If you were doing bgs exactly how you're geared and specced in your armory, I would imagine it wasn't particularly fun. Priests scale with gear and our talents are critical. Paladins and Shamans are more inherently durable and druids are mobile. We're neither, so we make up for it with gear and talents.
That said, I get the feeling that priests will probably have more luck during the first part of S5 as shadow instead of holy or disc. Without the resilience to back you up, healing priests remains squishy and don't have the survivability to be able to play offensively, which is our strength as a healer anyway. Starting the season as shadow until your resil goes up allows you to join a burst team and get some points under your belt as well as allowing you to have some fun in BGs instead of having to follow around PUG DPS (unless you're lucky enough to have guild premades).
As to personal survivability, I've been subjected to a lot of ganking attempts as I level (and I level slowly), and I've found my survivability in S1 PvP gear and disc specced is reasonable even against (solitary) level 80s, barring a significant amount of raid gear. Survivability in this case is "survive to the second fear, mount and run".
Level 71-79 BGs so far have been fine. I'm sure our survivability drops precipitously at 80 against any sort of an epic weapon, but we're always a bit squishy at the beginning.
DKs are caster killers. You're going to be relying on your partner to be able to do anything against them (assuming you arena).
For disc, I actually find that a lot of the later disc talents are avoidable. DA isn't really worth it unless you really stack crit, and it's the only crit-reliant talent disc has, making is expendable.
Grace is meh for what it does. Considering you need to land 3 Flash Heals on yourself to get it up and running (almost impossible most of the time) means it does little for self-preservation, and while it's reasonable on your partner, 3% DR and 6% healing is nothing to really shine about considering the other options in the tree.
Renewed Hope adds to your crit, which is ok. If you're already stacking crit with HS, DA, Inspiration for dispel fodder and this, along with a significant investment in crit on your gear then it can become useful, but I prefer to stack something more controllable and reliable like haste, which benefits all spells, lowers your GCD and stacks with every talent we've got.
That's just my input, however.
I'm probably leaning towards a spec like this when I finally hit 80 and get some gear together. We'll see. My ultimate goal is to play disc, I just don't know if that's most expeditious at the beginning of the first arena season.
Last edited by Merple : 12/04/08 at 4:04 PM.
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Sorry I didn't specify. I was shadow when I was pvping. I was using some of my old level 70 season 3 and season 4 gear with some random blues. So I had about 15k hp with fort and around 200-300 resil. Seemed like any death knight, not even the geared ones, were just wrecking me. Pws was gone in two seconds and I was at 40% health and running for my life.
I was just trying to get a feel on priest pvp, guess it is still too early.
Any thoughts on the potential to pick up Pain Supression and Silence in some variation of 50/0/21? That was the main opportunity cost for trispec back at 70 - PS or Silence but not both. Now it's possible to pick them both up. Of course a 59/12/0 build is going to be the safe option in terms of healing/survivability but I've always held extended CC trains in high esteem. Something like this could be effective again in Priest/Rogue or MRP.
Penance is the best Disc Spell there is. Trading it for Silence is really not worth it.
I disagree strongly with not taking Aegis for PvP. Aegis boosts output, mana regen and efficiency (when the finally fix it at least). With Aegis crit stacking is viable precisely because it's then a better stat than haste, mp5 or spirit.
I would also not take Enlightenment, Absolution or Imp Mana Burn.
Currently Mana Burn is a bit of a joke. In the last week of BGs I've used it once. And I regretted it. Of course I can't speak for arena yet, but I doubt it'll be different.
Absolution isn't worth it either. Too many classes have dispel resistances. Offensive dispelling is in most cases a huge waste of mana. Defensive dispelling fails too often. In most cases it's cheaper to heal through dots than to dispel them as well.
Grace is nice. It's pretty much as good as Spiritual Healing, and nobody would pass that up. You're not going to keep yourself alive without cast-time spells at the moment. This may change with increasing gear levels though. But where Grace really shines is in keeping others alive. In Penance stacks the effect up completely. It saves lifes.
