A 3v3 team that has no one that can dispel or protect themselves is so rare its not worth being concerned about. Dying to DOT attrition takes a long time, even with a stacked team like that. The scenario you describe is regrettable, but its about as likely as a 3 mage team encountering a 3 warlock team and getting destroyed - statistically insignificant and not worth twisting the whole game around to fix.
I don't see how it can be rare. There are 2 classes that can defensively dispel, out of 9. There are a lot of teams with druid or shaman healers, and a couple of melee or casters. I'm not talking about ultra high end totally balanced teams here..there are a ton of teams that are like rogue/mage/druid or a couple of warriors and a shaman, and yes, we win every one of them. It's not statistically insignificant at all. if 8/9 classes could defensively dispel, then I'd agree with you, but I'm not sure how you can make that claim.
And no, it really doesn't take a long time with 2 450 SW: P's, 2 325 VT's, a corruption, COA and Siphon life. We DOT one guy up, do something interesting to the healer and that guy dies. Rinse/repeat. That's an auto win situation and it's come up at least 40% of the time so far. My green geared scrub team should not be taking out a team simply because they don't contain a priest or a paladin.
I don't see how it can be rare. There are 2 classes that can defensively dispel, out of 9. There are a lot of teams with druid or shaman healers, and a couple of melee or casters. I'm not talking about ultra high end totally balanced teams here..there are a ton of teams that are like rogue/mage/druid or a couple of warriors and a shaman, and yes, we win every one of them. It's not statistically insignificant at all. if 8/9 classes could defensively dispel, then I'd agree with you, but I'm not sure how you can make that claim.
And no, it really doesn't take a long time with 2 450 SW: P's, 2 325 VT's, a corruption, COA and Siphon life. We DOT one guy up, do something interesting to the healer and that guy dies. Rinse/repeat. That's an auto win situation and it's come up at least 40% of the time so far. My green geared scrub team should not be taking out a team simply because they don't contain a priest or a paladin.
Could you link your team? Not to call you out, but because I'd honestly like to see what kind of gear you and your teammates have that can get these results.
I told you, scrub team, scrub rating. Imagine the worst gear possible, then knock it down a few notches and you have my team. We lose vs certain matchups because we don't play enough to work out a viable strategy, but I assure you, the majority of our wins are vs teams without a priest or paladin. I feel sorry for these people, they have no way to win, and they shouldn't be losing to us simply because we're 2 shadow priests and a warlock.
I'm not touting any spectacular results, I'm saying that it's pretty obvious that such setups are overpowered and it is clearly visible if you look at it objectively.
My shadowpriest is wearing R11/12 gear and has AQ Staff/BWL gear at 70 (I rarely play him) with a few tailored items and blues. I have 500 spell damage and 8k health, with the old pvp trinket and Ouro trinket, and we manage a winning record of around 1750 with a UA Lock partner. By all accounts, I should be losing horribly - as it saddens me deeply when we crush the crap out of a War/Pal 2v2 with full glad. poor guys. Usually I do die, but not before I can stack up full dots with UA on the War or Pal + Mass Dispell, and by then we've already won.
My shadowpriest is wearing R11/12 gear and has AQ Staff/BWL gear at 70 (I rarely play him) with a few tailored items and blues. I have 500 spell damage and 8k health, with the old pvp trinket and Ouro trinket, and we manage a winning record of around 1750 with a UA Lock partner. By all accounts, I should be losing horribly - as it saddens me deeply when we crush the crap out of a War/Pal 2v2 with full glad. poor guys. Usually I do die, but not before I can stack up full dots with UA on the War or Pal + Mass Dispell, and by then we've already won.
I find this somewhat dubious, not that I don't believe you entirely but why would you be wearing R11/12 gear with a 1750 rating against full gladiator gear. I mean you must have some Gladiator gear unless you guys just started in the last two weeks.
2v2 a matching game, I play a hunter with a druid partner and we beat shadow priest/aff. locks all the time. I can usually mana drain both players even with an untalented viper sting while my partner is being drained. Once they are OOM he just innervates and I mop them up 'cause they can't really heal. Sure the lock could life tap for mana, but that is usually a bad call while I am pounding on him. Our hardest teams are double melee dps teams (Enh Shaman/MS warrior are bad times) or another hunter + druid/shaman/paladin team with a similar strat. to ours.
