't have any spirit on it, therefore the points in Meditation are wasted because the mana you can regen while casting won't be enough to justify three talent points. The same goes with Improved Divine Spirit. These points are much better off in talents like Absolution, Mental Strength, and Power Infusion. The points in reflective shield can be good or bad depending on who you ask, but those are more personal choice. It's also my personal opinion that points in Improved Fortitude are not worth it. Two talent points for 230hp? And 230hp that is likely to get dispelled at that.

On the holy side, I would think points in renew would make sense over Holy Specialization. The extra (guaranteed) 15% healing on renew seems more useful than increasing the crit chance of ProM and Flash Heal by 3%. I think it also makes sense to toss a point in blessed recovery to have it as buff fodder while you're being focused.

 

Psilux

I feel that if you are chain casting mass dispel, you are just wasting mana. I try to target a paly's bubble, blessing of protection, or something else equally irritating. Usually it will take one or two casts of mass dispel to get it all off. I try to make sure that the most amount of ppl are targetted during this, since the mass dispel mechanic will specifically target these irritating buffs first.

You may be right about the divine spirit or imp: DS, but still, in straight pvp gear, I do have a significant amount of regen from spirit. I wish there was a flat out mp5 talent or something to choose, but this is what I am left with. Considering that arena gear doesn't include a ton of regen, I'm taking all I can get out of it. It may be something me to reconsider, but it also serves as a buffer for other buffs in dispel wars. Power infusion just seems like a waste of points considering it can be dispelled, and it only affects one person. I have a hard time justifying 5/5 mental strength, to gain the power infusion buff. Considering 5/5 mental strength is about 900 mana (cost of an extra mass dispel). I just don't see that as worth the price I pay for losing reflective shield.

I think you are undervaluing the talent on this one. The 4 piece arena set reduces the Weakened state debuff by 2 seconds. I'm simply talenting into that bonus. Reflective shield + improved PW: S + 4piece arena set bonus is quite a big buff. By using this power, it keeps warriors from gaining rage on me (arguably one of the hardest classes for us to actually fight), keeps me from getting spell pushback (if I need to throw a flash or mass dispel), and allows me to throw it around on someone else getting their head bashed in too.

Meh, you could be right on this one, but not getting imp fort just seems wrong to me. Anything that could up my teams HP = ups their survivability. While buffs do get dispelled, it's no guarantee that *THIS* one gets dispelled. If another disc priest decides he wants all of our buffs gone, he's hammering through 5-6 buffs per person, and buffs on pets too (we have two pets, each get full buffs). This is where DS/imp: DS plays a role as a buffer for dispels (albeit, does look much like a waste of 3 decent talent points). Now you should consider what that imp: fort does for the whole team. +21 stamina for everyone on my 5v5 team means you gave them an average of 230 hp each. That really translates to a potential for 1500 damage the other team has to burn through (we have two pets who get it also). I think that is considerable enough to warrant the talent spec in the second tier of the disc tree.

You were the one just hyping about dispels, and you suggest to talent into a spell that could get dispelled before even providing full healing? A flash heal will heal for the same amount as the entire course of the renew. Seems more practical to just throw up a flash instead, considering that the flash heal is actually cheaper for mana usage. The 5% extra crit comes into play when I'm not being focused down, I can toss up heals that may crit. A greater heal crit is by far, more game breaking than a single renew that heals for an extra 15% more, in my opinion.

My experiences with Blessed Recovery have been less than favorable. I would consider imp:renew over this talent. By far, not something I would consider spending talent points in, for where it is that far up the holy tree. Healing 30 hp a sec for 6 secs, while I am being bursted down doesn't seem a reliable way to stay alive. Especially since if I am being focused down, it will be overwrit everytime someone scored a critical on me. I'd rather use a reflective shield, pain supression, fear, trinket, BOP, BOF, and a hunter icetrap to kite ppl through.

 

envee

I guess I’ll try to defend my arena spec even though it’s still in its infant stages and by no means complete.

I think the most important thing to keep in mind here is that each battle group is going to generally have the same people on top from season to season. Our battle group is by no means competitive, but I assume that even in other battle groups once you’re passed a ~2k rating you’re frequently going up against the same teams on a weekly basis. While most of these teams are going to switch up a player or two at certain points, most of the time the overall group composition is going to remain relatively the same.What this translates to, on our battle group at least, is that you’re eventually going to learn how all of your rival teams play, and then adapt accordingly. That being said, I’ll try to justify some of my talent decisions.

While you state that Meditation, Divine Spirit, and Imp spirit, and Imp fort have a minimal benefit at best, on our battle group, the teams are really, really, embarrassing and I would say that my buffs get dispelled at most 15% of the overall games.

