I've started playing with my buddy again after his run last season to 2400 as Ret/Rogue. Playing Mage/Rogue for 2s now that 2s don't grant anything, and he's been talking about playing Sub.
I think I touched this before in a previous post to reiterate, Subtlety just doesn't have the sustained damage, to force the initial cooldowns on a target, which is incredibly important in double DPS, especially with the popularity of Prot-Paladins in 2's.
The ability to blow all your cooldowns to force bubble and then reset the fight (and your cooldowns) for round 2 is imperative.
However if you're dead set on not playing MutiPrep, then I can recommend FoK-Combat, in either it's classic 5/54/12 variant or with Setup in 2/51/18, which provides considerable sustained DPS as well as a decentburst via KSpree.
I find that 33/38/0 is more of a 3's or 5's FoK spec since you can't give up Deadly Brew in those Brackets (unless playing with a class providing a alternative reliable snare effect.)
If you don't have the points for a 2.6 mainhand, you can still try the spec out by investing in the 2.6 offhand and using
Crippling in MH instead of OH, and swapping a slow PvE weapon (any of the the slow main-hand fists work fine) to MH for KSpree.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Like many warlocks, I have problems with rogues in arena (2s and 3s). I was wondering if there was any advice to be had from rogues specifically pertaining to the opening 15 seconds of combat. What is it that successful warlocks do against you? My pvp gear is pretty good, although it's a mix of pve and pvp gear since I've never been able to get enough rating for a level 80 wand/weapon/offhand.
Do they have the voidwalker out? Succubus?
Are they typically destro or affliction?
Do they charge your partner trying to get into combat so they can't be sapped or do they hide near the entrance area (~36 yards away from their teleport portal)?
To the above,
I personally have the most trouble from warlocks with succubus, attack my partner right out and are destruction. Due to destruction relying on DoTs far less than affliction for obvious reasons, cloak of shadows becomes less effective at ruining you. Succubus and demonic circle combos can be very annoying and can also be used to stun the rogue instead of using your PvP trinket. Hope that helps.
I just started doing arena again with a frost mage in 2's and was curious about a couple of things pertaining to this composition. I'm Mutiprep. WoW Armory
1. Instead of taking FF I'm using Cat's Swiftness for the passive movement speed increase. Can anyone speculate on how valuable the snare reduction is with this setup?
2. I'm using MH Berserking and OH Titanium Weapon Chain so I can maintain WP/Crip via Shiv more easily should I get disarmed. Is this standard at this point or should I use Berserking on my OH for the added burst?
3. I've read mixed opinions on stacking resilience with a double deeps 2's composition and am not sure what to do. I have access to decent PVE gear and currently have ~200 resil due to a few deadly off pieces. Should I drop the supplemental resilience in general? At higher ratings? At lower ratings? I just joined the team tonight but I believe he is around 1600.
Any information is greatly appreciated.
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
I just started doing arena again with a frost mage in 2's and was curious about a couple of things pertaining to this composition. I'm Mutiprep. WoW Armory
1. Instead of taking FF I'm using Cat's Swiftness for the passive movement speed increase. Can anyone speculate on how valuable the snare reduction is with this setup?
2. I'm using MH Berserking and OH Titanium Weapon Chain so I can maintain WP/Crip via Shiv more easily should I get disarmed. Is this standard at this point or should I use Berserking on my OH for the added burst?
3. I've read mixed opinions on stacking resilience with a double deeps 2's composition and am not sure what to do. I have access to decent PVE gear and currently have ~200 resil due to a few deadly off pieces. Should I drop the supplemental resilience in general? At higher ratings? At lower ratings? I just joined the team tonight but I believe he is around 1600.
Any information is greatly appreciated.
First off i think you need to drop your Eviscerate glyph for either Dismantle or Cloak of Shadows, 10% eviscerate crit is of no importance whatsoever considering the survivability bonuses you would recieve from the above two glyphs.
The slower the mainhand the bigger the opener, so reallistically you need the 1.8 in mainhand otherwise you won't burst as much which essentially is what Mage/Rogue is all about, in the 2v2 bracket at this moment in time its stacked full with warriors/deathknights which i personally think resilience is very much needed, Glyphing Cloak of Shadows Vs.these combos will come in extremely handy.
The main point of Mage/Rogue is selecting the target and bringing it down as fast as possible within the CC time of your second target
Fleet Footed - a must have
Improved Kidney Shot is debatable since the Shatter time of a mage/rogue team is usually around 4-6 seconds in which case its probably not.
