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Old 04/11/08, 2:40 PM   #1501
ildon
Collateral Damage
 
ildon's Avatar
 
Undead Priest
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by LodeRunner View Post
I find the whole Rogue PvP situation sort of a cruel twist of fate. My main is my Warrior, as is linked in my profile. That's what I raid on and do arenas on half the time. Therefore, the Warrior has full access to full PvE and PvP gear. Warriors, however, are quite content to be in mostly PvP gear for arenas.

I leveled my Rogue pretty much specifically as a PvP toy. Mainly I wanted him to have the Taskmaster hat from Season 2 when that came out. Since then I've found I enjoy Rogue arena play as much as Warrior arena play, but my Rogue does not and probably will never have access to good PvE gear. The bane of my Disc Priest/ShS 2v2 team is, of course, Warrior/Druid. The best way to beat this team is for me to stack heavy PvE gear and burn the Warrior down. Sadly that's just not feasible in my situation. I'm not really sure where this is going other than me considering my options.

The only consistent team I can get together for my Rogue is my 2v2. We started a PMR team and played like 15 games 3 weeks ago and haven't played since, and it's downright hellish to try and schedule 5v5. When my Disc Priest goes Shadow (and he really really really wants to go Shadow) we just end up losing huge amounts of points. Maybe it's because I'm shadowstep with PvP gear? Maybe I need to pick up daggers and go Mutilate with all this PvP gear. I guess I'm trying to figure out where to go from here.

If you're using full PvP gear with a disc priest spec combat. Combat allows you to toe-to-toe with warriors, and put out massive amounts of pressure. Popping AR right off the bat while your priest is mounted and fear bombs a druid makes it very easy to force a trinket, and forcing the trinket is what rogue/disc priest is all about anyway. Not to mention RNG if you have maces, making taking warriors head on that much easier. The truth is ShS is a completely subpar spec for this comp, you just don't have the pressure it takes to be able force trinkets, pressure people into healing ( IE. stopping druids from drinking ) etc. unless you have full pve gear, as you already seem to have figured out. Even then mutilate/combat are still superior. Priests don't have the efficiency and mobility to play the same outlast style rogue/druid does. Mutilate is probably the best spec for you regardless though, it has good poison uptime against druid/x teams, and the ability to put massive pressure on somebody during a fear with 5 cp KS, CB mutilate mutilate eviscerate. You just need to learn to adjust to people who are smart enough to back peddle.

Forgot to mention: You'll get fucking manhandled by double dps teams if you're ShS with a priest and wearing a lot of PvE gear once they notice.

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Old 04/11/08, 3:30 PM   #1502
Miyamota
Glass Joe
 
Miyamota's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Tosa View Post
I've been running rogue/druid for a few weeks now. Maybe we're just horrible, but we can't get higher than 1820 with my druid either NS+Moonkin or cookie-cutter resto. Warrior/healer and Warlock/healer don't feel like pushovers. Warlock/healer feels impossible if their healer is very good. Most of the times we've won against that comp is when they seem to play poorly or if we simply outgear them.

And then there's 2-dps, which my druid just can't seem to live through. I try my best to vanish and cloak through their ccs, but even just 1 mistake and my druid dies and it's, at best, a 1v1. (We've won a few games where my druid is the first to go down.)

2-dps (any 2-dps, even like disc priest+xyz with the priest dpsing) almost feels like a counter comp. Can someone please tell me what we're doing wrong?
I play with a 2.1-2.2k rogue/druid on Whirlwind, we run the Dreamstate/resto spec, a.k.a. restokin.

Warrior/healer has varying degrees of difficulty based on the healer type, and of course, player skill. Pally/warrior should be very easy. Your druid is a pally-destroying machine, and if you're shadowstep, so are you. Get on the warrior, sap pally first if he's not using BoSac. Use your serrated blades to your advantage, and keep up rupture on that warrior, use ghostly strike/evasion early on, so your druid can throw up insect swarm/moonfire DoT/a couple wraths/cyclone chain on pally. This same strategy applies to warrior/druid, and (lol) warrior/priest. By doing this, you put the enemy in a defensive place, where they have to dump mana, or throw on a shield (effectively doing less dps to you, ergo saving you mana). From here it's the PvP equivalent of a tank n' spank.

