[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Page 104

Grunge · 05/18/09, 9:20 PM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

Does anyone now a method or addon which can reliable show the global cool down of another player including latency ? I think that especially in rogue vs. rogue a method showing the time in which the other player cannot do something except moving and using non gcd-based abilities would give an great advantage.

I highly doubt that would be feasible, since due to player1-server-player2 communications.

Hildegard · 05/18/09, 9:43 PM

That was the same problem I was seeing. The point is the time window. Let's take a Cheap Shot as example. The example may not be perfect strategywise but focus on the time windows. The other rogue cheap shots you, his gcd is starting, you have your reaction time (depending on the play but not lower 0.1 seconds), to counter the move now 0.9 seconds would be there in a lag-free environement to hit the insignia, vanish, turn around cheap shot. While one second seems very fast to to do four things a lot of rogues are actually capable of doing so.

So the question is how does lag fit in the equation.

I explain how I understand the mechanic and hope for some correction or agreement.

- Enemy Rogue opens 0.0 seconds
- due to 100ms lag at 0.1 my computer shows me that my character is afflicted by Cheap Shot
- assuming my reaction is very good I press the insignia 0.1 seconds later
- due to lag at 0.3 seconds I am freed of the lag and am able to Vanish
- at 0.4 I can start turning around and cheap shot

Is this assumption is correct than I would like to start an discussion about the timing involved in a lot of the rogue tricks like blinding out of Vanish oder vanishing death coils. I would like to understand in detail during which time frame I get death coiled out of Vanish and during which time frame I vanish the death coil.

I did some research on forums but the best that I could find is that no rogue, not even Neylio, can actually do this consistent and luck is involved. As we speak about a process that involves lag I suspect that lag and server priorities are the key points to understand how these tricks actually can be reproduced reliably.

mofidik · 05/19/09, 3:40 AM

Originally Posted by Hildegard

I did some research on forums but the best that I could find is that no rogue, not even Neylio, can actually do this consistent and luck is involved. As we speak about a process that involves lag I suspect that lag and server priorities are the key points to understand how these tricks actually can be reproduced reliably.

This, pretty much. While it is true certain frapsheroes have amazingly fast reaction times, the things you see in their videos where they gouge trinkets etc. are pretty much "staged". It's not to say that it's physically impossible for them to replicate, but the reason you see them doing it 10 times in one video is because they duelled 50 times. It's mostly about anticipating what an opponent will do and then act almost pre-emptively to it, which obviously means that in a lot of cases the rogue you're fighting didn't trinket that CS and you just blinded him for no reason at all.

Now while I don't see much merit in a bar on your screen that goes too fast to even glance at unless you already posses the "gut feeling" to track GCDs, it would also be of use in a limited amount of situations. beyond RvR duels there aren't too many cases where an opponents global really matters (vanishing on warriors comes to mind, but that's really about it). Trying to pull such little clutch plays really just takes away from your overall game in my opinion, and even in the cases you do gouge a trinket successfully in an arena match you're better off being a more consistent rogue overall.

Hildegard · 05/19/09, 8:06 AM

What I would like is tracking the time windows in which happens what. So how exactly does the lag factor in ?

Majingshi · 05/19/09, 8:27 AM

Originally Posted by Ozzmar

Question for you: Is your preference for maces just because those are the best weapons you have? Cause, like a previous poster said, Armor Pen isn't that huge of a stat in PVP. Don't go that deep into Combat just for Mace Spec.

Like you, I tend to only do Battlegrounds, and I've had a lot of luck with this spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It's not perfect (I'm no spec expert), but despite being in only PVE gear, I do surprisingly well against well-geared plate classes in PVP. Glyphed Vigor is great for huge opening combos, Cold Blood -> Eviscerate after a Shadowstep can hit pretty hard, and you get tons of survivability from the Sub tree.

Just a suggestion for you to consider if you're sporting some sexy maces.