Quick Recovery - again debatable since all you need now are the Wintergrasp legs and you can pretty much get your 5% hit from the legs/neck/cloak, 20% healing is not needed
Deadened Nerves - i'd go 2/3 minimum in this playing as double dps, you need to at least survive some hits if an error is made to reset.
Serrated blades needed? I've heard alot how Initiative can be more benificial for the extra burst since after the opener and a cold blood Mutilate then Eviscerate aswell as having the mage nuking is most probably the biggest burst available
A lot of that makes sense. As far as the 1.5 in my MH, it has a slightly higher topend but a decently lower lowend so after considering it I will switch it back. It was an enchanting issue when I decided this as well but I'm gonna switch it back and just throw zerking on whatever OH I get next. Glyph of Prep will definitely be replacing my Eviscerate glyph for now, I may change it to CoS or ToTT as I see what comps I'm dealing with in my BG. I'm going to do some tweaking with my spec to see what I can come up with but what you suggested does make a bit more sense as far as QR since my targets will be stunned or I'll most likely be behind them provided they have decent latency.
On a side note I need to look at my combat log and test the CB first Mut vs. CB the 5cp Eviscerate. I can't remember if Mut is still considered 2 hits and whether or not CB will make them both crits if it is still two separate hits. Don't bother posting on this for it's a simple quick test/forum search.
I appreciate the information and will probably repost with a few more questions by the end of the week once I get my feet a bit more wet.
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
A lot of that makes sense. As far as the 1.5 in my MH, it has a slightly higher topend but a decently lower lowend so after considering it I will switch it back. It was an enchanting issue when I decided this as well but I'm gonna switch it back and just throw zerking on whatever OH I get next. Glyph of Prep will definitely be replacing my Eviscerate glyph for now, I may change it to CoS or ToTT as I see what comps I'm dealing with in my BG. I'm going to do some tweaking with my spec to see what I can come up with but what you suggested does make a bit more sense as far as QR since my targets will be stunned or I'll most likely be behind them provided they have decent latency.
On a side note I need to look at my combat log and test the CB first Mut vs. CB the 5cp Eviscerate. I can't remember if Mut is still considered 2 hits and whether or not CB will make them both crits if it is still two separate hits. Don't bother posting on this for it's a simple quick test/forum search.
I appreciate the information and will probably repost with a few more questions by the end of the week once I get my feet a bit more wet.
In my opinion, it would suit you best to get a 2nd Dagger have berserking on MH/OH and have a weapon chain on the swap over dagger, that way you get maximised damage vs something that wont disarm you, also with regards to the CB Mutilate / 5 point Eviscerate, i agree partially but if for instance, you're up against a mage Garrote is your opener after your first Mutilate the mage will not let you eviscerate or will do his best not to, his shield needs to be removed before you let off the first mutilate which is why Priest/Rogue works better in some situations but its still doable if you save your cold blood until after the finisher, its more than likely a mage will block when he hits a low amount of hp so just reset get out of nova range and restealth.
So I got a Fang of Oblivion tonight and i've had a Daschal's Bite for a bit that I was using for PvP. Not with the Fang I might end up raiding as Mutilate and I really don't want to have to change enchants between Berserking and Titanium Weapon Chain. I use Combatant's Bootblade as my OH, but would it be better to use 2 1.8 speed daggers for PvP?
So I got a Fang of Oblivion tonight and i've had a Daschal's Bite for a bit that I was using for PvP. Not with the Fang I might end up raiding as Mutilate and I really don't want to have to change enchants between Berserking and Titanium Weapon Chain. I use Combatant's Bootblade as my OH, but would it be better to use 2 1.8 speed daggers for PvP?
x2 1.8 speed daggers is nice but providing you spec into focused attacks it'd mean less procs on the 2 extra energy, initially 1.8 speed daggers are for the high opener in PVP, if you have the two available and one is used for PVE with berserking put a chain on what you don't use, mutilate is an attack with both weapons so the proc is near on the same.
I've just started getting back into pvp'ing and going to be doing some 2v2 either with a Enhance Shaman or Reti pally so at the moment i've been playing around with World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents. The Weapons wise i've got golem shard , Webbed death and golden saronite dragon all with berserking enchant. Currently Using Hemo, Prep and Evis Glyph
I like using shadow step to get the jump at the start of the fight but not sure if its really a great setup for 2v2 with shaman or pally.I got the spec from Shadow panther just looking for advice on possibly a better spec for 2v2 as i haven't done any pvp/arena since tbc. The reason for shaman or reti is im pvp'ing with a friend and well its easier to communicate with someone i know personally than a random. I was looking at the muti prep build would this be better suited?
