First please forgive me for my ignorance, I play a Priest main but have a 70 rogue Alt that I just started PvPing with and really could use some help.
Couple of things right off I noticed is I miss a lot. I'm mutilate spec and everytime I miss a KS or Gouge is ruins my ability to stay on my opponents back, which in-turn kills my dps making me a pretty crappy rogue.
So I thought I would come here to get some advice from some skilled rogues.
What +hit do I need to be at to keep from missing so much?
What are the standard PvP specs?
What kind of ability rotation should I be using to keep people locked down?
Really I'm just a noob rogue looking for some good overall, all-around advice on what stats I need to be shooting for, some good combos that will help me keep my opponent under better control, and what the best (standard) PvP specs are.
You need 5% +hit to not miss in pvp although some talents might require you to have more (frost mages etc). The most used specs at the moment probably are combat mutilate (41/20/0) and combat sword/fist/mace (17,19-41,43-0) which both have the advantage of precision which gives 5% +hit. As a mutilate rogue a combination like cheapshot, mutilate, kidney shot, mutilate or even a double mutilate depending on energy is most likely the most viable. In between your kidney shot cooldowns you can throw in a gouge to interrupt spells whenever kick is on cooldown or to simply get behind your target easier.
Edit: My post stated 7% but this has been corrected later on in this thread for being wrong, its 5%. Having more then 5% is still recommended though due to certain defensive talent specs you might encounter on opponents which can cause missed secials/blinds.
You need 7% +hit to not miss in pvp although some talents might require you to have more (frost mages etc). The most used specs at the moment probably are combat mutilate (41/20/0) and combat sword/fist/mace (17,19-41,43-0) which both have the advantage of precision which gives 5% +hit. As a mutilate rogue a combination like cheapshot, mutilate, kidney shot, mutilate or even a double mutilate depending on energy is most likely the most viable. In between your kidney shot cooldowns you can throw in a gouge to interrupt spells whenever kick is on cooldown or to simply get behind your target easier.
so what does 7% equate to in +hit if I pick up 5/5 precision? I expected to see a Prep build as a standard PvP spec, seems like having 2 sets of cooldowns in arenas would be pretty strong.
For 2% chance to hit you would need 31.6 hit rating, this should easily be obtainable. The main problem with prep builds is that past the openers they can't come close to the sustained dps combat mutilate or combat fist/sword/mace can obtain. In the arena you pretty much only get 1 or 2 openers off so a spec that is focused around doing damage outside of stealth will be better. Where mutilate has the highest damage per energy ratio which is good for doing maximum damage if you are being kited and get short breaks at your target, combat fist/mace/sword has the advantage of very high sustained dps that has no poison or positional requirement. Both these specs have there strengths in different areas but are very viable for arenas.
Two sets of cooldowns IS very strong. The issue is that the things you give up for it are pretty big too. None of the rogue arena gear (weapons excluded) has +hit, so without precision you need a lot more pve gear on your character. Also, dual wield spec is a big dps bump for mutilate (which doesn't get prep anyway). Hemo prep and old standards like ambush/bs builds are doable in 2v2 and 3v3, but they tend to be inconsistent and have more issues as your rating goes up (and enemies get over 10k hp and 200-400 resilience). To be honest, a priest is a much more useful PvP class than a rogue right now.
Two sets of cooldowns IS very strong. The issue is that the things you give up for it are pretty big too. None of the rogue arena gear (weapons excluded) has +hit, so without precision you need a lot more pve gear on your character. Also, dual wield spec is a big dps bump for mutilate (which doesn't get prep anyway). Hemo prep and old standards like ambush/bs builds are doable in 2v2 and 3v3, but they tend to be inconsistent and have more issues as your rating goes up (and enemies get over 10k hp and 200-400 resilience). To be honest, a priest is a much more useful PvP class than a rogue right now.
Well I have 36-37 +hit right now so picking up 5/5 precision should fix my missing problems. I pvp with my priest too :-)
I am in two 3vs3 arena teams, with my rogue (main) and my priest(alt).
