44/4/23 gives you best of both worlds.

WP/WP & Eviscerate vs teams without hard cleanse (totem/abolish) or where you need to swap a lot.

WP/DP & Envenom vs Plate & teams with hard cleanse.

Since DP is a fickle thing, and it doesn't want to stick on a target when you're chain cc'd to peel you off the target.

There's exceptions to this of course, for example for some WizzardCleave you might want to go WP/DP, even though your time on target might not be 90%+

Quick question about weapon selection since I don't think the Rogue spreadsheets are really appropriate for modeling PvP gear decisions.

How important is weapon speed for mut/prep? I currently don't have focused attacks, so would assume that 2x1.8 would be the best option. However I have only recently come back to Arenas so I'm using PvE weapons until I hit 1800.

My options are [Sinister Revenge], [Golem-Shard Sticker], and the newly acquired [Steel Bladebreaker]

Note: I don't have the heroic version of SB, not certain how to get WoWhead to show the right version.

I'm basically trying to balance the higher damage output of SR for my Mutilates versus the increased proc chance on my poisons (as well as potentially specing into FA if I'm using 1.5/1.4) and wanted to gather some input from more expeienced minds on the matter.

Thanks

Focused attacks is only useful when you can sit on a target for a high percentage of the time. For this reason it is typically found most useful in a 2v2 Rogue/Healer comp.

In your situation I would use your SR in the main hand (remember PPM!) with the SB in the OH. You can run wound or deadly poison on the off hand as you so desire. Once you hit 1800 snag a new main hand and drop a weapon chain on it. I would put a weapon chain on your SR now if you feel comfortable with it.

I've run 23 in sub before in fives, but I'm not certain it is beneficial for twos and threes due to other the higher quantity of other rogues.

I can only blame this damn lingering head cold for forgetting that poisons are PPM (and have been for some time) and run double wound because I like to keep my options open for CC (specifically Blind) though I'm considering changing that up for 3s since I mostly use Blind to peel off the priest or to stall a healer when focusing a dps.

I'm running berserker on my offhand, but I'm tempted by [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining]. Have any of you tried it out? My guild has been locked into 10mans only for a bit now, so I don't have ready access to alot of the 25man gear/enchants.

Consensus on blood draining is that it wasn't better than berserking. Arena Junkies had a brief discussion on the topic when the enchant surfaced.

The real shine of running deadly poison (with 3/3 master poisoner) is how hard it hits. If you chain several together you can drop a warrior from half health to nothing in a few globals.

I disagree about FA, however with 44/4/23 you don't have that many points to spare (even more so if you're inclined to pick up Deadened Nerves) anyway to pick up full FA, so in my opinion 2/3 Find Weakness is the best option.

As for Blood Draining it's not worth it.

Mmkay. I want a bit of help on general rotation and enchants. I use the muti/prep build of 41/5/15. Because I can't get Sinister Revenge and Anarchy (Which is what I'm shooting at until I can get geared up enough for Ulduar and ToC), I'm using a Titansteel Shanker with an Omen of Ruin offhand. I have a deadly poison on my offhand and instant on my main (Wound on main against pallies, mind numbing on casters, of course).

What can I do to improve my usual rotation, which is just me going and sap -> CS -> Muti -> KS -> Muti -> Muti -> Rupture -> Vanish, repeat this time with Prep infront of Vanish. After that, I usually blind and run around until I can restealth.

And then, what enchantments should I use for self healing? I know about the Battlemaster Enchant, but is the Lifeward from the Dalaran vendor better? Which procs and heals more?

At the moment, I have a weapon chain on the Shaker to improve hit rating, and Lifeward on the OoR, which doesn't seem to proc that much. I can get a more in depth/detail version of my gear if you wish to see it from WoWhead.

Poisons: Wound out damages instant poison with out improved poisons, which is not in the 41/5/25 build. Use wound poison over instant at all times. Mind numbing or deadly poison are usable, but in most situations with 41/5/25 most rogues will simply run two sets of wound poison to ensure high up time on their poisons, but also for a large dps increase. Load up recount, or simply watch a combat log as you beat on a combat dummy with both daggers with wound poison on them. The damage from wound is pretty outstanding. Deadly poison is typically only used with master poisoner builds.

In regard to enchants, healing is typically considered a no no as the offensive gains of standard PvE enchants will win more fights than a small trickling heal. The other enchant should always be a weapon chain to half the duration of disarm effects, and as you said it helps with the typically low hit on PvP gear.

