Surprise Attacks and Aggression are actually Multiplicative (if that's even a word), so it's 106% X 110%, but for the sake of simple math 116% will do.
Actually someone did some testing on this recently and found that they are in fact additive.
Of course, as you noted, the difference is insignificant. It's 116% (additive) versus 116.6% (multiplicative).
On the subject of Resilience hurting SF builds, Enrage and Blood Craze still proc for warriors even when Resilience blocks the extra crit damage. Is the same, or a similar mechanic not in place to keep SF viable?
I know most of this discussion is about at level 70, but I'm just wondering: how viable is hemo at lower levels for pve and/or pvp? I know it used to be extremely powerful in pvp (at 60) because you could stunlock and burst people down, but wouldn't this change make it even more powerful and do even more damage at lower levels?
I'm wondering how lack of gear should affect PvP talent selections.
Coming up on season 2.3, I'm considering between my current 41/20 build and a hemo-mace build. I have to go "all in" on one choice or the other, as I cannot afford a main hand arena item for both.
Does hemo have some kind of AP inflection point for PvP, where it's only valuable above some AP value? Right now I use the 1 Agility = 1 Stamina = 2 AP ratings for my items, should this change if I decide to go hemo? Why do AR/prep Rogues typically take Deadliness over Vitality? I tried running the numbers for Neilyo, for example, and Vitality gives 19.03 Stamina + Agility per talent point, where Deadliness gives 30 AP/talent point
I typically play 2v2 with a druid partner, so Quick Recovery is one reason not to go AR/prep.
On the subject of Resilience hurting SF builds, Enrage and Blood Craze still proc for warriors even when Resilience blocks the extra crit damage. Is the same, or a similar mechanic not in place to keep SF viable?
It doesn't work that way, it only works if getting critted by an attack would benefit the victim. Seal Fate does nothing positive for the victim of an attack, so you don't get an extra combo point for non-crits that normally would have crit.
If you wanted to go 30/0/31 Swords/Fist/Maces but not take Seal Fate, there's still plenty of goodies in Assassination. Fleet Footed is 15% in 2.3, Imp KS is great for bursting people down, and Quick Recovery is still amazing. It all comes down to if you can survive without Imp Sprint.
Um, I think it all comes down to whether you can go without Mace Spec.
Mace Spec is the thing that makes Hemo/Combat Maces truly viable specs vs. Mutilate. Obviously Combat Swords is 'fine', but really, Mace Spec is just incredibly, insanely good.
And whoever it was: Thanks for needlessly pointing out what YOU mean by PvE. Even though you're still, strictly, wrong. Which is all I was saying originally.
I don't see the value in Ghostly Strikes anymore too be honest. Sure, it's not normalized (at least I don't believe it is), but with a 2.6 speed weapon we're talking 25 extra non-crit damage for an extra 5 energy. You get the Dodge so it has some uses, but I just don't see it.
That is a LOT of extra dodge versus a rogue without Ghostly Strikes or when you have a warrior snared and you're bleed kiting him and need to reapply damage/snares. Warriors have global cooldowns too, a dodged hamstring is very important.
Ghostly Strike is going to suffer some loss of popularity I would imagine, if only due to Riposte becoming viable in Arena. And it comes down to how possible it is to make a single spam 'hit my target' macro.
Ghostly Strike is going to suffer some loss of popularity I would imagine, if only due to Riposte becoming viable in Arena. And it comes down to how possible it is to make a single spam 'hit my target' macro.
Forgive me, but are most people really doing this? Am I some sort of antiquated dinosaur having three separate buttons for all three of those skills? I didn't even know this was a valid concern amongst Rogues.
Are rogues really going to dropping 6 talent points to get Riposte?
I feel riposte's value is not CLOSE to being worth 6 talent points.
How many rogues in the high-end arena brackets are actually going to use Riposte?
With weapon chain and the fact that those 6 points could EASILY be put into MUCH MORE useful abilities brings me to the conclusion that very few high-end arena rogues are even going to bother with riposte.
How many of you guys are actually going to spend 6 points to get riposte? I'll be surprised if more then a few (if any) of you say you will. I simply find that it's not worth it. Sure, it sounds great on paper, a free disarm/instant attack/cheap energy cost.... but at the cost of 6 points and as a situational skill, who really cares?
If your opponents have weapon chain, GG you just wasted 6 points.
If your opponents have no melee, GG you just wasted 6 points.
What does everyone else think riposte? Or am I the only one completely against it?
Are rogues really going to dropping 6 talent points to get Riposte?
I did. I like it and I'm not missing... whatever the hell it was I dropped to get it. I can't even remember now. When I go AR/Prep next patch I'm going to keep Riposte. For one thing disarms will be infinitely more effective next patch with the farewell to disarm immunities. For another thing it's extra survivability. The best part as I see it is that it's not limited use like Warrior's Overpower ability. If I parry, I can riposte anyone or anything immediately around me. It does not have to be the thing I parried. I was 2v2ing yesterday against a rogue/priest. I was hitting the priest and the rogue ran past me and stopped to shiv crippling on me. I parried one of his autoattacks and Riposted his priest for 1200 and it cost a mere 10 energy.
Riposte will be immeasurably useful when fighting Warriors next patch. I won't be caught in any Combat spec without it.
edit- For perspective, since my profile links to my Warrior, my Rogue is on a 1900ish 2v2
Weapon chain will reduce the disarm duration by 50% not make them immune. I've been playing around with Riposte with my 69 rogue and the low energy cost is a real selling point.