Warlock/Healer should be easy as well, it could be a skill issue on the part of your druid, or yourself. I'd recommend sticking to the warlock, setting the druid as your focus target to watch his cyclone casts (if you see 'em, vanish or cloak), and generally doing your best to stop the lock from doing anything but instant casts. Your druid should make love to a pillar, keeping insect swarm/moonfire on the pet (melee it if he's omen of clarity/moonkin form). He can even cyclone the pet if you've got the lock in a low spot, or a long blind on the enemy druid, that'll remove SL long enough for you to get some heavy hits in. Eventually the pet will fall behind (since you're druid is LoSing it's heals), and you can get some drinks in. This fight is all about freeing up your druid to drink, and not letting theirs do so. Once the lock is OOM, he's borrowing mana from his healer, stop the healer from regenning while yours does so unhindered, and it's GG. Same goes for druid(or priest/hunter.


general notes:

As ShS, make sure you have a focus shadowstep/kick macro.
Focus blind is useful as well.
Know the difference between zerg dps mode, and saving your energy to kick/gouge a fear mode.

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Old 04/11/08, 5:34 PM   #1503
wow
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by LodeRunner View Post
I find the whole Rogue PvP situation sort of a cruel twist of fate. My main is my Warrior, as is linked in my profile. That's what I raid on and do arenas on half the time. Therefore, the Warrior has full access to full PvE and PvP gear. Warriors, however, are quite content to be in mostly PvP gear for arenas.

I leveled my Rogue pretty much specifically as a PvP toy. Mainly I wanted him to have the Taskmaster hat from Season 2 when that came out. Since then I've found I enjoy Rogue arena play as much as Warrior arena play, but my Rogue does not and probably will never have access to good PvE gear. The bane of my Disc Priest/ShS 2v2 team is, of course, Warrior/Druid. The best way to beat this team is for me to stack heavy PvE gear and burn the Warrior down. Sadly that's just not feasible in my situation. I'm not really sure where this is going other than me considering my options.

The only consistent team I can get together for my Rogue is my 2v2. We started a PMR team and played like 15 games 3 weeks ago and haven't played since, and it's downright hellish to try and schedule 5v5. When my Disc Priest goes Shadow (and he really really really wants to go Shadow) we just end up losing huge amounts of points. Maybe it's because I'm shadowstep with PvP gear? Maybe I need to pick up daggers and go Mutilate with all this PvP gear. I guess I'm trying to figure out where to go from here.
It's not tier 6, but I created a set of easily obtainable badge/heroic/rep gear which puts you at a level of armor pen/AP very, very close to rogues with access to PvE offset pieces while still maintaining a decent amount of resilience: CTProfiles.net: World of Warcraft Profiles » Qazdia » test22 (Yes, I stole Qazdia on ctprofiles, i'm not him )

I know 8 agility gems are better theorycraft wise but I gemmed it with agility first and AP second and I personally prefer the 60 ap to the 1.5% crit and a bit of dodge. Planning on getting this gear and using it fulltime, it's about 200 more AP than your standard shadowstep rogue and ~250 more armor pen, i'm also a great fan of the shattered sun exalted necklace proc in pvp.

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Old 04/12/08, 12:41 AM   #1504
LodeRunner
Just an excitable boy
 
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Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by ildon View Post
If you're using full PvP gear with a disc priest spec combat.
Combat is tempting, but because HARP was dead and Subtlety doesn't use weapon specs I grabbed the S3 Fists; they looked cooler. Frankly, at the time, that's all that mattered. I still have my S2 maces, and two fully enchanted daggers from ZA. I'll probably look into getting S3 Daggers and going 41/20/0 Mutilate.


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Old 04/14/08, 11:46 PM   #1505
Fcukstar
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Dunemaul
I don't see how combat can be useful at all unless you sacrifice 5 points for MoD. The damage is great, but without perception I don't see how any rogue pvp that doesn't pick up MoD can be considered useful at all.

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Old 04/15/08, 1:15 AM   #1506
Wesker
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Area 52
As we get higher and higher resilience I'm beginning to rethink a lot of my itemization options and I'm thinking about dropping the pvp neck/rings and possibly some other pieces for some more offensively oriented pve pieces. The reason i'm mention the neck and rings specifically is they are two pieces which lack agi. Stacking agi shows increasing gains, obviously the more crit you have the more valuable ap becomes, and the more ap becomes the more valuable crit becomes, thus we all know agi can be a wonderful stat to stack on gems/enchants. Avoidance also shows increasing gains, while its usefulness in pvp is subject to debate; for me it is just icing on the cake.