Now I am not saying we are the best team but we haven't even been playing with proper arena specs. This week we plan to see how much of a difference arena specs make for us.
Basically, your anecdote is not sufficient justification that DoTs are overpowered. IMHO, it is the combination of fears with powerful DoTs that can hurt the most. Because other CCs break on damage chain CC on one player to get 15-18 seconds of CC isn't as devastating as the 15-18 seconds of fear you can put on a player completely DoT'ed to hell. Even that though doesn't make them unstoppable, just a strong class.
I told you, scrub team, scrub rating. Imagine the worst gear possible, then knock it down a few notches and you have my team. We lose vs certain matchups because we don't play enough to work out a viable strategy, but I assure you, the majority of our wins are vs teams without a priest or paladin. I feel sorry for these people, they have no way to win, and they shouldn't be losing to us simply because we're 2 shadow priests and a warlock.
I'm not touting any spectacular results, I'm saying that it's pretty obvious that such setups are overpowered and it is clearly visible if you look at it objectively.
The Armory
I don't want to sound elitist, but an arena rating of 1465 and a W-L of 20-22 doesn't exactly exemplify the dominance of shadowpriest/lock teams as you imply. Players at that level are just as undergeared as you are and more often than not, are simply bad at PvP.
I don't see how it can be rare. There are 2 classes that can defensively dispel, out of 9.
2 classes can dispel others. 4 more -- rogues, frost mages, paladins, and warlocks w/ spellstone -- can completely wipe off your entire stack of DoT's. A Soul Link or Destro lock (with Nether Protection) can be just as difficult to kill. A competent resto druid can easily keep pace with warlock/shadowpriest's DoT's with his own HoT's, while dancing around pillars and altars.
In fact, the only classes that really get owned by DoT-based teams are hunters, warriors, and to a lesser-extent shaman (grounding/tremor totem and shocks make them a pain to deal with). But as long as there is one of these classes on the field, the shadowpriest/warlock combo can quickly make it a 2v3.
At your rating, you're going to find a lot of players susceptible to DoT's, which means there's an easy target for you to kill to tip the scales. You'll see more fire mages and hunters and feral druids. If you do climb up the ladder though, and start facing rogue/frost mage/priest teams, you'll quickly learn that shadowpriest/lock teams are no longer the flavor of the month.
A competent resto druid can easily keep pace with warlock/shadowpriest's DoT's with his own HoT's, while dancing around pillars and altars.
I find that hard to believe, based on my experience. In 2s, a full focus shadow team dps cannot be outhealed with hots, even if they don't CC the druid, which they will silence/CS/fear at some point if they have at least 1 brain cell. Yes, you can cyclone/charge/bash one dps to ease up thirs dps, but many times it's the time you really need to heal since they stacked all their dots and every GCD is precious. With a rogue or warlock (spellstone/nether prot) partner this can be survived, but anything else is a walk in the park for the shadow team.
Actually shadow team is overpowered against teams that are very weak to CC. I play affliction warlock with either a resto druid or a holy priest and tend to destroy shadow teams. Just focus on the shadow priest and CC as much as possible the warlock, once he is forced to take off his shadow form to heal himself you've won.
They definitely aren't the flavor of the month anymore. I tend to see rogue + xx as the flavor of the month in lower bracket since they will beat the crap out of most warlock teams easily. Actually I wish they would nerf fear for good and give us something against melee because at this point of arena, when I have a rogue on me and I m not soul linked I know I ll be dead soon ^^
I'd just like to chime in and reply to the comment someone said about the resilience change effecting channeled spells. Speaking for my own class (Spriest) this would potentially have the greatest negative for me in certain situations. The reason being for this is that my DoTs _are_ dispellable, and when done so mind flay is the only reliable offence I have (Mind Blasting against a melee running circles through you is very iffy and SWD is just to risky in many situations). 3 seconds of uninterupted Mind Flay will hit for about 1400, a bit more than a(n) (instant) mortal strike hit, however the likelyhood of it being interupted is huge in an arena environment. With the time in between recasts effecting DPS and the cost of mana increasing because of constant recasts, having that 10% less damage would severly reduce our damage and mana efficiency. I can't speak for life drain or other channeled spells, but for mind flay at least it would be a bad idea.