I disagree with armor pen not being useful in PvP. My white crits on a DK went from 400 with daggers Mutilate spec, to 1k damage with maces. A 7/51/13 build. This build uses KS, with KS glyph, Evis glyph, and SS glyph. Great for picking off any character who finds themselves alone.

I do however agree with the pvp build you posted. That looks like a great spec.

Chaggi · 05/19/09, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by Majingshi

I disagree with armor pen not being useful in PvP. My white crits on a DK went from 400 with daggers Mutilate spec, to 1k damage with maces. A 7/51/13 build. This build uses KS, with KS glyph, Evis glyph, and SS glyph. Great for picking off any character who finds themselves alone.

I do however agree with the pvp build you posted. That looks like a great spec.

I'm pretty sure Armor Pen is capped at a certain point, I'm not sure if the use of Maces does that. But at 15% reduction with 5/5, if you have 15,000 armor, you only reduce to 12,750. I'm not sure of it's great for the burst in PvP that you might need.

Ozzmar · 05/19/09, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Majingshi

I disagree with armor pen not being useful in PvP. My white crits on a DK went from 400 with daggers Mutilate spec, to 1k damage with maces. A 7/51/13 build. This build uses KS, with KS glyph, Evis glyph, and SS glyph. Great for picking off any character who finds themselves alone.

I do however agree with the pvp build you posted. That looks like a great spec.

You *did* figure the fact that maces have a much higher damage range than daggers into that logic, right? I hate the cliche, but apples and oranges man.

Arkhangel-Nord · 05/19/09, 2:30 PM

How viable would a 7-0-54 spec be for PVP at lvl 70? If I pop Premed, I can do Ambush then a 5point Evis. Pretty useful for finding little clothies running around by themselves.

mofidik · 05/19/09, 4:12 PM

something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft would work. It's basically the idea behind your spec, but it doesn't take all kinds of worthless talents in favour of good ones

.

If you insist on having elussiveness, which is in my opinion not an amazing battleground talent, I would take points for it out of MoD. As a Nelf with shadowstep generally fighting not so talented players, the stealth detection buff is rather lacklustre.

Majingshi · 05/20/09, 8:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ozzmar

You *did* figure the fact that maces have a much higher damage range than daggers into that logic, right? I hate the cliche, but apples and oranges man.

Point proven. However, if you stacked armor pen to where your target would hav 0 armor (not saying it is possible, this is a speculation), would it in fact be viable in PvP then?

Edit: W/O gear factored in, but with buffs, talents, and food that a rogue could have (excluding other classes giving buffs), you can obtain 42% armor penetration.

Ozzmar · 05/20/09, 3:51 PM

Well, my original statement was based on what a previous poster said (just a few above mine).

No one is saying it's a pointless stat or that it doesn't help; it very obviously does. But, I think there are several things to keep in mind:

1) You give up a lot to get it. It's easy to grab 3/3 Serrated Blades in the cookie cutter Prep-ilate spec, but other than that, you're forced into an odd Mace-Hemo spec going way into Combat and losing lots of good deep Sub and top tier Assn talents.

2) Other stats can give more. A high ArP rating means you're going to consistently hit clothies a lot harder. That's great! But, it is going to do a LOT less against mail and plate classes, consistently. You're gearing yourself to be subjected to the armor class of your opponent, whereas Agility and Attack Power will provide the same damage boost regardless of who you're fighting.

But hey, I'm all about being proven wrong if I'm misled. Do the math or show us!

Majingshi · 05/20/09, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ozzmar

Well, my original statement was based on what a previous poster said (just a few above mine).

No one is saying it's a pointless stat or that it doesn't help; it very obviously does. But, I think there are several things to keep in mind:

1) You give up a lot to get it. It's easy to grab 3/3 Serrated Blades in the cookie cutter Prep-ilate spec, but other than that, you're forced into an odd Mace-Hemo spec going way into Combat and losing lots of good deep Sub and top tier Assn talents.