Penance is the best Disc Spell there is. Trading it for Silence is really not worth it.
I disagree strongly with not taking Aegis for PvP. Aegis boosts output, mana regen and efficiency (when the finally fix it at least). With Aegis crit stacking is viable precisely because it's then a better stat than haste, mp5 or spirit.
I would also not take Enlightenment, Absolution or Imp Mana Burn.
Currently Mana Burn is a bit of a joke. In the last week of BGs I've used it once. And I regretted it. Of course I can't speak for arena yet, but I doubt it'll be different.
Absolution isn't worth it either. Too many classes have dispel resistances. Offensive dispelling is in most cases a huge waste of mana. Defensive dispelling fails too often. In most cases it's cheaper to heal through dots than to dispel them as well.
Grace is nice. It's pretty much as good as Spiritual Healing, and nobody would pass that up. You're not going to keep yourself alive without cast-time spells at the moment. This may change with increasing gear levels though. But where Grace really shines is in keeping others alive. In Penance stacks the effect up completely. It saves lifes.
I just don't feel like the trade offs in order to get DA (and the crit talents that support it) are worth it.
You lose 265 spirit by choosing the crit set to support DA (will grants 4.35% crit) .
Also, in order to get 5/5 holy specialization + renewed hope to support DA, in addition to getting DA, you must give up a total of 7 points from the following, depending on what you chose to talent:
-borrowed time
-improved healing
-rapture
-aspiration
-rapture
-grace
-pain suppression
-penance
To give an example of what this would reasonably work out to, a disc spec without focus
on da would be able to get the following deep-tree talents.
- 5/5 rapture
- 2/2 aspiration
- 2/2 grace
- pain supression
- 5/5 borrowed time
- penance
And an additional 2 points to put where you saw fit, higher in the tree (or into holy, to get searing light for instance)
While a deep disc spec with focus on da would be able to get the following deep-tree
This trade off might be worthwhile if what you gained was very strong. However, since divine aegis not only doesn't stack, but overwrites itself, it is actually a fairly weak talent and is by no means (in my opinion) worthy of such a trade off.
There are just too many glaring flaws to contend with for disc pvp atm so I've been levelling a DK who I've crafted the blue pvp set and a titansteel destroyer for. I'll come back to priest at some point but I have a great Resto Shaman friend to play with in all brackets and they're looking much stronger than priests currently so it just makes sense to play with him as the healer.
Mana burn is very weak now, every fucker has a dispel resist talent making it an incredibly fast mana dump, we simply don't have the stamina/resillience levels to play offensively meaning a huge portion of disc priest pvp is just missing entirely while you desperately try to survive...I love this class but it'll just be a pve character for now.
I can see shadow being successful with the right partners, ret, dk, rogue, maybe even mage, I just don't enjoy playing it. There may be some interesting synergy with an unholy dk, you apply 2 diseases to help cover his from dispels, though misery is removed if the corresponding magic debuffs are removed. Ebon Plague will increase the damage of dp by 30% and the rest of your damage by 13%. He can use pestillence to spread the diseases resulting in 5 diseases total on each enemy in range which is a nightmare to remove and a massive boost to his ability to set up burst damage because his hard hitters rely on diseases being up.
He also has the best peels in the game, death grip + chains of ice moves that melee 30 yards away from you and roots him in place next to an angry dude in plate, that's a very sudden shift in the dynamics of the battle for them and their priorities will shift away from smashing the priest very fast.
If you were doing bgs exactly how you're geared and specced in your armory, I would imagine it wasn't particularly fun. Priests scale with gear and our talents are critical. Paladins and Shamans are more inherently durable and druids are mobile. We're neither, so we make up for it with gear and talents.
That said, I get the feeling that priests will probably have more luck during the first part of S5 as shadow instead of holy or disc. Without the resilience to back you up, healing priests remains squishy and don't have the survivability to be able to play offensively, which is our strength as a healer anyway. Starting the season as shadow until your resil goes up allows you to join a burst team and get some points under your belt as well as allowing you to have some fun in BGs instead of having to follow around PUG DPS (unless you're lucky enough to have guild premades).
