Zandig

PvPing post-patch on 3.1, I have to wonder how long it is until Overkill gets changed. With Overkill and the mutilate glyph, rogues can rip out an absurd amount of damage using vanish offensively.

I'm not exactly complaining, since I've felt gimped up until now, but I don't see this lasting forever.

 

daxter32

I agree is seems that the mutilate glyph really really good. I did notice a huge difference in my burst with that setup If i had some better daggers I can only imagine. The glyph I was wondering about was for deep assasination pve. Would rupture, mutilate, and S&D be a good setup for major glyphs, or should i try to fit hfb in there. I can see the first being better toward energy management but is that better than the 3% dmg increase. thoughts?

 

Zandig

It's a little off topic, but you definitely would want to swap HfB for SnD, and maybe even ToTT for rupture. With decent gear and raid buffs, keeping SnD and rupture up will be no problem.

 

daxter32

Sorry for getting off topic. Thanks though .

 

Grunge

There's not much in the increase of burst, since energy is still the main limiter.

I think that the main gem for me so far has been Bandit's Insignia (and soon Death deck) which provides extra burst to your opener.

I underestimated it's potential and it has now replaced my Greatness deck.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

HLG

Hey, I'm a PvP newb and I got some questions concerning talent specs.

I'm considering trying out an SA/Prep setup but I am not sure about viability of combat potency and deadliness/savage combat.

Is Combat potency really worth taking for PvP? Wouldnt it be better to put it in throwing spec or even unfair advantage?

On a similar note, how good is Unfair advantage in PvP. Is it crucial for a combat spec?

Second, does Deadliness and Savage combat stack? Would it be better to take 3/5 Deadliness and 2/2 Savage Combat than say 5/5 Deadliness?

 

Grunge

I do believe it stacks, although I haven't tested it since Beta.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

amele

Grunge, you may not be able to answer this but it's been something I've been wondering about since I'm considering moving off of engineering.

If you were an engineer, how does Death stack up against the new GLG in your opinion? If you weren't ever an Engineer, do you have any tips for handling stealth battles against engineers in goggles?

 

croenaur

hola guys! in season four i was 4/5 brutal and pvp was a big part of the game for me. as of now i've leaned more towards pve. from reading here i've taken the initiative to make my glg and bought my first honor piece and got the battlemasters trinket. my question is as follows:

in what order should i purchase new pvp gear? not arena gear. i'm in mostly 25 man naxx gear in general. some heroic/valorous badge gear as well. i know rogues don't necessarily need as much pvp gear as most considering we don't benefit from stacking a ton of resilience, we are more about burst. just wondering what pieces of pve to keep and what pieces of pvp to pick up. thank you for your time.

 

Grunge

Although I was never a engineer, with the 3.1 change (10 sec shared cd) you're probably best off with Handrockets+Death/Bandit's.

As for stealth battles vs rogues with goggles, you can't win, unless you outmaneuver them or rush with sprint+vanish-> opening on their partner.
Since you'd get opened on regardless you're better off taking the initiative.

Most efficient order would probably be: Belt/Boots > Bracers > Ring > Cloak > Neck.
However it really depends on what kind of gear you have in those slots. Ie if you have a awesome belt and a horrible ring then ring would be a "better" upgrade.

As for PvE gear, in general less is better, if you're playing with a healer.
However when playing with DPS, it really depends on how much/little you're comfortable with.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Humbaba

I played some games with a disc priest on my alt rogue last week and while we did quite well, we fared poorly against mirrors and mage/rogue. I think this was mostly due to my poor handling of other rogues. I have goggles and I was able to get the opener a few times, but apparently I'm bad at opening because sap -> cs -> mut -> ks resulted in me getting countered pretty easily. I've read that a sap -> garrote -> vanish -> cs - > mut -> ks is another option. Any suggestions for someone that's pretty much a noob at rogue vs rogue fights?

 

liquidroyl

Can you elaborate ? What do you mean specifically by getting countered? My personal preference (speaking as a 2200 MMR rogue) assuming a standard Mutilate spec is to open cs->mut->rupture. I prefer Rupture over Garrote opening because I stink at tracking movement, and being able to disarm right as cheap shot wears off without fear of dodge or parry is nice. Garrote is better that Rupture when it comes to preventing a restealth (automatic 18s versus 16s at 5 points for Rupture), but Rupture hits harder, and you get a lot of value from CS. Having 4 seconds to tee off on a rogue with dispel / dps support from your priest is often enough to force some defensive cooldowns. I would definitely NOT recommend using the cs->mut->KS sequence you describe, because you are wasting time on your CS by overlapping durations with Kidney.