2) Other stats can give more. A high ArP rating means you're going to consistently hit clothies a lot harder. That's great! But, it is going to do a LOT less against mail and plate classes, consistently. You're gearing yourself to be subjected to the armor class of your opponent, whereas Agility and Attack Power will provide the same damage boost regardless of who you're fighting.

But hey, I'm all about being proven wrong if I'm mislead. Do the math or show us!

The main reason I started thinking about armor pen, is because I heard that a target can no longer have below 0 (negative) armor. I was thinking, no armor or negative armor gives you a true damage value of your weapon. If that were the case, I thought you could hit for like 1-2k+ per hit. But if it doesn't really work that way, then no it isn't as important.

vellon · 05/21/09, 3:52 PM

My druid healer and I have been chugging along to the low 1600s, continually gaining ground every night. Last night we ran into rDruid/DK & prot pally in holy gear/DK 8 / 10 matches. First I tried burning the healer and was chains of ice spammed with some death grip. Then I tried popping the healers trinket, sitting on the DK until there was a kill window and CC'ing, but even with blind + cyclone spam on his healer the DK can just stay alive forever.

Any advice for beating DK/*healer ?

Offelia, Rogue · 05/21/09, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Majingshi

The main reason I started thinking about armor pen, is because I heard that a target can no longer have below 0 (negative) armor. I was thinking, no armor or negative armor gives you a true damage value of your weapon. If that were the case, I thought you could hit for like 1-2k+ per hit. But if it doesn't really work that way, then no it isn't as important.

I'm still very interested in the subject and love that a good discussion has gotten going on it.

The build I finally settled into is The World of Warcraft Armory – there are a couple of points I’ll swap around once I get motivated about it, but I’m having a lot of fun with it in the BGs. FoK (Glyphed) is a fantastic support skill for defending carriers and flags. I’m using a Mace/Dagger combo and am quite satisfied with the results.

I gave the build that Ozzmar had posted for a few days, but couldn’t quite catch the hang of it. That being said, I agree with Ozzmar and would really love to see some of the math backing the ArP opinions.

I found alot of the foundational ArP info off a post in the PvE post on Gear - the relevant link is here World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Armor Penetratation - Lack of a Cap? and the EJ page is at WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion - all of that indicates that the magic number is 1230. That 0(s) Mail and below. But what was missing was the impact of higher ArP on 20k Plate.

On a related-ish note of the Combat build, I had read that Killing Spree does not benefit much from Blade Fury on the PvE boards, but again could not find much math backing that (though there were some great cases being made for other things being better that I accept). Is there post that anyone knows of that I could read/re-read to get the back story on that decision?

Thanks everyone for the input

Grunge · 05/21/09, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by vellon

My druid healer and I have been chugging along to the low 1600s, continually gaining ground every night. Last night we ran into rDruid/DK & prot pally in holy gear/DK 8 / 10 matches. First I tried burning the healer and was chains of ice spammed with some death grip. Then I tried popping the healers trinket, sitting on the DK until there was a kill window and CC'ing, but even with blind + cyclone spam on his healer the DK can just stay alive forever.

Any advice for beating DK/*healer ?

Vs DK/Druid you can kill either, with a quick swap, although usually DK dies due to Fear, Blind or both, but as rogue-druid you can cc the healer for 16-20.5 seconds, which should be enough to kill the DK.
Remember your druid can root the dk if needed. You can also "juke" a grip before you do the actual swap by running away from the DK.
Majority of them blow their cd's like there's no tommorow.

Although this won't happen until well into the fight (ie after you've forced trinket already on druid), so you should put plenty of pressure on the dk to force him to pop cooldowns before you can get the CC chain on the druid,
and probably not have them for when you're really trying to kill him.