Uhh, survivability tends to go DOWN as seasons progress, not the opposite. With the removal of bonus armour on items, that's going to be even more likely. Survivability will be lower at the START of a season, but not once people gather their sets.
Penance is the best Disc Spell there is. Trading it for Silence is really not worth it.
Previously you were also gaining blackout and MF, usefull as either extra stuns or using the snare as a weech peel. Given that you can't just use rank 1 spells now those two benefits are less spamable, but still helpful in my opinion. You're also gaining extra hit through talents (less need to gem for it), dispel fodder through shadow weaving as well as the shorter cooldown on Psychic Scream. That might not seem like much at first glance but it makes more and more of a difference as the game gets longer if you've kept it on cooldown and exploited the reduced duration. When I was running rogue/trispec priest 2v2 coming up against a rogue/disc priest was basically a free win given the extra control we could excercise over them. Basically the spec compliments any comp focused on control, eg. rogue/priest 2v2 or MRP. If you're not familiar with the spec and how it synergises with certain comps feel free to refrain from mindlessly criticizing it. Otherwise, feel free to provide a little bit of reasoning to your argument rather then 'x is better then y that is all'. I know how good penance is, I've ran it in both PvP and PvE specs being a massive disc fanboi. Consider context though - is it still the best disc spell there is when your opponents are able to dish out MS/Wound/Aimed Shots? To be honest I think Pain Suppression offsets burst trains including heal debuffs far better then just mindlessly healing through it does.
On another note, which comps are other priests looking at running in S5? I'd be happy sticking with the staples such as rogue/priest, hunter/priest, mage/rogue/priest until S5 meta develops but at this stage it looks like finding partners who are both competant and reliable at the same time may be a limiting factor. I'm thinking about running DK/Hunter/Priest as a starting team, reasoning that there's a healing debuff, CC through traps/fears, peels through grip and chains as well as the option to drain if it turns out to be a viable strat. On paper it seems like a viable comp. Do you see any problems with the comp? Missing any contingencies? Any problematic counter-comps?
- Disc priests have very strong survivability once they have sufficient gear. Intrinsically, priests are a cloth class, and focused will was nerfed, so priests even in the full blue set will be incredibly susceptible to melee trains. I see priests very problematic in 3 vs 3 due to this.
- Vipersting + Chimera shot means that any disc priest + x team has to win in under a minute versus a hunter based team or you lost. Keep in mind that the changes to vipersting means that it is even more deadly than ever versus priests - basically, vipersting scales as a % of mana pool, since disc priests have the biggest mana pools of any pvp class due to the + int talents, priests get drained much faster. The lack of any dispell means that any semi-competent hunter will just vipersting you + chimera shot refresh and get you OOM in well under a minute.
Shamans I think will become the new FOTM healer with fear immunity, totems that cannot be pet-stomped, and hex. Double DPS will be incredibly strong, and against double DPS bubble is amazing.
I see disc priests doing well in those brackets maybe:
3 vs 3 in 2 healer combinations. 2 healer hunter might still be very good, and just as gay, although i imagine holy paladin/disc priest/hunter is the best way to play it.
3 vs 3 in PMR playing extremly aggressively. No clue how you will survive a deathgrip + mutilate rogue as PMR though.
5 vs 5 with a paladin to support us.
Shadow will be strong in 2 vs 2 with a rogue, although most likely they will be second fiddle to mages in that slot. Shadowpriest/resto shaman/rogue will be very very strong - you have CCs on 3 DR, and if someone trinkets hex or fear they are going to get blinded.
I don't see how the season will even pretend to have symmetry without some serious boosts to healer survivability in particular, as well as some serious nerfs to other skills. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, but I just don't see how mostly pure DPS comps won't dominate in every bracket. No one can outheal the type of damage people put out now, so I think the best support options will end up being holy paladin (only one who can come close, and at least has bubble/HoP etc), some restokin hybrid that can heal in a pinch but also burst and, most importantly, CC, and shaman who play offensively.