 

Slickshoes

Getting the sap is crucial of course. I prefer to rupture after the CS and sneak in a dismantle before CS is done. At this point if they blow vanish they are just wasting cooldowns and you're already way ahead. Not to mention you still have your KS up and resteathling after it into another CS is brutal for any rogue.

 

Grunge

What's the benefit of a Dismantle before CS is done? They can still vanish and CS (it doesn't require a weapon).
I guess it does prevent them from Gouging you if you don't use Kidney, but I'd rather save it as a defensive CD.

As for Kidney in the initial opening, it has the benefit that more often than not the rogue will trinket, especially if his priest is sapped->feared.
This leaves him open for blind->switch to priest->sap rogue->fear.
While you probably won't kill the priest during that time (although there is a chance) it gives you a tremendous advantage in the mana-war.
Just be sure not to let the rogue restealth after the fear.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Javadocs

Cheap Shot does require a weapon. If you're on the offensive, you might as well blow your defensive cooldowns to put more pressure on them. Playing against a mirror priest/rogue is the hardest when you have to get back on your feet from being opened on first.

Speaking of which, what is everyone's method of finding other rogues? And do you have a sap macro?

 

Slickshoes

The benefit to dismantling right before CS is done is that it has 100% chance of landing. If you wait they will more than likely pop evasion and you have probably about a 50% of dismantle actually landing. Also at this point you have a rogue that cannot stealth and cannot attack for at least 5 seconds. Believe it or not this throws a lot of rogues off because they are expecting a KS. I've actually seen rogues instinctively blow trinkets.

Cheap shot does infact require a melee weapon as the tooltip states.

Mashable sap macro and be unpredictable.

 

Javadocs

You mean this macro?
I tried using the macro with /console TargetNearestDistance in it but apparently that command was removed from the console, so that one is a no go.

As for being unpredictable, are you basically saying, "Don't walk in a straight line"?

 

Slickshoes

#showtooltip Sap
/targetenemy [harm][nodead]
/targetenemy [noharm][dead]
/cast Sap


That is the macro I use. Unfortunately if you are looking for a rogue near another enemy player it will sap them if they are in range leaving you open to a sap in that GCD.

By being unpredictable I mean take a weird angle or move to a position that you think is behind the enemy rogue. 9/10 I can find other rogues just by going to where I think would be the least likely place.

 

advanced

I'm currently looking at the top 10 arena teams seeing alot of priest/mage + Rogue, take a look at my current talent calculator and see if this could be possiblyh "viable" Vs.those other teams

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Imp.Eviscerate Vs. Ruthlessness: i for one would prefer 20% more damage on that burst while my priest is fearing their healer with the recent nerf i'm wondering if MC would be a better opener for CC then blind after, to be totally honest i like to get my fights over rather quick and i think with imp.Eviscerate its possible (even with a healer)

Setup Vs.Camouflage/Elusiveness: although the cooldown on blind/CloS is nice i think with the current standings on the arena your chances of facing a rogue or even a warrior are extremely high, now when you evasion against this you're adding CP's to your target getting enough to get that extra finisher either Rupture or Eviscerate, this is also good against mages who blink and start to open, if you pop CloS and they miss/resist you've got a CP or two, in my opinion get a deadly throw in to snare them gives you alot of time to get closer again.

I do believe the above has been previously discussed at some point but my only real debate is Master of Subt.Vs.30% offhand damage

Obviously you can't guarantee some fights will be over as quick as you would like but would adding 10% to your initial burst be greater than 30% offhand damage? Especially with the current Mutilate costs and you being able to use vanish offensively

 

Javadocs

I actually have 2 sap binds, one for stealthies and one for the others. For the rogue/druid one, I put in a /cleartarget because even if I happen to be close to their partner, it will clear that target and perhaps target the rogue (who would be closer to me than his partner).

 

liquidroyl

Expect Pri/Rogue to make a decline and DPS/rDruid to show up a bit more. Fortunately the DPS in that comp will likely be a melee so your points still stand.

Imp. Eviscerate versus Ruthlessness: Speaking statistically, more rogues get Imp. Eviscerate than get Ruthlessness, especially when playing with a Priest. The standing argument for this i believe is that Ruthlessness will sometimes be wasted because of the random nature of Mutilate crits and the tendency to use a lot of 4/5 combo point finishers compared to a combat spec. I'm pretty sure this is accepted as standard now, basically.