I can't say I'm 100% sold on the 6 points but its not the like the 5 in deflection are a complete waste. I'm certainly going for it to start.
If you're going AR/prep, you're not exactly missing out on a lot by getting Riposte. Imp Kick is solid filler, Imp SnD is ok but not necessary, Aggression is near useless, Endurance is situational considering you already have prep, Blade Twisting doesn't work with Hemo (only shiv). Only thing I'd miss really is being able to grab WEx to counteract melee dodges.
Disarming opponents at key times is going to be VERY important in s3, I forsee many 4dps teams having their rogues neutered early and often to prevent gibbing before and after BOP.
Blind is now a physical (no longer a poison) attack. Reagent requirement removed. Now shares the same diminish category as Cyclone and is now diminished in PvE as well as PvP.
Anyone else notice this is a nerf in hidden context? The fact that blind did not share any DR pre 2.3 was a thick reason why rogues were viable in the lower arena brackets. Unless I'm mistaken the DR only triggers when used with cyclone, this would make locking down people even harder on rogues.
Also, lots of issues of the class coming from mobility and damage scaling still hasn't been noticed by Blizzard. Sure, hemo was buffed so non BT rogues had a chance to get an old school feel of hemo pre TBC, but no dagger love?
Dirty Deeds specials cause 20% extra damage against targets that are below 35% health
This was posted by Drysc, but in the PTR notes it has reverted all damage increased down to special attacks only.
To be honest I am quite dissapointed on how the dev team is leading rogues.
It just seems devs want to make Shadowstep our "mobility" buff, problem is they've created the arms/fury scenario where grabbing AR/MS is more powerful than investing in the 41 point talents.
That is a LOT of extra dodge versus a rogue without Ghostly Strikes or when you have a warrior snared and you're bleed kiting him and need to reapply damage/snares. Warriors have global cooldowns too, a dodged hamstring is very important.
I'll have to think about it, I am so often stunned while fighting Warriors the Dodge is useless. It could be play style, but in 3v3 I open on a healer and if I get immediately Intercepted by the Warrior I get three shotted while stunned and die and we lose. If the Warrior doesn't realize I'm there I stay on the Healer and we win. I'm not sure GS will ever be a difference maker in that fight.
And Tower, yes also Mace Spec is nice, but after losing Imp Sprint when I tried a respec, I realized how invalueable it is for my playstyle, even doubly so now that I have Prep.
It just seems devs want to make Shadowstep our "mobility" buff, problem is they've created the arms/fury scenario where grabbing AR/MS is more powerful than investing in the 41 point talents.
Yeah and it's a shame because the deeper you go into Subtlety the more fun the talent points become.
I'm really surprised ghostly strike seems to be not so well liked. It really seems like finding a keybind for it is the driving factor here, as what else are you putting that 1 talent point into? Do people really think 1 more point in camo is better than ghostly strike? 7 seconds of 15% avoidance is nothing to sneeze at. I realize that stuns frequently shut off your avoidance percentages altogether, but that hardly makes it automatically worthless. A dodged swing can't proc a mace stun, and a dodged MS gives a 2 second window for an MS-free heal to land. Now throw in the fact that disarm immunity is going out the window next patch, and incorporate riposte into this. The 3 second disarm from riposte can also further extend these windows where MS is not on you. Reducing incoming mace stuns and MS uptime drastically improves a rogue's ability to toe to toe warriors.
I'm going to be switching my rogue alt from mutilate to maces this season after being finally fed up with positional damage, poison requirements, and horrible toe to toeing ability. I'm really looking forward to both riposte and ghostly strike, I'll take all the avoidance I can get. From the rogue's point of view I can see why raw avoidance seems lame on paper due to intercept/mace stun, but on the other side of the coin, once you have multiple mortal strikes get avoided and see the debuff fall off several times and see a big heal land, the value of avoidance becomes very visible.
Last edited by diotox : 11/13/07 at 12:31 AM.
Reason: clarity
UA is a druid+rogue setup, SL is a druid+warrior setup.
As a rogue, there's not much in the way of CC. The strength of UA is DOTing multiple targets that cannot be dispelled. Have your druid and lock work together to UA+root targets.
Your warlocks needs to be a superstar with his pet, eating polymorph off of you etc.
I was browsing through this thread and noticed this statement. SL/SL is the best spec for Rogue/Druid/Lock.
Any rogues out there in a 2v2 with a resto druid? Your thoughts on the combo? Any previous good discussions on the topic here?
I currently started 2'S with a druid guildie for fun last week. My thoughts on the combo is that we work pretty well against most teams. CC's, crippling poison and survivability are what make this team very good.
However, one team that beats us most of the time is Warrior/Paladin. We have beaten Warrior/Paladin, but it's a tough fight. You would kill the warrior while CC'ing the paladin as best as you can. It's a tough fight whether you choose to kill the paladin or the warrior.
Blessing of freedom really owns rogue/druid because the snare effect from crippling is usually the game breaker.
*I recommend putting crippling in your OH to shiv if you aren't already doing this*
We have beaten Warrior/Druid teams before, just CC the war and rock their druid as fast as you can (blow all your cd's if you can kill him because once the druid is down, it's GG).
Most caster teams will be easy. Double DPS teams are easy once you outlive the initial bursts. You will probably will win most of the matches against double DPS if you survive the first 30 seconds or so.
11/11/07, 5:05 AM
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