My partners when I play as rogue are a MM Hunter and a paladin, we are currently at 1813 (arround 2k last season) and I play combat/swords.
When I'm on my priest my teammates are a MS warrior and another MM Hunter (a different one), currently at arround 17xx.
The spec of a rogue really depends on your playstyle and to a part also on your teammates. Say for example your partners are a warlock and a priest, or a mage; it is unlikely that you will be focused first. So a 41/20 will give you the most benefit, because you can almost every time beat up the enemy caster/healer what ever.
But when you play war/pal/rogue you will yourself often see as the primary target. So a combat build (preferably maces) will give you a little advantage.
Depending on your partners your role also changes. Have a warrior as partner, expose armor, stun and call burst, maybe blind the healer if possible. Have a caster as partner, try to cripple their melee dps, interupt heals/fears/sheeps and do as much damage to the focus
as possible.
I suggest as a first goal, try to get to 10k hp unbuffed, without sacrificing to many damage stats.
In the 5vs5 bracket that changes of course, but I don't play that bracket anymore (with my rogue) because I think rogues are bogus in 5vs5
I have a rogue friend who has just started with pvp, and he chose this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I am under the impression that this would be better than 1x/4x/0, or am I mistaken?
well it is a standart quick recovery mace build, pretty common.
Ì personally can't justify giving up "Suprise Attack" and "Nerves of Steel".
But I think Quick Recovery will help early on, when you do not have the HP and Res to survive some focus fire.
You need ~7% to not miss specials in PVP but you WILL still miss plenty of white attacks if that's all the +hit you have. That's not such a big deal for dagger rogues and I think it's less important than other stats but extra +hit certainly won't hurt you. When you took dual wield as a wee rogue your miss rate on white attacks from both hands went up to ~25%.
Sword builds do a majority of their long-term damage from white attacks so I think +hit is actually somewhat decent in PVP. Granted you'll do more special damage in arenas than you would in raids but white damage is still an important part.
Having +hit is good, especially if you can get it in exchange for +crit which is less useful against high resilience targets. Hit rating also increases the chance for your poisons to land on white attacks (since poison can't get applied on a missed attack), which is important if you want to keep crippling applied to your target, and/or a stack of wound poison up.
Ok to recap, this is what I'm getting from your responses so far:
a) my +hit should be fine in the mid 30s (if I pick up Precision)
b) if I stay mutilate spec I need to take my 15 points out of sub and put them combat for obvious reasons
c) I need to get my HP up to 10k
All good advice. I'd like to get more specific if possible,
1) For PvP, how should I rank my stat importance. I assume stam>Resilliance>AP>Agility...and on those lines, what are realistic number I can shoot for.
2) If I'm primarily doing 2v2 and 3v3 arenas would a spec that doesn't require positioning for max-DPS be more suitable?
3) What rogue specific addons should I consider?
10k is a minium health level. Shot for as much resilience as you can fit while keeping other stats up, the PvP gear is matched just fine. If you got 40+ combat, +hit becomes better.
Regarding positioning, that is a playstyle thing, if you can handle the back, keep what you have.
Common addons like cooldown timers (OmniCC), cast bars (Natur's enemy cast bar), energy tic (until 2.2 patch) counter, and some mod to track stuns/gouge.
I may not have these mod names right but they're probably close:
CCWatch or Stunwatch for timers on your stuns and other CCs.
EnergyWatch for energy regen ticker.
ArenaMaster is great for arenas.
I use the Blizzard enemy cast bars, both of them, and they should be on at all times imo (PVE,PVP,grinding, all the time).
I macro any 'on use' items that I have so that they're fired immediately when I open in the arenas. For instance I have my AP trinket in a macro with sinister strike so that every time I try to SS it tries to use the trinket first. It prevents me from forgetting about it and makes sure that I use it every time it's available. It's nice in both PVP and PVE.