I don't see how priests can function in their traditional matrices given the new talents and whatnot. Take 5v5 - the traditional dispel bitch/mana burn role seems pretty obsolete when you can DG someone behind a pillar and just gib them, among other things.
I don't see how the season will even pretend to have symmetry without some serious boosts to healer survivability in particular, as well as some serious nerfs to other skills. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, but I just don't see how mostly pure DPS comps won't dominate in every bracket. No one can outheal the type of damage people put out now, so I think the best support options will end up being holy paladin (only one who can come close, and at least has bubble/HoP etc), some restokin hybrid that can heal in a pinch but also burst and, most importantly, CC, and shaman who play offensively.
I don't see how priests can function in their traditional matrices given the new talents and whatnot. Take 5v5 - the traditional dispel bitch/mana burn role seems pretty obsolete when you can DG someone behind a pillar and just gib them, among other things.
Yeah, but I am not sure if we will see a 'season 2 effect' where resilience ends up maxed but gear scaling has not quite kicked in so damage decreases before increasing again.
My main concern is that in the past priests had a lot of utility but very very little healing power - priests were only good in teams where they did not have to heal a lot. Right now the damage is so high that utility is quite useless since you have to burn every single GCD to heal - and if you are doing that, you might as well take a paladin since they are the only class with sufficient throughput.
One redeeming factor of priests though Amera is mass-dispell. Being able to train people with invulnerability will be huge, as well as quickly removing bop.
One thing you point out with deathgrip is that teams might end up even more defensive and refusing to leave their corner, and just huddling in waiting for the other team to blink first.
One thing you point out with deathgrip is that teams might end up even more defensive and refusing to leave their corner, and just huddling in waiting for the other team to blink first.
Just replaying some top10 5v5 games from last season in my head, this may indeed be the case. I mean in s4 it was already the case against a lot of teams we played - you could spend 5-10m just dicking with each other, dancing in and out with neither team willing to commit because a shaman + mage + intercept stun could kill someone. Now toss in the ability to directly control your opponent's position, and it is going to be a massive standoff.
MD is also a good point and potential wild card for priests in 3s and 5s especially.
My main concerns in PvP, as a priest are these really:
- Viper sting means that priests cannot compete in any set up without a poison cleanser unless you can reliably win in under a minute.
- Lack of survivability to melee trains
For overall PvP:
- Burst being way too high
- Healing being marginalized in favour of just blow somebody up.
Ugh, if there's anything about Disc priest PvP I hated it was circling a pillar running purely off regen fumes desperately trying to keep yourself up with mending and avoid that next viper sting for just a few more seconds...
Gonna be 100x more fun now!!
With the resillience cap being so high now, and the blue set not even giving you a third of it, I can't see how priests will cap until S2 at the earliest.
Since I took my pc to the shop about 10 days ago I've been kinda bored and have been making up possible specs for my priest once I get my pc back. Hearing all these stories about damage being insane and priests dropping like flies I wondered what you guys think of the following spec:
The idea behind it is that you as a priest will always be the focus target and that games wont last too long. There, I've skipped talents like Rapture (which I've heard doesn't give that much mana back anyway) and Aspiration in favor of maxing out Enlightenment, Improved inner Fire, Blessed Recovery and Spell Warding. I kept 2/2 Improved Mana Burn and Penance incase your not being focused and need to heal your partner(s) or have time to Mana Burn.
Gear wise, which off pieces will you be picking up? Are you going for spirit, crit, mp5 or haste? Personally I'm going haste, again because survival seems king and games wont last long enough for you to go oom. Will be even better if youre teaming up with a Balance or Feral Druid since he can Innervate you, giving you a second mana pool which upsets any mana lost from Rapture, Mental Agility and any 'lost' spirit or mp5.
If anything, shadow priests are even MORE ineffectual than disc priests when nobody has any resilience.