Last edited by squalllion1uk : 09/03/09 at 1:52 PM.
I've just started getting back into pvp'ing and going to be doing some 2v2 either with a Enhance Shaman or Reti pally so at the moment i've been playing around with World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents. The Weapons wise i've got golem shard , Webbed death and golden saronite dragon all with berserking enchant. Currently Using Hemo, Prep and Evis Glyph
I like using shadow step to get the jump at the start of the fight but not sure if its really a great setup for 2v2 with shaman or pally.I got the spec from Shadow panther just looking for advice on possibly a better spec for 2v2 as i haven't done any pvp/arena since tbc. The reason for shaman or reti is im pvp'ing with a friend and well its easier to communicate with someone i know personally than a random. I was looking at the muti prep build would this be better suited?
This is a pretty typical mut/prep build, it's the cookie cutter for just about any comp/bracket. It's a better balance of offensive damage and defensive cooldowns. I'd suggest giving it a shot, it's the most popular for a reason.
There are some filler points you can move around (Imp KS, FA, DN, Serrated, Initiative, etc), and you have a couple of choices for your third glyph (Evis/Sprint/Prep/CoS), but that's the basic framework.
Mut/Prep with a Ret Pally can be a pretty successful comp, I haven't seen too many rogue/enh though.
If you really want ShS I'd at least fill out the sub tree down to SD. The spec has low damage outside of shadow dance, but that gives good burst...some have made it work in 2s.
If you are playing with a mobility-endowing partner such as paladin (freedom) or shaman (freedom totem) I would definitely go Mutilate over deep Subtlety. Regardless of the fact that Mut / Prep is widely acknowledged as just better, the primary gain of deep subtlety over mut on paper is mobility - which isn't really necessary when your partner can remove roots / snares on you.
I'm playing Enh/Rogue at 2100 MMR currently for shits and giggles; last season we played Resto to 2400, so it's a downgrade for us at least, but lots faster, which is pretty much all we're looking for in the initial rating up grind.
Hello. I have now registered on this site but have used it many times to help me understand my characters along my experiences. I have just gotten back into pvping with my rogue after many years of not doing so. Anyways I am having trouble with macros.
I came across a macro on this website the other day which for the life of me I can no longer find. It was a macro for using cheapshot while in stealth and kidney if not stealthed. I am certain it isn't hard but I am a noob when it comes to macros and am still reading up on them. =P
I intend and would assume the same macro can be applied to sap/blind, and garrote/rapture and amb/evis so I should be good in that department.
Also are mouse over macros viable for rogues? I have tried using my Blind one but it seems like to much of a pain when handling multiple targets considering I use my mouse to move? I use it for my healing classes all the time but my guildie said to use it for blind too...
Why do you need a macro that does one thing while in stealth and another while out? What action bars are you using? There should be one for stealth and one for non-stealth, that change automatically, even if you're using the standard Blizz UI. To answer your other question, mouseover blind is excellent for rogues, just add "; Blind" without the quotes at the end of your macro and you'll blind your current target if you can't get a mouseover. To ensure you dont mouse over the wrong person when you want to blind your target, all you have to do is hold right click so you go into mouselook mode, then press whatever button you're setting the macro to.
I've got a question of my own, too, for all the arena vets out there.
I've just dusted off my rogue for the first time in months, and will be doing 2's with a frost mage. I'm aware that mutiprep is the superior pvp spec, but I just don't have any good daggers. I'm using the 143 DPS tourney dagger and the 143 50 Emblem of Heroism reward. But I have the Aledar's battlestar(163.3DPS mace) from H ToCh.
My question is, would I be better off using the PVP HAT spec with my mace until I get the rating to use Furious Daggers, or is Mutiprep so much better that it would still outperform HAT even with inferior weapons?
I came across a macro on this website the other day which for the life of me I can no longer find. It was a macro for using cheapshot while in stealth and kidney if not stealthed. I am certain it isn't hard but I am a noob when it comes to macros and am still reading up on them. =P
You can use the modifier [stealth] or [nostealth] for these types of macros. I used to do that without a stance swapping bar because I found it responded faster than the bar would roll over (quicker Vanish-CS). So, to fully answer your question: /cast [stealth] Cheap Shot; Kidney Shot
What I actually liked better than what you're doing was: /cast [nostealth] Stealth; Cheap Shot
This was better for doing the old "Gouge->restealth->Cheap Shot" by just spamming the button.
