Thanks Vonlego, that is helpfull. So would I be better off using wound/wound, or having him use Curse of (weekness..?) to decrese there armor? And do you perfer envenom or evisc? As far as I understand envenom ignores(?) your targets armor. To use it though I would need DP on one of my daggers. I have not heard of anyone using DP in arena.
On your kill target the lock should use Curse of Elements for optimal burst, I've gotten to 2250 rating with this comp (this was also after the blind/fear nerf) I use evenom also because I use the evenom mut/prep spec, but most rogues spec to use evenom and eviscerate where they use eviscerate on cloth/leather and evenom on mail/plate. Theres quite a few rogues now that are using a fast offhand in arena with DP on it with patch 3.2.2, I use two slow daggers because I got mine before the evenom buff, but its still worth it using DP.
I believe pray on the weak is taken over combat potency in a pvp build due to low time on target. With my brief experimentation with pvp combat I found myself having a hard time unloading energy fast enough for a burst phase to land a kill.
So it looks more and more likely that 3.3 will drop next Tuesday. Now admitedly there is still a ton of time for them to decide that the DP buff should only apply to IP, but assuming they don't (I expect them to wait to do so about a week or two after the patch, when the whining gets too loud) I"m planning out my build post-3.3.
1) Is there any reason not to be 44/x/2x after this patch? Other than that 41/5/25 is pretty simple to play well. The initial burst will be much lower, but the ramp up should be so fast as to more than make up for it, and it should chew up plate teams.
2) Related to the above, is there any reason at all to not run 1.8WP/1.4DP after this buff? Honestly while the burst on double 1.8WP will be more, I can't help but think that this will still be more than strong enough to make up for it.
3) Has there been a comparison of the value of Find Weakness versus Dual Wield Spec? I ask because, as I understand it, FW applies to finishers, which get chained together with Envenom spec.
My gut feeling is to go with this spec. I just like Deaden Nerves too much to pass on it.
However, just for fun, I was thinking about this spec for sustained pressure. When I was envenom spec I could often chaing together 4pt envenoms and having that likely refresh my SnD seems interesting.
The best spec far and away currently is 44/4/23, sustained dps is more or less the same, as is burst. However the ability to pump 7k+ crit into plate in combination with a mage or someone is too important to skip. Additionally DP is a very good protection to keep wound/crippling from being cleansed.
You still want two offhand daggers a 1.4 with DP and a 1.8 with WP. The 1.8 is for rogues (cloak the dp) and mages who you probably won't be able to stack dp on.
In pvp we probably still won't be speccing imp. poisons. imp. evi. is a very good talent when you absolutely need that burst immediatly.
Additionally CttC makes no sense, if you don't put 5 points, in which case you might as well go HfB PVP.
Actually, most of the top PVP rogues have been speccing 5 points into Improved Poisons since the 3.3 patch. It increases the proc chance of Deadly Poison from 30% to 50% now which is pretty significant, especially since procs beyond a 5 stack are no longer "wasted".
Some notable variations include: Lethality 3/5 vs Improved Eviscerate 3/3
Lethality is a lackluster talent at best, only affecting Mutilate, which no longer accounts for a large amount of our burst.
If you find yourself rolling with WP/WP and Eviscerate often, then it's a easy choice.
Deadened Nerves vs Find Weakness
Defense vs Offense. Hard to quantify, but if you think the extra 4% damage reduction will save the day, your choice is simple. Me, I go for the damage.
Initiative vs Serrated Blades
Some rogues prefer Initiative for the guaranteed 5cp Finishers after the initial CS->Mutilate.
Depending on your critrate on mutilate, you might consider Initiative, but in the longer games, Serrated Blades wins out.
Dual Wield Specialization vs Heightened Senses
Again, a Defense vs Offense question.
If you find yourself getting sapped way too often, HS might be the key to tide you over to the winning side.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Actually, most of the top PVP rogues have been speccing 5 points into Improved Poisons since the 3.3 patch. It increases the proc chance of Deadly Poison from 30% to 50% now which is pretty significant, especially since procs beyond a 5 stack are no longer "wasted".