Tectonic · 05/23/09, 9:11 AM

I'm having a lot of problems this week with players seeing me from far away in the arena. I've asked around on my server and it seems like players (of any class or race) are able to see us for an extended time after a sap. Normally when a player sees a stealthed rogue, he has but a short moment to target and attack us. Right now it looks like that time frame has doubled or tripled. Either a bunch of us are going crazy or blizzard messed something up with all the hot fixes and restarts this week. I've also talked to non rogue players and they say that they felt it odd at seeing rogues from so far away.

Does anyone know the actual time/distance that players are supposed to see us once spotted? I would like to test this more as I am having to adjust my gameplay greatly in the arena.

Edit: after a little testing, it looks as though MoD + cape enchant still work as before. Players cannot spot rogue until very close. However, one a player has spotted me, he has a full 3 seconds to attack even if the rogue is running away. This window seems quite large. It does mean getting hit from quite far away after being spotted.

DrRusty · 05/26/09, 9:03 PM

Are there any combat pvp rogues out there? I'm in a pve server but I play battlegrounds a lot to build up honor. I like to mix survivability and damage into my gear so I use both pve and pvp armor. I find combat very comfortable to me while playing pvp since I'm so used to it from pve. A strategy I use sometimes for duels is to open with garrote, followed by a sinister strike for another combo point, then a rupture to vanish. Since I dual stack deadly poisons for duels its pretty easy for my to get 3 or 4 stacks in before I vanish. In 2 seconds the person is hit with 3 DoTs and no one around. I usually wait a couple seconds to see what they do, but usually I follow with a cheap shot from vanish to finish them off. Anyone else do this?

That strategy only really works for duels though. In BGs I use cripple and wound. The rotation for me in BGs is pretty much the same when someone is alone, but I cheap shot, sinister strike, to kidney shot when there's others around. Once the kidney shot wears off I hit them with a disarm.

So are there any combat pvpers? Seems like just about every pvp rogue I've seen is muti or sub. Are these rotations/strategies any good?

Troisloeil · 05/27/09, 2:37 PM

Yeah, Combat Sword PvP.
About the only time I'm feeling a garrote as an opener is during BG melee. You can catch the casters, especially any healers, napping, and drop the hammer before they realize you're there. As of right now, I can burst down just about anything but the Heavies, and my current weapons are unimpressive to say the least. My original rotation was CS-SS-KS-SS-SS-Evis(Rup). Anything they've got left will usually go with a Pyro Rocket, Grenade, or LG.
What I'm finding now, is that while that still does work some, against Pally's and DK's, unless your timing is superior and you've got NO lag, The KS will get trinketed, they will wait for it. What I've begun doing is just before the KS, I drop a dismantle. This serves a couple of purposes. I might fake him into popping his trinket, low order probability, but it happens. Or, when I do drop the KS, he trinkets, but can't hit me to hard. It's a strat call thing though, I might consider opening with a Garrote on a Priest, but I'm not finding that to pay off that well. Also, I might recommend, if you don't do this already, getting at least a second OH, if not a full second set. With the "correction" Weapon Twisting, and the speed of the fights post 3.0, I'm not getting as much usefulness out of Crippling. I've found that unless it's Arena, where control is always important, Deadly is giving me more bang. An opener from behind is an almost assured Daze. Run a complementary poison set for at need use (I'm using Cripple and either Anesthetic or Mind numb). A quick Shiv and back you go to killing. It will reset your swing timer, but so far that's seems manageable.
A full up KSp (SnD, BF, and a Feint or Cloak), is ruinous in BG. You'll get Rat packed alot, and a FoK to poison everyone (Savage Combat), followed by a KSp, can take out 2 out of 3 non plate players.
There is DEFINITELY something not right with the Stealth mechanics right now. I am getting seen entirely to often, at long ranges, and I'M the Human.

Just my observations from my play style. Your mileage may vary...

Majingshi · 05/27/09, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Offelia, Rogue

I'm still very interested in the subject and love that a good discussion has gotten going on it.