In the future, check out WoWwiki for macros. It has a ton of examples, including class specific ones.
I've got a question of my own, too, for all the arena vets out there.
I've just dusted off my rogue for the first time in months, and will be doing 2's with a frost mage. I'm aware that mutiprep is the superior pvp spec, but I just don't have any good daggers. I'm using the 143 DPS tourney dagger and the 143 50 Emblem of Heroism reward. But I have the Aledar's battlestar(163.3DPS mace) from H ToCh.
My question is, would I be better off using the PVP HAT spec with my mace until I get the rating to use Furious Daggers, or is Mutiprep so much better that it would still outperform HAT even with inferior weapons?
Mage/Rogue is all about setting up burst opportunities to score kills, and the mage will do the heavy lifting during burst chances. You need to help with control to set it up, Mut/Prep will give you just about the same control, and then on top of it better personal burst than HaT to assist on kills. Even with weaker weps I'd try out Mut/Prep.
I left my raiding days behind me in Classic and BC, this character is almost strictly PvP.
My weapons are about the best thing I can get short of raiding. Now with the new season, res changes and a new character I need better.
I could try and farm out the mace in heroic ToC, and I have a Kinetic Ripper randomly, if I did that, would it be better to run 27/0/44 (or hemo/wepswap) with higher dps weapons 163mace/163dpsfist (poss weap swap to my current daggers both 143dps)
or
Try a combat spec which is decidedly not a PvP spec (lol).
or
just keep the standard mut spec with 143 weaps and just wait it out for new daggers in 3.2.2 / Farm 1800 arena rating and save up a crap ton of points.
My gear is currently full hateful with deadly accessories, I'm looking to go to furious/relentless but if I have to save arena points for new weaps my other gear will suffer.
Note*
I play with RL friends and family who don't eat/drink/sleep wow but are decent players, we will hit 1800 eventually but it might be a while.
Edit #2 I run 2s with my wife who is a priest, 3s with priest and hunter, and 5s with DPriest/RDruid/Hunter/Mage/ME (roag!)
EDIT** Wow, i need to refresh before posting lol.
I'm not entirely sure, wether this has been discussed before, but recently I have noticed one thing: Somehow every pvp rogue (including myself and several Gladiator rogues out of my guild) uses the standard RED as PvP metagem. Now, as mutilate we don't need runspeed (which in bc usully came over the meta), but is 21 agi and 3% critdmg really that good with resilience?
Personally I almost believe an ap+x gem to better (for example 42ap and stun duration reduced or similar).
would it be better to run 27/0/44 (or hemo/wepswap) with higher dps weapons 163mace/163dpsfist (poss weap swap to my current daggers both 143dps)
or
Try a combat spec which is decidedly not a PvP spec (lol).
or
just keep the standard mut spec with 143 weaps and just wait it out for new daggers in 3.2.2 / Farm 1800 arena rating and save up a crap ton of points.
My gear is currently full hateful with deadly accessories, I'm looking to go to furious/relentless but if I have to save arena points for new weaps my other gear will suffer.
What comp are you running?
Combat (a PvP varient of course) can be pretty nice in 2s with a healer, good sustained damage and if you get a player low a well timed KSp can be deadly. The more people in the arena though, the more difficult it is to focus that damage on a single target.
If you're running double dps or 3s, Mut/Prep is a strong choice, even with your gear (which isn't that horrible).
Haven't played ShD, but you're still relying on a dagger for your knockout blow, so you might as well take the more well rounded spec.
As Sealfon had said combat is favorable in situation's that only have a few player's involved.
I wouldnt knock it till you try it as combat has a good amount of burst damage for pvp. If You would like a talent build to follow i would try this out. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
As for Mut/Prep it fits almost any situation in PvP execpt for groups of 7 or more in BG,s unless of course you have back-up with you. When it come's to the build for Mut/Prep this is what i use. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Sub builds vary greatly from person to person due to the fact you can throw points just about anywhere and get results. Subtlety is more for burst damage and survivability rather then sustained damage like Mut/Prep.
I do have a talent build for you to check out for Subtlety as well. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
With the buff to Master Poisoner I can see why alot of the top PVP rogues are going 44/2/25 but I dont understand why they are putting 3 points into Improved Eviscerate.
I thought this spec would use envenom over eviscerate.
08/08/09, 12:32 AM
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