Also, in my personal experience our games pan out similar to this (we run me, war, lock, ele, pally): Game starts. We figure out if we’ve played this team before, and who we’re going to focus. Once the teams engage in combat, our elemental shaman is usually the first to get focused. If it’s not him, it’s me. Either way, though, I usually have some sort of nuisance on me as well to keep me from burning and healing as much as I would otherwise be able to.

I’m not sure what the ratio of 4dps teams is to other set ups on most servers, but on ours I would say a vast majority (at least in the upper brackets) are 4dps teams. The added benefit from imp renew, especially in capped resil gear and nerfed +heal, isn’t going to account for much on someone that is getting focused. PS helps for a bit unless the pally on the other team has a quick trigger finger, but majority of the time in arenas I’m helping spam heal the focused target and casting shield/mending in-between.

I used to run with PI, but the problem with that again is that if I was going to be using it, it’d be on our ele shaman since our lock is sl/sl. Since he’s getting focused off the bat most of the time I don’t really see a huge benefit to having it. I’d much rather have full buffs on the entire raid since they’re usually not getting dispelled because the other teams blow most of the time, and I’d rather maximize our survivability.

I agree on the absolution point. I usually switch up the amount of points in that from week to week, though.

My choices in crit over renew stem from my above arguments as well. If I’m going to be spamming heals on focused targets against 4 dps teams, I may as well up my crit chance since my +heal is disgusting in arena gear. Personally, I’ve never been a fan of blessed recovery. It’s not going to keep me alive if I’m getting focused, and If I only have a war or rogue on me I can live pretty long with the new focused will, a normal renew, shields and mending’s, health stone, arena trinket to heal and get rid of snares, and the occasional spot heal when needed.

I even recall I time where I blanked out in Blades Edge arena, we were fighting near their spawn point and I had a warrior on me and noticed that I forgot to pick up my health stone and literally kited the warrior all the way back to our spawn point, picked up a health stone and used it, and came all the way back to the group. Yes, it’s obvious that the warrior was crap, but unfortunately (thankfully?) that’s the caliber of player we have in the upper brackets.

Maybe it’s not the most efficient spec that’s out there, but like I said, it’s still in its infancy and so far it’s worked to our benefit. It’s not for everyone, but it’s certainly not cookie cutter, it makes me feel unique, it’s fun as all hell to play for me, and most of all it’s at the very least contributing to us winning games in some fashion or another.

My team arenas modestly. 10-15 games a week at most since college and raiding is exhausting enough, and we still ended last season at 2200. That’s not too shabby for the amount of time we dedicate to it (1.5 hours after Heroes each week).

I guess what I’m trying to argue in the end is that while certain specs are certainly better on paper, you’re going to always have to adapt to your environment and other teams. I’ve evolved from the standard BR spec to this, and I’ll change it again if other teams adapt to us. While my spec isn’t the most efficient by any means, I think arenas is one of those aspects of the game where everything is so dynamic that it’s a waste trying to min/max everything on spreadsheets. I think it’s more important to experience and experiment to cover the most common case, rather than generalize and theory-craft for the most optimal and best case scenario which may happen, but hasn't really yet for me at least.

Sometimes I wish everyone wasn't pigeon holed into certain specs for arenas, but I realize the logistics of making alternate pvp specs grows exponentially with each one, and makes it nearly impossible to implement fairly after 1 or 2.

Sorry if some of this isn’t exactly coherent, I’m trying to study for finals at the same time.

 

Benjamin

Even if you are undergeared, under no circumstances is Enlightenment going to provide better survivability than Focused Will, period. Telling anyone, regardless of gear level, that there's any sense at all in speccing more than 30 points into disc and not take Focused Will is about as sensible as telling as telling a Warrior to spec more than 30 points into Arms, but skip MS.

I pity anyone that would take such totally senseless advice.

 

Psilux

While Envee takes a very subjective approach, I still think some of his experience is valid for the argument.

Also, to the poster above (Benjamin), the quote you listed speaks of blessed resilience, not enlightenment. I would agree with you that if you decided to go past 30 in disc, you should take Focused Will, but enlightenment may not necessarily be quite as manditory as some of the other talents in the tree. On the other hand, if someone was doing a full pain supression build, I would argue that there is no other talent that provides that much of a stat increase. Definitely something worthy to consider, since the int and stam benefit you at the beginning of the match, while the spirit benefits you during the match with regeneration. In my opinion, I certainly would not pass that talent up, but I may not go 5/5 in it if I was doing a straight 41 disc build (hence the reason my build includes 44/17/0).

 

Rej

Toth was just providing advice based on what many priests encounter. Certain specific teams and situations (such as yours) might warrant different builds or allow for greater flexibility, but he was providing sound advice for many situations. That's the kind of advice I'd seek if I was just starting out and looking for a baseline set of ideas to follow. Some responses to earlier ideas:

Regular Dispel is frequently used, yet also expensive - it's worthwhile to reduce the mana cost given how powerful it is.