I would try to get out of the habit of thinking of PvP rotations. Rogue is frail class that can also lay down a ton of hurt. The control opener will only last so long, so be ready to adapt to what your opponents throw at you. Rotations will not win a match or duel.

Okay. What enchantment would you suggest? I've been noticing that others in this thread don't particularly use the muti/prep spec; is another better, or is it all just playstyle?

Mutilate Prep is the standard pvp spec, either 41/5/25 or some sort of 44/x/x build with master poisoner.


Berserking is the enchant of choice.

So I run RMP, and I was told by a friend of mine who I know to be a very good player. To use this spec for RMP and just switch poisons when needed obviously. I tried the spec ,and what I found out about it is that the ramp up time on doses is really long. Also the fact of if its a team where I want WP/WP and I'm using WP/DP it takes a decent junk of time to switch the poisons. Which doesn't allow us to rush like we are supposed to.

So what I want to know is should I use say a 1.4 speed dagger with DP on it (so I get charges on faster) and just switch that between my other OH that has WP, when I want WP/WP.

So I've changed to the 44/2/25 spec and I have to say that once I worked out a few kinks it really took off (including literally destroying a DK in 4 GCDs through chaining Envenom/Mut).

I completely understand your concerns about stacking DP. One thing I was experimenting with (and would love feedback on) was that when I was looking at sticking to my target in 2v2 I would do a quick envenom to get the buff to build stacks for the real burn. I also tried out using Shiv to stack DP but it was terribly inefficient and just felt clunky.

Do you more expeienced rogues find you're target swapping constantly in the 2 and 3 bracket? I've reached the point where I'm using mouseover macros to dismantle and blind in order to peel off my healer without breaking my time on target, but I still end up switching up often enough that it's tough to build DP effectively and I feel like I'm missing something.

Thanks again, this has been really helpful!

While there are many options on weapon speeds and poison swaps, I believe most would argue if you want to use deadly poison on your off hand to go with 1.4 speed daggers, and 1.8 speed for wound. If you buy pvp weapons, go ahead and buy both off hands if you want to quickly switch.

In a situation like this it isnt the actually speed that matters. It is a general rule that in PvP a rogue wants to have 2 1.8 or 1.6 daggers. The only reason this si the general rule is because a slower weapon will usually hit harder. In this case you need to look at top end damage. The Steel Bladebreaker is a faster offhand, but it hits harder than the golem shard sticker, and is therefor the better option.

This isn't strictly true.

With a 44/x/x spec 1.4 daggers can be an advantage for increased DP application against plate since you're counting on envenom and poisons to do most of the damage (sucks to try to envenom when your stack has been abolished). Against other comps when ignoring armor matters less, or with a more traditional 41/x/x spec where you're counting on mut/evis for damage, a slower OH with W on it will give you bigger Mut's plus better deadly brew application since you have wound on both weps now (even though one is slower).

So there is a rationale behind selecting weapon speeds. What you'll ultimately want to do is have at least 3 weps. MH, fast OH, slow OH and swap in whatever's appropriate for the comp you're facing.

With the weapons BB is comparing I'd probably run 44/x/x, MH SR (W), OH SB (DP) with GSD as a second OH with W for wep swaps. And weapon upgrades would be my first purchases.

Now that wound application is PPM, fast/fast with FA is pretty out of date afaik.

One thing to consider about using the Master Poisoner spec is that it gives everyone the 3% critical chance on your team. Personally I don't even bother using 3/3 imp eviscerate, a 5 point envenom with 1 dp to a 5 point eviscerate isn't to big of a blow to me. Running with my comp (RLS) I find that controlling everyone on the opposing team while my lock rolls the chaos/conflag shatter is what will usually be important. So the 3% critical chance is more important to him then it is myself.

I'd like to touch on this. I would say this holds true mainly for 2v2, I feel that in 3v3 the CC can be split by the rogues partner and the rogue (mage sheeping, lock fearing, shaman hexing etc). Before I rerolled a rogue, I was playing RMP, and the job of CC and/or lock down wasn't really attatched to one person. For example, if we faced ret/rogue/priest, our rogue would wait for the other rogue to come out, I could kite the ret forever, and when the other rogue opens, it's a sheep onto the ret and shatter combo onto the rogue, with a rupture on him to prevent vanish. This would happen very fast so that I could get the shatter while the rogue was still in cheap shot, in-case he felt like trinketing KS and CoSing. Then we have two options, the priest could fear the other priest, I could sheep/CS, rogue can blind. It all comes down to situation and circumstance. I would say it would be best for the rogue/priest to CC the others in this case, because CoS only lasts 5 seconds and our rogue could be dismantled, he could've popped evasion etc.