I'm just looking to add back a PVP spec today for the first time since 3.3 and spent some time reviewing the specs of all the top rated 2v2 rogues over at arenajunkies. None are speccing into Imp Poisons ... but that is only the 2v2 teams which I'm most interested in, so I believe it makes a big difference if you are talking about BG style play ( closer to the 2v2 build ) or larger Arena teams. From what I'm seeing, rogues are speccing into Imp Poisons .. but mostly only in the 3's and 5's teams ... so it really depends what your intended playstyle will be.
I'm just looking to add back a PVP spec today for the first time since 3.3 and spent some time reviewing the specs of all the top rated 2v2 rogues over at arenajunkies. None are speccing into Imp Poisons ... but that is only the 2v2 teams which I'm most interested in, so I believe it makes a big difference if you are talking about BG style play ( closer to the 2v2 build ) or larger Arena teams. From what I'm seeing, rogues are speccing into Imp Poisons .. but mostly only in the 3's and 5's teams ... so it really depends what your intended playstyle will be.
There's absolutely no reason why you'd ever want to skip Improved Poison, if you're playing with a healer.
Perhaps you were looking into double-dps teams, although even there I'd prefer Improved Poisons since it's incredibly potent vs plate teams.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
My 3v3 finally got rolling and I'm very happy with my gearing except that I'm still rocking DMC: Death. Given I'll probably never see Bandit's (not really going back to Naxx anytime soon) I was wondering what everyone's feelings were on the badge trinkets
1) Mark of Supremacy. Given the usefulness of hit above the poison cap for stacking DPx5/WP procs, I've really been happy with my hit around the 200-300 mark and it's only dropped down now thanks to switching to the 245 arena daggers. Also the ability to select when to add 1000ap seems decent.
2) Herkumi War Totem. Admitedly this trinket is far stronger in PvE than PvP, but I'm wondering if it isn't valuable enough to overtake DMCeath.
As to spec, I tooled around with all the options before going purely aggressive. If I wasn't rocking 960 res with 25k hps, I'd probably keep Deadened Nerves, but I don't miss it.
Also I dropped Initiative for Serrated Blades because while I liked the guaranteed 5pt opener, I realized that not only do I waste the crit cps (as Grunge mentioned) but also, more importantly, about 90% of my opening kidney shots get trinketed even if they're "only" 4pts. So it's just not as meaningful for me.
While it is true improved envenom does seem very nice for pvp because it goes through armor I think a major downside to it is having to use deadly poison which screws up crowd control I run with a Mage and if I used dp then gouge blind and polymorph would all be almost useless meaning we couldnt cc the heals if we want to get the dps down or I couldnt cc the dps if there blowing up on me or my partner
I'm just looking to add back a PVP spec today for the first time since 3.3 and spent some time reviewing the specs of all the top rated 2v2 rogues over at arenajunkies. None are speccing into Imp Poisons ... but that is only the 2v2 teams which I'm most interested in, so I believe it makes a big difference if you are talking about BG style play ( closer to the 2v2 build ) or larger Arena teams. From what I'm seeing, rogues are speccing into Imp Poisons .. but mostly only in the 3's and 5's teams ... so it really depends what your intended playstyle will be.
I'm not sure what you are looking at. I just took a look at the top 10 rogue teams in 2v2 on ArenaJunkies, and the majority of them have 4 or 5 points in Improved Poisons. Perhaps ArenaJunkies was behind on updating their data when you looked at it?
Im about to spec Mutilate PvP for the first time and as I sit and wonder what spec, gear, glyph etc. I come to realise that I really lack the basic understandings of Mutilate PvP.
Is there a guide somewhere out there, that might help me past the noob stage which answers some of my many questions like:
I'm trying to get geared for pvp at the moment. Several of the pieces I can buy with honor are identical except for the choice of hit rating/crit rating/ armor pen. I figure armor pen is a loss, but with the change to reliance on deadly poison procs, I'm not sure which is better between crit rating and hit rating beyond the specials cap.
Boot enchants are a bit confusing as well, there's icewalker and attack power, and 24 crit. I expected crit to be terrible to enchant/gem for, especially for pvp, but most of the armorys I'm looking up have rogues that have chosen crit rating for their offpieces and boot enchant. Why is this?
Most of the people I've been armorying have taken the pve leg armor and meta as well. With resilience being a much better stat now, would the 40 resilience / 28 stamina leg armor be worth getting instead, or not? And, how effective is 3% increased crit damage with so much resilience floating around? I must admit the 10% duration meta gems don't look completely awesome either.