Regen is good, but that's a lot of points that could be spent elsewhere. If it makes that big an impact in your team, better to sacrifice some gem slots with mp5 boosters.

PI is more for teams that make use of burst damage to force opponents into a defensive position, or to kill someone quickly. Mental Strength is very useful, as priests have terrible efficiency and costly spells. It's unlikely that you can run off and rely on natural regen long enough to save yourself when you go OOM. Having a 900 mana buffer can make a big difference in tight mana games when you can't find opportunities to drink.

It's not bad, but 5 talents points is quite a lot for a very modest amount of damage. One of the biggest complaints about it was that damage-sensitive CC can be broken by this (poly on a warrior that has a Bleed effect on your shield will not go well). So the talent can be a negative in some teams.

Definitely nice to have, but there are other talents at the same level with potent returns. It's the same idea behind spending 4-6 points on natural regen: nice to have, but other talents can make a bigger impact (and might not be replaceable with gems). Greater stamina is burst protection - if you have enough of it, stacking more isn't a great investment.

Flash Heal cheaper than Renew? First, Renew is affected by talents that reduce mana cost. Second, it gains a much larger ratio of your +Heal. Third, it can be cast on the run, while kiting *out of LOS of dispellers* and ranged attackers, without risk of a counterspell or interrupt. The two are both important spells, useful in different situations. Adding crit is nice, but again it's 5 points that would probably be more potent in Healing Focus and a stronger Renew.

BRecovery was never meant to be a stand-alone talent. Combined with BResilience and Martyrdom, it was considered a basic trinity for crit protection. When a Shaman can macro a single button to do an instant-cast, guaranteed-crit, damage-enhanced nuke that blasts for almost 4000 damage, you'll be glad for 6 seconds of being crit-free and pushback-free, as well as healing 1000 damage back in that period (no overwrites with the Blessed Resilience proc). With Disc specs, it's mostly a single-point talent that acts as a dispel buffer.

 

envee

I thought Brecovery and Bresil couldn't proc at the same time, so getting both would be basically useless since it would choose one or the other?

 

Thorongil

This is not true. The only things mass dispell targets first, are immunities to dispell effects. Namely DivineShield and IceBlock, but not BoP, BoF or whatever you may want to take off the target. Mass dispell has no inherent mechanic that makes it target "irritating buffs" as you state it thus it´s just a waste of mana to use it for anything but DS/IB on a single target.

 

Eugenicist

I've been slaughtered quite a few times recently (specifically in 2v2 & 3v3) by shaman+warrior combo. What I think is tearing me up goes like this. Warrior focuses me and shaman purge spams me. My buffs are gone and the shaman pops bloodlust/heroism, drops a WF totem, continues to purge spam me, then death by warrior with a big fat weapon.

Here's what I attempt to do although still unsuccessfully, perhaps because I'm not cycling my spells in the correct order.

I go into the match with as many buffs up as possible: P:shield, renew, fade, abolish disease, feedback, ProM, fort, spirit, shadow protection, inner fire. I remove the few earth shield from the shaman and destroy the tremor & WF totems, meanwhile the shaman purge spams me and I attempt to LoS the shaman until I end up running into the warrior and become spamstrung. I'm already taking heavy damage because my main defenses (P:Shield, renew, prom, focused will) are all being purged. I begin to rely on flash heal (knowing it will be pummeled/earthshocked). Although I've already destroyed the WF totem, it has no CD so it is easily popped back up. Shaman pops heroism & I now stop flash healing to dispel the heroism. I pop pain suppression, PI, instant heal, battlemaster trinket...but PS is removed quite easily once my other buffs are gone, and PI+desperate prayer is hardly anything with MS up, and the battle master trinket only helps keep me out of execute range for a few very short seconds. IF I'm not already dead, I will probably be very dead soon because inevitably windfury procs at least once in this time and it hurts with no defenses to help.

In an effort to regain some buff fodder for the purge spam, I've hotkeyed fort rank 1 & renew rank 1 to spam while the shaman purge spams me. However, spending the GCD on these rank 1 spells isn't exactly increasing my defenses, its just keeping the shaman busy (maybe if he's persistent with his purges - most shamans have been). Even with this tactic I'm still at a loss because it doesn't seem to be working =). Any suggestions on this topic would be great, and here are some things that I've thought of but haven't quite nailed down the theory crafting.

Perhaps it would be better to pop pain suppression at the beginning of the encounter in order to prolong the uptime of my initial buffs.
Destroying WF & tremor totems is slightly more difficult than anticipated in my encounters, even when i have them macro'd for easy targetting...
Perhaps fort & renew rank 1 aren't the best buff fodder, though I've stayed away from P:Shield rank 1 b/c it will stick me with weakened soul.
Perhaps the battlemaster trinket is better used when I'm at full hp and just about to be focused, rather than waiting until a low HP situation.