Setup versus Camouflage/Elusiveness: As I said before, combo points for mutilate are cheap, so getting a talent that gives you more of something you're rich on and takes away something you are relatively poorer in (defensive abilities) seems like a mistake to me. Discard the idea of getting procs from magic resists immediately. It is very hard to justify popping cloak for some extras CPs instead of saving it for critical situations where you would otherwise die.

Master of Subtlety versus Dual Wield Spec: I actually think this has the most merit of all simply because it can randomly end games if you are already cheating towards PvE gear and are an Engineer. I'm not going to bother with back-of-the-napkin math, but I think it's safe to assume that 10% overall damage increases outpaces the DPS loss from 30% OH damage on white and mutilate damage during the 6s opener.

 

Offelia, Rogue

Afternoon all,

My first post on EJ so please forgive me if I’ve missed something already posted in another forum, I’ve done my best to look over the majority of the pve and pvp rogue stuff.

With that qualifier, what I’m trying to do get some advise on a truly mace spec-ed pvp build for rogues. The build I posted is not a cookie cutter build but is similar to the sword build posted on shadowpanther.net.

What I’ve come up with so far is this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

For the moment I stick to BGs and world PvP (though I usually keep a live and let live thing there – always hated having my quests messed up by some jackass that isn’t even getting honor off the kill). I’ve become completely dependent on the extra points from Premeditation and love the quick easy Hemo backhand for setting up combo points. I just felt starved for CPs the few times I tried deep combat or Mutilate specs. Have never felt stressed about energy – playing a hunter for a good while cured me of that issue long ago.

I was hoping that someone with more pvp experience could take a look at the build and offer some suggestions.

The changes I’m unsure about are:
1. Is the 15% armor reduction noticeable – the “mace specs” I’ve seen posted are by-and-large weapon neutral?
2. Would it be worth dropping points out of Sinister Calling into Deadened Nerves? Which tends to have a higher impact on survivability?
3. Dropping Weapon Expertise and Blade Twisting in favor of HaT, but wasn’t sure how extra combo points balance against the daze/hit potential. The primary target of this build is the shielded plate wearer and I’m fresh enough to the 80 BGs that I’m far off my expertise cap.
4. Dropping the Deflection and Repost set in favor of maximizing Precision and Cheat Death (or even picking back up Shadowstep). What set has a bigger impact on survivability, assuming I don’t botch my Vanish.

Thanks in advance – have a great day.

 

advanced

To be totally honest i really can't see how this spec would benifit you at all, first off ArP doesn't benifit as much in PvP as it does in PvE for example lets say this certain DK has 20k armour, 15% ignore would make it 17k armour which doesn't uphold much reduction.

With Hemorrhage as your main attack there would be no way Blade Twisting would even be worth the points, i can see it seems to be a good idea but cheap/kidney shot are your stuns, poisons are your snares (crippling).

Improved sap and heightened senses are a definate must have in pvp or rogues will just eat you alive.

Personally if i were to go Subt.spec i'd pretty much go with daggers and hit down to Shadow Dance, its sleek, secure and easy to place yourself shadowstep being one of your main abilities for a Spambush which basically has around 70-90% crit chance dependant on gear.

 

vellon

I have a few questions about gear selection, specifically trinkets in 2s. I am currently running a mutiRogue/rDruid setup. We're both relatively new to the arena, only started playing halfway through season 5. Currently we're working on improving our timing on our cyclone->cyclone->blind CC chain. I digress.

atm my resilience is at 660. I swapped out my Medallion of the Horde for the new Titan-Forged Rune of Domination to increase my damage, and my second trinket is Battlemaster's Conviction (Soon to be replaced with Undeath deck) My question is, is 660 resilience (and 20.7k hp unbuffed) enough for my comp? I don't feel overly squishy but I'm wondering if I am giving my healer more stress than is needed.

 

Offelia, Rogue

Fair enough - and thanks for your input. What I need help with is roughing out an actual Mace spec build.

I completely understand that for min/maxing a Subtlety build, Daggers/Smapbush is the way to go. The stuns are my bread and butter - though I skipped improved Sap, the BSs just move too fast for it to be of my use in my experience.

I’ll certainly tinker with Shadow Dance at some point, I’m currently using a slightly modified HaT raid build right now and love it. Unfortunately there just aren’t enough points to get SD in it.

Good to know about twisting blades, is that because it procs off of auto attack? Again, with the build I was trying to sort out, my primary targets are the 20k Armor opponents. So the aim was to survive longer fights and have a bit of damage mitigation.

Again thanks, please keep the comments coming.