Specifically I was considering saving for Angelista's Revenge/Signet of Primal Wrath and grinding for Shattered Sun Pendant(unfortunately i'm scryer, from what i've heard the aldor neck is far better, I also don't have access to kael/brutalus necks or i'd probably use those over it) instead of using the S4 equivalents when they come out. Is anyone else thinking the same?

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Old 04/15/08, 3:14 AM   #1507
Stienz
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Burning Legion (EU)
Originally Posted by Wesker View Post
As we get higher and higher resilience I'm beginning to rethink a lot of my itemization options and I'm thinking about dropping the pvp neck/rings and possibly some other pieces for some more offensively oriented pve pieces. The reason i'm mention the neck and rings specifically is they are two pieces which lack agi. Stacking agi shows increasing gains, obviously the more crit you have the more valuable ap becomes, and the more ap becomes the more valuable crit becomes, thus we all know agi can be a wonderful stat to stack on gems/enchants. Avoidance also shows increasing gains, while its usefulness in pvp is subject to debate; for me it is just icing on the cake.

Specifically I was considering saving for Angelista's Revenge/Signet of Primal Wrath and grinding for Shattered Sun Pendant(unfortunately i'm scryer, from what i've heard the aldor neck is far better, I also don't have access to kael/brutalus necks or i'd probably use those over it) instead of using the S4 equivalents when they come out. Is anyone else thinking the same?
I was thinking exactly the same to be honest. I still wear almost full pvp gear (4/5 vengefull, all vindicator pieces except 1 ring and bloodlust brooch and I need more dps output. I was also thinking of getting better weapons (hopefully s4 weapons), Angelista's Revenge and the Shattered Sun Pendant (I am Aldor). I think I'll stick with the bloodlust brooch and prolly new honor gear in the future. Girdle of the Deathdealer is something I will also use in setup were its not likely that I am being focused. Its not a bad thing to stack dps stats and I even dropped below 350 resilience in some setups.

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Old 04/15/08, 9:26 AM   #1508
Fcukstar
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Dunemaul
Agreed. Once you hit a certain resil/stamina cap (300+ res and 10k+ hp) swapping out PvP gear for some PvE gear should be a good idea.

Specifically I've been looking at the Shattered Sun Offensive Exalted Neck. The Scryer version has a chance to deal 200-400 damage and it can crit while the Aldor one has a chance to proc +200 AP for 10 seconds. I've also been looking at the Alchemist's Stone for the passive +119 AP, since I often forget to activate AP trinkets in fast-paced arena matches.

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Old 04/15/08, 10:31 AM   #1509
LodeRunner
Just an excitable boy
 
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Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Fcukstar View Post
Agreed. Once you hit a certain resil/stamina cap (300+ res and 10k+ hp) swapping out PvP gear for some PvE gear should be a good idea.

Specifically I've been looking at the Shattered Sun Offensive Exalted Neck. The Scryer version has a chance to deal 200-400 damage and it can crit while the Aldor one has a chance to proc +200 AP for 10 seconds. I've also been looking at the Alchemist's Stone for the passive +119 AP, since I often forget to activate AP trinkets in fast-paced arena matches.
I would not use the Alchemist stone for that. The secondary effect of it is completely useless since you won't have any potions. I say you're better off, in that case, with a Battlemaster trinket. If you don't like that, get the [Shard of Contempt]. It's that good.
Alternately if you have a Brooch/Berserker's Call and you can't remember to use them, I suggest adding a 'use trinket' command to a Kidney Shot macro. Maybe /castsequence Kidney Shot, Bloodlust Brooch would work so you just mash KS and after you stun them you start unloading. Really though, the more arenas you play, the more times you think "oh this would be a good time to burn, I wish I had some burst", and that's when you reach for the brooch/zerker.


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Old 04/15/08, 11:04 AM   #1510
Zavior
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Haomarush (EU)
How good would that [Shard of Contempt] really be? Players can not dodge from behind, casters wont parry while casting(and usually have very low avoidance anyway). it does help against warriors/other rogues yes, but you should always try to fight them from behind if possible. I dont know how good the proc is, but I feel that trinkets that have +ap on activation might be better.