 

Xiv

Its pretty much an anti-team cause of purge + poison cleansing. Things you can try in 2v2;

- Have your rogue sap/stunlock the shaman. Kite the warrior as much as possible (hard, ye I know, try fearing for 1/2 second extra time); Mind Control the warrior while your teammate keeps the shaman buisy. If the warrior pummels MC you can just heal. If MC succeeds its 10 seconds gg, let him jump down, move him out of LoS etc. Try Mana burning the shaman.
- CC the shaman and kill the warrior; Sap, Fear (destroy tremor), Blind (destroy poison cleansing). Rogue shuts down the warrior while dpsing, as good as he can. And you assist with killing the warrior (PI).

 

Mearis

I swiitched to holy/disc just this season, since it offers a lot more flexibility in what partners you can have. The key against shaman/warrior teams is that you absolutely cannot afford the shaman to get LoS on you. Your partner needs to pressure the shaman heavily. After that, use corners to kite the warrior to your advantage - if they catch you out in the open you are dead and there is absolutely nothing you can do.

 

• caladein

They are not mutually exclusive.

 

Thorongil

Note that blind is physical since 2.3 so you have at least one reliable CC against a Shaman-team.

 

Benjamin

The post I'm responding to is here: Surviving as a Priest, and is specifically suggesting to take points OUT of Focused Will to put them IN to Enlightenment. I agree that enlightenment is a decent choice if you're lacking in gear, but you should be taking it in addition to Focused Will[/b], not instead of it.

I'd still like to see a buff to Enlightenment though, for being a 35-40 point talent, it's still extremely weak. Even for a priest with 800 Stamina, it's only providing an extra 400 hp. I think it would be a lot more popular if it was simply a 2/4/6/8/10% Stamina boost, as the benefits of 5% extra intellect and spirit are pretty marginal for a PvP spec, which is what deep disc is right now.

 

Thorongil

I wouldn´t say, that the int- and stamina-buff is marginal. Int is far more important in arena than in PvE-content and mana-regeneration has also become a very important stat in PvP recently. So I´d say the talent is quite okay, given the fact that spirit is not worthless with the 30 %-meditation and taking into account that priest-pvp-gear badly lacks mana-reg but instead totally focuses on survivability (a lot of itemization points in armor, stamina and raw healpower).

 

Sindrath

So all that said and done, the spec I decided on being rubbished, does anyone have any suggestions for Green geared Priests? I feel I'm doing ok with what I've specced... but I accept I get burnt down easy and can't heal others damage simply because of my gear... but I'm open to improvement on the spec.

 

Benjamin

I'm logged in my PvE shadow gear, but here's a friend of mine who's wearing S2/S3 PvP gear on the armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Because the PvP gear doesn't have spirit, he has only 151 -- Enlightenment would provide only a paltry +7 spirit. He has 460 Intellect, so Enlightenment would give +23 intellect -- 345 mana normally, 379 mana with +mana disc talents -- still not even enough to be able to cast a single extra renew.

The talent looks good when you mouse over it, but when you figure out exactly what benefits you're getting, it's not too appealing. Percentage-based modifiers are good for maxing out stats that you're stacking, but they're quite poor for trying to cover for stats you're missing on gear.

With the talent as it is now, he'd get about 390 HP, 380 mana, and +7 spirit. I still think that changing it to a straight +10% stamina talent, making it ~800 HP without the extra mana or spirit, would be far more appealing, though still underwhelming for such a deep talent -- several other classes have similar stamina boosts at positions much higher in the tree.

 

Kalitse

I think you have a good spec to start with there. There are a couple things that I would change, but I think you have the basic idea of how to spec for your current situation.

I agree with Benjamin on Enlightenment, especially if you're wearing greens. The talent gets better with better gear but it still lacks 'bang for the buck'. One of your goals is going to be grinding the BGs for the honor pieces and it can be really annoying as a non-shadow priest. So with that in mind you may want to focus on talents that will help you more in BGs than arena at first until you get to around 10k hp and 300 resilience. At that point you can be far more competitive.

Reflective shield is good in BGs and in your Arena make-up too. Fear is going to be your primary CC and DoTs don't break fear as often as burst damage. Not to mention rogues hate it

Survivability is important for the role we (I play on the exact same 5v5 team) offer to our 5s team so I would also suggest going for the 2 piece Mooncloth set bonus, then the 2 piece Satin bonus for the extra resilience. Gem for resilience and stamina.

As for Add-ons;
Get Proximo, a set of unit frames that includes a focus window and I use PoMTracker to maximize the use of my PoM. There are other Add-ons that are useful, but the most important are the ones that let you know who's targeting who and who's casting what. I also use Decursive to be able to defensively dispel and I use Xpel unit frames (I do