The build I finally settled into is The World of Warcraft Armory – there are a couple of points I’ll swap around once I get motivated about it, but I’m having a lot of fun with it in the BGs. FoK (Glyphed) is a fantastic support skill for defending carriers and flags. I’m using a Mace/Dagger combo and am quite satisfied with the results.

I gave the build that Ozzmar had posted for a few days, but couldn’t quite catch the hang of it. That being said, I agree with Ozzmar and would really love to see some of the math backing the ArP opinions.

I found alot of the foundational ArP info off a post in the PvE post on Gear - the relevant link is here World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Armor Penetratation - Lack of a Cap? and the EJ page is at WotLK Rogue Gear Discussion - all of that indicates that the magic number is 1230. That 0(s) Mail and below. But what was missing was the impact of higher ArP on 20k Plate.

On a related-ish note of the Combat build, I had read that Killing Spree does not benefit much from Blade Fury on the PvE boards, but again could not find much math backing that (though there were some great cases being made for other things being better that I accept). Is there post that anyone knows of that I could read/re-read to get the back story on that decision?

Thanks everyone for the input

Armor penetration - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

This is the best information I can come up with for armor pen. Only problem is that it shows a level 83 boss. This does agree with the magic number statement 1230. Now my theory was that if you reduce an enemies armor to 0, you would get true hit values. This however is not the case due to resilience. Resilience has to be factored in because it reduces the damage you take: Resilience - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft. My original thoughts become faulty. However, it would still seem that armor pen does help in producing more damage. Simply put: if your target has less armor, you are going to hit harder. This doesn't mean it is the most important stat though. I've found from experience that the most Important stat (Defensive wise) is resilience. Survivability increases tremendously. Offensively, I don't know where armor pen would lie in ranking.

DrRusty · 05/27/09, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Troisloeil

Yeah, Combat Sword PvP.
About the only time I'm feeling a garrote as an opener is during BG melee. You can catch the casters, especially any healers, napping, and drop the hammer before they realize you're there. As of right now, I can burst down just about anything but the Heavies, and my current weapons are unimpressive to say the least. My original rotation was CS-SS-KS-SS-SS-Evis(Rup). Anything they've got left will usually go with a Pyro Rocket, Grenade, or LG.
What I'm finding now, is that while that still does work some, against Pally's and DK's, unless your timing is superior and you've got NO lag, The KS will get trinketed, they will wait for it. What I've begun doing is just before the KS, I drop a dismantle. This serves a couple of purposes. I might fake him into popping his trinket, low order probability, but it happens. Or, when I do drop the KS, he trinkets, but can't hit me to hard. It's a strat call thing though, I might consider opening with a Garrote on a Priest, but I'm not finding that to pay off that well. Also, I might recommend, if you don't do this already, getting at least a second OH, if not a full second set. With the "correction" Weapon Twisting, and the speed of the fights post 3.0, I'm not getting as much usefulness out of Crippling. I've found that unless it's Arena, where control is always important, Deadly is giving me more bang. An opener from behind is an almost assured Daze. Run a complementary poison set for at need use (I'm using Cripple and either Anesthetic or Mind numb). A quick Shiv and back you go to killing. It will reset your swing timer, but so far that's seems manageable.
A full up KSp (SnD, BF, and a Feint or Cloak), is ruinous in BG. You'll get Rat packed alot, and a FoK to poison everyone (Savage Combat), followed by a KSp, can take out 2 out of 3 non plate players.
There is DEFINITELY something not right with the Stealth mechanics right now. I am getting seen entirely to often, at long ranges, and I'M the Human.

Just my observations from my play style. Your mileage may vary...

So I'm not the only one who noticed the thing with stealth. I have maxed master of deception and I'm still seen easily SOMETIMES. I was in an arena battle that ended up being 2 v me when it started. I stealthed before the battle even started, and quickly moved to the end of the arena. The orc death knight didn't hesitate at all and brought me straight into him from halfway across the arena where I was ganked on by both of them. Of course this isn't the only situation where stealth failed me pretty badly, but it's one of the ones that made me mad the most. I was trying to get behind one of them to sap, but I got killed pretty quickly since they saw me.