I think most rogues use wound/crippling poisons in MH/OH respectively. That's what I usually use. If I really want to micromanage I'll apply mind-numbing over wound if I see that the other team doesn't have a healer (I play with a druid so we can both remain in stealth while I do this). Some people swap weapons in and out to achieve similar poison control.
I played mutilate in the arenas until S2 when I bought the S2 MH sword and swapped specs. I'm still getting the hang of it but it's really nice to not have positioning restrictions and you also don't have to wait for so much energy regen before hitting a special. Many classes have almost no chance against me if I can focus on them with Adrenaline Rush up. I love daggers and wish they were buffed to compete with swords but currently they just don't seem to stack up so well.
Ok to recap, this is what I'm getting from your responses so far:
a) my +hit should be fine in the mid 30s (if I pick up Precision)
b) if I stay mutilate spec I need to take my 15 points out of sub and put them combat for obvious reasons
c) I need to get my HP up to 10k
All good advice. I'd like to get more specific if possible,
1) For PvP, how should I rank my stat importance. I assume stam>Resilliance>AP>Agility...and on those lines, what are realistic number I can shoot for.
2) If I'm primarily doing 2v2 and 3v3 arenas would a spec that doesn't require positioning for max-DPS be more suitable?
3) What rogue specific addons should I consider?
10k hitpoints unbuffed is what you want to aim at and anything above that is pretty useless in my opinion. I always try to stay at around 10.2-10.3k hitpoints unbuffed and for the rest I'm stacking dps gems and enchants. Just to give you an example of my pvp stats unbuffed: 10.2k hitpoints, 27% dodge, 1450 attack power (will be around 1470 when I get my season 2 legs enchanted), 28% crit, 120'ish hit rating and around 320 resilience. I believe the biggest mistake alot of rogues make is to focus so much on survivability that they forgot to get decent dps stats. A rogue that can't do high damage might as well be replaced. Using pve gear in the ring,neck,bracer,belt and boot slots is nothing to be ashamed off as these items tend to offer more balanced stats.
10k hitpoints unbuffed is what you want to aim at and anything above that is pretty useless in my opinion. I always try to stay at around 10.2-10.3k hitpoints unbuffed and for the rest I'm stacking dps gems and enchants. Just to give you an example of my pvp stats unbuffed: 10.2k hitpoints, 27% dodge, 1450 attack power (will be around 1470 when I get my season 2 legs enchanted), 28% crit, 120'ish hit rating and around 320 resilience. I believe the biggest mistake alot of rogues make is to focus so much on survivability that they forgot to get decent dps stats. A rogue that can't do high damage might as well be replaced. Using pve gear in the ring,neck,bracer,belt and boot slots is nothing to be ashamed off as these items tend to offer more balanced stats.
It entirely depends on your battlegroup, some you need 11,000-12,000 health and 350+ resilience, others you're fine with 10,000 and 275-300 reslience because they don't realize you can kill a Rogue easly.
It's not eally a mistake to focus on survivability, it's covered pretty well in the Rogue PvP topic.
I've got about 10.8k HP and I'm currently subbing OUT Elunes for more resi (currently 360) and dps stats. Once you get to a level where you can survive some burst while a healer is CC'd, resilience is more valuable than stam.
QR is amazingly valuable and it's what I'm going to miss most going to Maces this week.
Re: poisons.
Always always carry a spare OH and put Crippling / Mind Numbing on your main/spare as per your needs. If I'm focusing a warrior's target, I'll shiv MN over Crip as standard, since Hamstring is good enough.
Then make a macro that swaps your OH weapon (I use Warp Splinter's thorn as my spare, since it's 1.4 speed). I have one that swaps OH then swaps back when pressed again. So I can shiv two poisons on. It's probably the best thing I ever did for my PvP utility (being able to snare and 'tongues' is amazingly useful, esp. now MN lasts longer than tongues).
For Maces I'm going to use Blackout Truncheon.