As a quick aside with channeled spells, have NE priests had any luck casting starshards against targets trying to LoS around poles?
As for the rogue crit arguement I think the biggest problem with that is not the damage lost from lack of crits but rather the utility. I think it was an oversight on Blizzards part that defensive crit reliant skills still proc from a resilience 'converted' non crits, but offensive abilities like seal fate don't. Hopefully, and in all fairness, it will be fixed soon.
In regards to shadow resists, there is no armour that can be put on that makes a warriors damage neglige, his pummel mostly miss, his shouts mostly resist, or a rogues stuns mostly miss, his blind mostly fail etc etc so why should some items totally counter some specs? Shadow resist gear was overpowering and people who did it knew it, they wouldn't do it otherwise. That being said I don't think gear changes being blocked is the perfect solution. Instead I think resists should only apply from player buffs in arenas, which would allow gear switches for all the other - non-overpowering - reason.
In regards to classes with increased damage on crits (Hunters with Mortal Shots), how does this patch note affect us?
"Corrected the damage modifier calculation for Resilience when the attack has bonus critical strike damage."
There are a few ways I can see this being taken, but I cannot test any of them since I lack a target with 500+ resilience to shoot at.
1) Damage is being reduced based on the original crit value. example: If I crit for 1000 normally and have an extra 30% applied for 1300 total, the amount of damage reduced with capped resilience is 25% of 1000. That puts my total crit damage at 1050.
2) Damage is being reduced as a whole. example: If I do 1000 on a Crit, the talent makes me do 30% more damage for 1300 instead. If someone has capped resilience it reduces my total of 1300 by 25%. This makes the least amount of damage I can deal with a crit 975. This also makes every point of resilience more powerful.
3) Damage can be reduced to 25% of the damage I would have caused. example: If I dealt 1000 with a crit and the talent boosted it to 1300, someone with 55% crit reduction (impossible I know, but stick with me for the sake of the example) would be capable of bringing me down to 750 damage on that crit. Each point of resilience is worth the same as scenario #1, but it is not effectively capped until you reach 75% of the original crit value.
Do we know which scenario the above patch note creates?
Well, has that been tested?
The posting explaining it begins with 'think it's like this', this doesn't sound too definitive to me.
Although the explanation seems pretty logical, and would represent scenario #2 in Kaber's posting.
How much will resilience affect DOT effects exactly?
I am at 468 resilience, and character sheet shows 22.73% reduction to crit strike damage. Thats that mean that a dot that ticks for 500 pre patch now ticks for 386??
Will this affect all DOT effects such as bleed effects?
How much will resilience affect DOT effects exactly?
I am at 468 resilience, and character sheet shows 22.73% reduction to crit strike damage. Thats that mean that a dot that ticks for 500 pre patch now ticks for 386??
Will this affect all DOT effects such as bleed effects?
Originally Posted by Blueposting
Resilience Rating: The reduction to the percent chance to get a critical strike now also reduces the damage dealt by damage over time effects by the same percentage.
From the patch notes, so the damage reduction to DOTs should only be 11.36% using your example (as resilience reduces crit chance by 1% and crit damage by 2%). Or 443 damage.
Well, has that been tested?
The posting explaining it begins with 'think it's like this', this doesn't sound too definitive to me.
Although the explanation seems pretty logical, and would represent scenario #2 in Kaber's posting.
Yes, it has been tested. I'm not sure if the links from the original post are valid, but if you read all the posts in the thread you will find several people confirming the unusual crit damage reduction. Kaber's #2 mentions crit damage cap which has nothing to do with the calculation bug being fixed.
- Corrected the damage modifier calculation for Resilience when the attacker has bonus critical strike damage.
From the patch notes, obviously. This lends a little credibility to their calculations considering it's being fixed. I consider this equally important when compared to the resilience DOT or gear change fixes, but that isn't necessarily justified because I don't know whether the change will yield significant damage changes.
So I think the more interesting queston is, how much harder are warriors, mages, rogues, druids etc going to hit now that resilience isn't taking a larger chunk of their crit damage? It seems like a small amount in the example link, but it does scale with gear.