Then you could have fights like RLS vs RMP. In this case I would definitely say the mage and priest must shutdown the others so that the rogue can get a kill. You just don't want all the burst and CC floating around from the warlock or shaman, and the rogue has a bit of an easier time resisting it thanks to CoS - 5 seconds free of CC in which to burst the other rogue down perhaps helped by a shatter from the mage.

Yes rogues in some cases do the locking down while their mage/lock destroys the target, but I feel it's important to acknowledge that the task is not given specifically to one partner.

This is significant to a lesser extent to the 44/**/** spec. If you were facing a very high endurance team such as a team with a prot warrior and resto druid in it, or a death knight, then things change a bit. This spec is certainly much better for sticking onto one target. Lets take a scenario - warrior/resto druid/death knight vs RMP.

The death knight is highly resistant to magic attacks and stun locks, and all 3 are well equipped armour wise and ability wise to deal with rogues.

It would take greatly timed CC (again not being subject to a particular player) with some heavy burst to get a kill, and it could be the DK or the Warrior, you generally don't want to get the druid because DKs and warriors really hurt vs RMP.

You could begin the stacking of DP onto the warrior, while DK was sapped. Once you've got 5 stacks, ToTT your mage, he CSes the druid mid-heal for 8 secs of free cast time, possibly followed by a fear. Rogue pops Cold Blood, crits with Envenom followed by a heavy 15% damage boosted shatter from the mage.

Now now before you start saying "warrior has shield wall and disarm and enraged regeneration," its true, he does have these things. This is why I was saying before timing is critical and therefore the job of locking down does not fall to a specific player.

And certainly not if you are running 44/**/** where the situation changes slightly.

You seem to be all over the map with your reasoning, so let me just say this.

Mages do much more damage than rogues, even if rogues will do more damage over the course of the average game. Burst typically happens during one short kidney shot interval. 44/x builds have become the standard both for their ability to burst plate and to allow for more burst for their partners. Even in your example, look at what the rogue is doing -- He stuns the rogue so you can shatter him freely, then ruptures him so that he can't restealth after the kidney. Cheap shot -> Rupture -> Muti (2?) -> Kidney is not much damage at all. All he is doing is setting the mage up for success.

The remainder of your post hits on many things, which I'm unable understand how they apply to your dispute. You are correct in that no one should say "no mage don't use deep freeze on the kill target," but that isn't what I said in my original post. I said that most of lock down during burst phases is done by the rogue. If your mage is locking down kill targets, you're wasting kidney shot which is one of a Rogue's greatest abilities.

What I was trying to get at was that, while indeed the rogue's stunlocks allow more burst from their partners, that is not to say the rogue doesn't have some responsibility to burst themselves when the need arises. I totally agree with your statement that most of the lockdown is done by the rogue. I just felt it was necessary to say that it may sometimes fall to the mage to do the locking down, which I think I miscommunicated a bit.

I recently came back to WoW to pvp. I read up and understood that 44/2/25 was generalized as the best spec. I tried this and it did not work well for me. Most of my blame falls on lack of hit rating and crappy bind on account daggers.

Last night I switched to this spec: The World of Warcraft Armory

Recently I acquired the sword from the headless horsemen: [The Horseman's Baleful Blade]
With this newly acquired weapon I felt it was obvious I should change if only temporarily.

I am looking for suggestions on how to optimize my current subtlety spec. Arenas are my eventual goal but I have to build up gear and this will mean grueling through BGs. I will be changing my gouge glyph to the hemo one today when I get off work. I felt shadow dance was a lack luster talent and opted to climb the assassination tree. Does anyone see a big reason not to do this? Is their some functionality I am missing to shadow dance (keep in mind its new to me).

Big thanks for this site and everyone's advice, it is a wealth of information and has served me well for previous raiding years!

1) Thats a sword
2) At lower gear levels you generally do want to run with the 41/5/25 spec

Most subtelty specs I have seen use daggers to crit huge with Ambush. In that regard I imagine they'd pick up cold blood, meaning they would leave out Shadow Dance (it is fairly lack luster).

Also if you plan to gather gear first through BGs then I'd advise the spec I mentioned. Spam ToC hc for the daggers.

Akraat, yes I apologize for the error I meant sword!

I tried 41/5/25 and it was much more potent at my gear level than 44/x/xx

Could you elaborate on ToC hc for the daggers? Sorry a little behind on abbreviations, I am quick to learn and the gist of rogues hasn't changed a lot.

Thanks in advance!