Wintersavage · 05/28/09, 12:55 PM

I'm still on the honor grind and am wondering which piece I should buy next to be most beneficial in Arena for play. I was thinking a ring, and holding off on the bracers since we can easily hit 1700 and the Furious Bracers are relatively close to us right now.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm on a 2s team with a Disc Priest, fwiw.

Lobotomy3yes · 05/29/09, 5:32 PM

I've recently been doing arenas with a mage and I definitely think combat is viable at least til the higher brackets. Our rating is low, but we just have not been playing too much. Currently we have won 29 and lost 20 (the main problem is my friend's aversion to polymorph). The build I am running right now is The World of Warcraft Armory
The main reason I chose combat is because I recently got CG and it is much better than any prepilate weapon I had. The key with combat is the use of your CDs to burst people down quickly. I am not sure how well it would work with a healer comp, but it works well with double DPS. Typically I open with a CS, max my points, Evisc, then Killing Spree. Combined with my mage's elemental and mirror image, this usually kills our target. After that I vanish, CS, pop Adren. Rush and my AP trinket and quickly DPS the other target down. The spec is great for short battles without heals, because it provides a lot of burst, as well as survivability. Imp. Sprint is like another trinket, and LR is very nice for the extra dodge. I chose parry rating over hit because I am hitcapped without it. If you do not have the PVP hitcap, you should put 5 talents into this rather than Imp SS and Deflection. I specced down to Vigor for longer bursts, and because the 4p bonus goes well with it.

As for other specs, I would not recommend shadow dance. The best subt. build I have seen is Shadowstep/Cold Blood, though I am not sure how well it actually functions. I have found that I typically destroy mutilate rogues. They may use Prep for that extra vanish, but my FoK has a longer range and I can usually pull them out of stealth quickly. If I am facing another rogue, I will CS, 5 cp, Kidney Shot, +cp, evisc, dismantle, Killing Spree. This usually burns them down.

Harlequin719 · 05/29/09, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Offelia, Rogue

I'm still very interested in the subject and love that a good discussion has gotten going on it.

The build I finally settled into is The World of Warcraft Armory – there are a couple of points I’ll swap around once I get motivated about it, but I’m having a lot of fun with it in the BGs. FoK (Glyphed) is a fantastic support skill for defending carriers and flags. I’m using a Mace/Dagger combo and am quite satisfied with the results.

I know that sustained DPS is not the order of the day in PvP, but I was wondering on how you were finding energy regeneration with your build. Assuming I have the correct build here, there are no points in Improved Sinister Strike, 1 in Vitality and 3 in Combat Potency.

Again, I know that PvP encounters tend to be short and brutal, but I'm just curious if you were feeling energy starved without those talents since I am tinkering with a Combat PvP build of my own.

Aironkb · 06/01/09, 2:33 AM

Hey guys. My pvp spec used to be 41/5/25, but i recently got a better weapon.(Fist weapon - OH) i was thinking about switching over to combat in the mean while i get better weapon and gear. I dont really know how to use combat. Any suggestions? im using a Dagger for my MH (Murder) and a fist weapong for my OH(don't remember name).

advanced · 06/01/09, 11:05 AM

After this weekend i've noticed my 2v2 team going fastly downhill, every pair-up we get either has a druid or a Deathknight involved anything else is "doable", wondering if anyone has any advice on it.

While in arena if a resto druid is present my burst is more than capable enough of bringing him down to 20% after that when i'm pooling energy it just seems like wasted efforts, the improved thorns reflects 72 damage (increased with spellpower) and my priest can't get him OOM with the current state of innervate.

Deathknight problems aren't the worst but its more frustration than anything else i can't seem to get close to his healer with the snares, seems near on impossible.