Not necessarily - considering the 15% physical damage reduction, coupled with psychic horror and dispersion as an additional aid against stuns, I don't see why shadowpriests would be less effective than disc priests when undergeared.
Not necessarily - considering the 15% physical damage reduction, coupled with psychic horror and dispersion as an additional aid against stuns, I don't see why shadowpriests would be less effective than disc priests when undergeared.
Because when getting pounded by melee the only spells you can reliably get off are dispell, shadow word pain, devouring plague.
You might live longer, but you aren't really going to do anything without a rogue to peel from you.
Because when getting pounded by melee the only spells you can reliably get off are dispell, shadow word pain, devouring plague.
You might live longer, but you aren't really going to do anything without a rogue to peel from you.
I absolutely agree that shadowpriests without resilience are highly ineffective, I just don't necessarily think that this is any less true for disc priests. Then again, priests of any spec have always had huge problems with rogues, even with resilience.
I absolutely agree that shadowpriests without resilience are highly ineffective, I just don't necessarily think that this is any less true for disc priests. Then again, priests of any spec have always had huge problems with rogues, even with resilience.
Well, both classes are horrendously vulnerable to melee trains, but disc has the advantage that almost all the spells it uses are instant-cast so they are not 'locked down' as much. Shadowpriests are stuck doing nothing while getting focused.
I just tried to do some Arena as shadow, and was pretty much useless. The only thing I managed to do semi-effectively was hang on to my life with dispersion/psychic scream/silence while my partner killed someone, and I could have done that way better as disc. Pretty depressing so far.
I'm curious to see the rankings when arenajunkies gets some numbers out, but I have had serious difficulties in the 2-man arenas this new season, mostly getting stomped by double dps teams. 3v3s weren't bad.
My main problem in 2v2s is that Penance still has that stupid target-facing requirement AND I can't cast it on myself. No matter who I partner with in 2v2, I will almost always be the first dps target, and the fact I can't cast my best heal on myself makes me question the whole spec for 2v2.
From what I'm hearing - and I'll preface this by saying that my info is second hand - the best way to counter priest survivability issues is to stick to 3v3s and run double healer with at least one CC class.
Something like Hydra's old Restokin/Hunter/Priest or Restokin/Rogue/Priest I think would still do well this season. A DK would make a decent DPS class as well to pair with double healer.
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basically, vipersting scales as a % of mana pool, since disc priests have the biggest mana pools of any pvp class due to the + int talents, priests get drained much faster.
This is completely wrong. Even with all +int talents etc, you still have no where near the mana of a Paladin/Shaman or even a druid. We actually have the Lowest mana pool of any class, especially in PvE gear right now.
To add some hope to everyone's distraught. I agree that right now, games are pretty imbalanced especially for priests and warlocks. But we have always been tanking classes. We are completely under geared to just get trained on. I can't stress enough that I dislike the fact that after 3.0 I can't really beat any decent class in a duel (Not that those matter). We rely on a partner a lot now.
Anywho, Im running PMR in 3's and RMP, DK, Pala in 5's. I think we are first in 3's and 2nd in 5's. My current spec is pretty much a stay alive, inefficient mana spec. Guardian spirit is the only reason I stay alive sometimes, and even if I die I still last a good 15 seconds to heal. Normally by the time I die or barely make it out with my boots still on, my team mates have killed someone. In 5's, At first I was shadow untill we hit around 1750. I really output no damage and the only reason I was there was to dispel and tank. Dispersion was helpful with that of course. The reason I switched was because at the higher rating - not everyone trained the priest (surprisingly) because our 3 dps were just too strong. So being able to gspirit a teammate was extremely useful. The only problem I have been having is going oom extremely fast- but normally games don't last longer then 2 minutes.
This is completely wrong. Even with all +int talents etc, you still have no where near the mana of a Paladin/Shaman or even a druid. We actually have the Lowest mana pool of any class, especially in PvE gear right now.
That's only because priests have to gem / gear for pure resilience while paladins can get away with a lot more PvE gear than us - our scaling with int is pretty amazing as disc.
12/04/08, 3:49 PM
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