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Old 04/15/08, 11:10 AM   #1511
Cos-
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Silver Hand
Originally Posted by Zavior View Post
How good would that [Shard of Contempt] really be? Players can not dodge from behind, casters wont parry while casting(and usually have very low avoidance anyway). it does help against warriors/other rogues yes, but you should always try to fight them from behind if possible. I dont know how good the proc is, but I feel that trinkets that have +ap on activation might be better.
If it was that easy fewer people would still be complaining about mutilate. Not to mention trying to gouge a caster and seeing that awesome 5% dodge come into play is just crappy. On Use trinkets always feel like AR etc to me, obvious enough to get dispelled or just have people run the hell away from you. I had my SSO neck and Hyjal ring self buffs dispelled constantly last week.

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Old 04/15/08, 11:18 AM   #1512
Zavior
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Haomarush (EU)
From what I played as mutilate(granted, I went back to shadowstep shortly, mutilate isn't the best spec for dru/warr/rog) the biggest difficulty was that as soon as people recognize that you are mutilate, you will get trained down. You simply do not have the survivability or sustained damage that shs got. I do play with very low latency, that might affect my opinion on the positional requirement.

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Old 04/15/08, 11:44 AM   #1513
Nobbert
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
The Underbog
Originally Posted by Zavior View Post
From what I played as mutilate(granted, I went back to shadowstep shortly, mutilate isn't the best spec for dru/warr/rog) the biggest difficulty was that as soon as people recognize that you are mutilate, you will get trained down. You simply do not have the survivability or sustained damage that shs got. I do play with very low latency, that might affect my opinion on the positional requirement.
I recent specced to shadowstep from mutilate to give it a try; basically your scenario in opposite. My problem with shadowstep, coming from mutilate, was the complete lack of on demand burst damage. I play with a RL friend in 2s and he is a pally. I know this is not the ideal composition, but we generally just wait it out until an opportunity presents itself and then drop all stuns/trinkets and burst them from 70 to 0. I love the ability to move and stay alive with ShS, and I understand how they can really benefit in the larger team dynamics for sustained damage regardless of focus, but I really had a hard time parting from the burst.

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Old 04/15/08, 1:52 PM   #1514
Tower
King Hippo
 
Undead Rogue
 
Blackhand
What ShS lacks in pressing 2 buttons in succession and getting huge numbers you make up for in mobility, survivability and personal utility. While Mutilate has more burst from yellow hits, ShS has the utility options to make more burst opportunities - which totally makes up for the lack of straight up big yellows.

With resilience remaining constant, and crit capped, and the gear gap for straight pvpers and pvers who pvp being the smallest it's ever been, ShS has gotten better and better. I've posted a couple times about how Disc Priest/ShS Rogue doesn't work unless you're raider, but even that has changed with badge vendors opening up and a couple ZA pieces here and there. Smart players are doing better and better as the learning curve for becoming a good ShS rogue is higher than other specs, but you can see the results.

Get EA up, drop a point or 2 on SnD and communicate with your partner to get a CC chain going. Once that opportunity shows itself you'll be able to capitalize a lot more often with the lockdown options that prep brings. the ability to stay on target with ShS, along with punishing white damage and quite larger yellow hits on low hp targets. Mutilate is still a one trick pony, so is 41 in combat. If you're honestly not trying to get better at being a ShS rogue, it is my feeling you're capping yourself on what kind of ratings you can achieve, as well as hurting yourself in the long run of rogue PvP. It's clearly impossible to tell what Blizzard has in store for new talents in the expansion, but I have a feeling they're going to lean on Subtlety to be the main focus for PvP options.

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Old 04/16/08, 1:34 PM   #1515
Cebuu
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
The Forgotten Coast
I'm in a bit of a unique situation, as I haven't touched a rogue since Naxx. I've played a warrior throughout BC and play him competitively in Arena to this day. I rolled a rogue for all the reasons I despised a warrior, originally, being that the rage system is the complete opposite of the energy system. With rogues, CC and general control and utility came about as easy as the dps did. I've now rerolled with a druid friend to try out a 2's combo I've found relatively rare.

The advantages of Moonkin/Rogue are multiple CC's, huge burst, and survivability. While he sits at higher armor then my warrior, he can shift out of snares, is immune to polymorph, has very reliable CC's with cyclone and roots, and has treants for the trap bait and spell pushback. Specced ShS I will have all the mobility and utility that the tree offers, as well as having FF, insect swarm, and MF to help deal with cleanses(not so much abolsh).

I'd love to hear opinions or even past experiences to see how this combo has worked out for others.

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