Another thing to remember about Mutilate poisons is this: you need your target to be poisoned to do good dps, of course. However- when a target has BoF, they're immune to Crippling and when they have a Mortal Strike on them, they're immune to Wound. You can either put a single Mind Numb on them to Mutilate off, but it's very easy to cleanse a single layer (depending on your Vile level). Your only other option is Deadly, which is great, and does good damage, but stops you gouging. Something to bear in mind.
I'm also going to weapon chain my spare OH for the few times I meet people who try to disarm me (I use double mongoose most of the time for PvE reasons as much as anything else).
I have a question though - how valuable do people consider 5% parry + Riposte and what do you give up for it? I've seen that Xechs takes it and gives up 1/3 SnD and 2/3 Aggression for example... any thoughts?
I had and still have Riposte, though I'm leaning forward to spec away from it. To be honest it is a great talent, but only against other rogues and maybe hunters. It is cheap and I had crits up to 1,5k, but well it is more a solo/grinding talent. You wont disarm any serious MS warrior and if you catch a rogue with the disarm, he is just going to shiv you.
Regarding weapon chains, I never used them and probably never will. A warrior never disarmed me, and if I meet a rogue with riposte I always switch targets shiving crippling or mind-numbing.
As I am also doing some PvE (Vashj ATM) these 6 points are more and more a waste for me, giving me another reason to spec away.
Er, Riposte isn't just for the disarm, it's an incredibly strong instant attack for 10 energy. All Battlegroups are riddled with PvE server teams that do quite well, and very often those warriors have decided to dip into more Flurry and sometimes 0 or even 1 point into their weapon talent. This is also true for rogues, you'll find quite a few who are rocking double mongoose. For combat dagger I can see passing it up, but not heavy swords, maces or fists.
I won't argue the necessity of having 3/3 Imp SnD if you're still raiding a lot though, but if you're spec'ing for PvP I would never pass it up.
Edit: Sorry, I somehow read that "Cheap" as it being unsportsmanslike instead of it being good damage for 10 energy. But I still think you're discounting how powerful 1k+ hits are for 10 energy. That's another instant strike that's going to proc mace or sword spec.
My goals are 9500 HP and 300 rsl, 1500 AP 25% crit and at least 7% hit (though I don't think more is wasted in PVP given how hard it is to burst someone down). I'm not there yet and I run with way too much hit in PVP (16% right now), but it's not too far away. Good goals or should I adjust anything?
I just got my s2 dagger so I'm pretty committed to staying Mutilate, though I was tempted to go combat maces. I know the spec gets weaker as my opponents get stronger, but for my balance of PVE and PVP I think it was my best choice.
I tend to play initial disruption (sap + stun), then burst (renataki's with cold blood mutilate), then disruption for the rest of the game (kick, stun, gouge).
You actually have to contort pretty hard to keep Riposte + get everything else you need - it costs 1 point in Imp Evis(who cares), all of Murder(sorta sucks), and 1 point in Lethality(definitely sucks). I've found that it's worth the sacrifice to keep it, but many other rogues won't agree.
You actually have to contort pretty hard to keep Riposte + get everything else you need - it costs 1 point in Imp Evis(who cares), all of Murder(sorta sucks), and 1 point in Lethality(definitely sucks). I've found that it's worth the sacrifice to keep it, but many other rogues won't agree.
Its a bit of an interesting discussion, in the lower rated fights riposte is a kick ass ability, but in the ratings I usually play my opponents will be immune to disarm. I also decided to drop it completely so I can be a combat sword rogue with 4/5 envenom so my poisons are alot harder to dispell although I am fairly disappointed with this talent as at times my poisons still get knocked off like mad. I might be speccing back into it just for the extra 5% damage mitigation the parry offers but thats about it, riposte in itself really starts to be a debatable talent when you know your targets are disarm immune and you give up 6 talent points just to get it. I'll play a bit with riposte this week again though if I can build a decent spec around it with the talents I want, interested in using it in 2 vs 2 again.
07/24/07, 12:23 PM
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