Oh, and how many people will be wearing 2-3 BT pieces arena'ing all of the time?
Yes, it has been tested. I'm not sure if the links from the original post are valid, but if you read all the posts in the thread you will find several people confirming the unusual crit damage reduction. Kaber's #2 mentions crit damage cap which has nothing to do with the calculation bug being fixed.
I don't mean the unusual crit damage reduction, I mean the *fixed* values as they are now active.
Yeah, the lack of gear swap is extremely annoying as I normally rotate a full set of trinkets through.
At least I'll still be able to OH weapon swap for double shiv types. Removing that would be another rogue nerf, as it greatly increases flexibility being able to shiv Mind Numb and Crippling.
Equally, in 2v2 and 3v3 I'll often swap in my damage gear instead of my resilience gear against certain caster line ups. Now I have to run full resilience, 100% of the time, just in the (common) event that the enemy has a warrior.
i fully support the no gear change. run what you brung. (period). i have lost many times to the 2x sPriest or priest/lock dot teams etc etc. the idea of switching gear during combat (ie arena match) is retarded. it needs to be removed, except normally switchable items, as noted.
From reading that thread this creates scenario #2. Applying resilience before the crit bonus is the same as applying the full resilience amount to the total crit. If someone had 25% crit reduction that brings the crit down to 750. Multiply that by 30% and you get 975. If you did it the other way around, 1300 reduced by 25% is 975.
"Kaber's #2 mentions crit damage cap which has nothing to do with the calculation bug being fixed."
What? I simply said "capped" to let people know I was using 25% as the value in my example. #1 and 2 have nothing to do with where the cap is or is not, they are about how much of a reduction you get per % of resilience based how how and when the game calculates the reduction (#3 does deal with caps but that's neither here nor there).
I don't see how this change will effect the domination of warlocks in 2v2 and 3v3 at all, if you sit at 350 resilience you will reduce DoT dmg done against you by roughly 11%. That's not enough to make any real difference.
I play in a 3v3 team consisting of a resto shaman(me), frost mage and a MS warrior. It's literally impossible for us to beat a team with a warlock+shadow priest combo + healer, worst example would be warlock, priest and paladin. We can play a perfect game from start to finish and we will still loose hard.
In my battle group if you look at the top 40 teams in the 3v3 bracket you will see that roughly 70% of the teams use a warlock, blizzard have all the data so they should be aware of this so I'm just waiting for them to do something about it. The DoT "nerf" is a step in the right direction but it's not enough. Fear should break more easily, they should sacrifice more dps if they want to have there incredible survivability and the mana/life drain should get a nerf.
I don't see how this change will effect the domination of warlocks in 2v2 and 3v3 at all, if you sit at 350 resilience you will reduce DoT dmg done against you by roughly 11%. That's not enough to make any real difference.
I play in a 3v3 team consisting of a resto shaman(me), frost mage and a MS warrior. It's literally impossible for us to beat a team with a warlock+shadow priest combo + healer, worst example would be warlock, priest and paladin. We can play a perfect game from start to finish and we will still loose hard.
In my battle group if you look at the top 40 teams in the 3v3 bracket you will see that roughly 70% of the teams use a warlock, blizzard have all the data so they should be aware of this so I'm just waiting for them to do something about it. The DoT "nerf" is a step in the right direction but it's not enough. Fear should break more easily, they should sacrifice more dps if they want to have there incredible survivability and the mana/life drain should get a nerf.
I can reply to that by saying that I run resto shaman warlock shadowpriest, and a well-played priest mage rogue is unbeatable for us. Non-undead dagger rogue + non-dwarf/dranaei priest is almost beatable, but when you get to teams with combat mace rogues (some with BT weapons) and fearward priests, the combination is unbeatable for us. Running UA lock + shadowpriest, we got hit hardest by the dot nerf, which doesn't hurt SL manadrain/fearbots nearly as hard.
9/10 teams in our top 10 run some combo of rogue / (mage/lock) / (priest/druid). So when are rogue nerfs coming again?
08/14/07, 2:38 PM
poor guys. Usually I do die, but not before I can stack up full dots with UA on the War or Pal + Mass Dispell, and by then we've already won.
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