I would go with mostly pve enchants but also consider others such as the agi/stealth for cloak. I would also consider engineering. Items such as the nitro boots and the rockets are very useful in a pvp environment.
Question, I know at the moment that a mut/prep build is the best for pvp but is combat viable? It definitely has much less control but the damage is ridiculous. With killing spree alone I can shave off 25k against a relentless death knight. It could just be the burst of my pve gear. Cloth wearers are a joke. Before I spec for arenas I wanted to know if combat is viable.
so yea, ive recently looked at an envenom build now, i must say im beginning to like it, but i wasnt really satisfied with the the builds ive seen so far, since im rolling duel dps ive bin trying to figure out something myself.
-note that i have put 3 points in imp KS, and yes i know ppl usually trinket that, but it happens o so very oftent that they use it on CS, which in this case would be awesome on a duel nuke team. and overall it has a 20 sec cd, so it could be used more then once.
-second i didnt put any points into quick recovery since i play duel dps + the hitcap is fine, so i dont think this would be suitable in my situation since im only plaing 2s atm.
-also left 3 points into initiative for the 100% chance that u get that 5cp KS on there.
-i know ive left out duel wield specialization but imo its not that great in comparison to what u could have instead.
Be very very careful with envenom. Just think about it, no gouge, no blind, and there is the chance of breaking other cc that your partner is using as well. While envenom does ignore armor, think about all of the control you have just lost. The damage of eviscerate and envenom are comparable so I see no reason to take envenom over eviscerate. As far as quick recovery goes, if you are only doing 2s that is fine but think ahead. It is my understanding that 2s is only for rating, no points can be received. In 3s and 5s it can be very useful seeing as how we can be easily burst down in a 3s or 5s setup if we are the kill target. In arena we rely on control and burst to eliminate our oponents, its the balance between the two that makes us very strong in a pvp environment.
You still get points from 2v2, just no Gladiator/Relentless Gladiator titles.
As for loss of Control, there's none really unless you're cc'ing the target you switch off from, and in that case you should have another OH dagger with Wound Poison that you can swap to beforehand.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Im about to spec Mutilate PvP for the first time and as I sit and wonder what spec, gear, glyph etc. I come to realise that I really lack the basic understandings of Mutilate PvP.
Is there a guide somewhere out there, that might help me past the noob stage which answers some of my many questions like:
Basic strats for this build and Mutilate PvP in general?
What finisher for this build, Evis or Env?
Glyphs?
Stats to aim for?
When do I swap from my 1.8 offhand to my 1.4 offhand
Which Poisons for mig MH, 2xOH and FOK weapon?
Weapon enchants. Zerg and Weapon Chain?
Enchants in general?
Kind regards.
Ps. I appoligize for my stupidity if this guide is right in front of my nose. Cannot find any.
Best bet for finding a "guide" of sorts is to check out Arena Junkies, Hydramist.net or Roguerogue.com.
But, I'll take a crack at some of your questions...
- That spec is viable...personally I prefer Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, but there are a lot of filler pts you can move around. If I weren't human I'd probably stick with HS over 4/5 DW.
- Mut to build combo pts, pool energy, dump energy. Preferably while ccing or LoSing their partner. Obviously a very vague outline, but more specific strats will vary depending on what comp you're running and what you're facing...AJ is a good resource for specifics.
- Depends on the comp you're facing...the reason you see a lot of rogues take imp evis in an envenom build is for clothies/other rogues. I swap to wound/wound and evis against cloth/rogues...deadly/wound with envenom against plate/mail/druids.
- Glyphs, see the build link above. Generally you want Mut/Vigor and, pick one: Sprint/CloS/Prep.
- Gem/enchant offensively. AP and AP/crit with a nightmare tear. You should be able to sit in ~700 resil with PvP gear and a few PvE off set.
- With poisons fully talented you can run 2 1.8 daggers, either deadly/wound or wound/wound as mentioned above. A 1.4 can be handy to shiv Anesthetic. I run 2 MHs, 2 OHs. First set, Deadly on 1.8 MH, W on 1.8 OH (to shiv w/crip). Second set W 1.8 MH/W 1.8 OH. With a 1.4 OH for Anesthetic shivs. No need for a specific FoK wep.
- Zerk MH, chain OH.
- Enchants are basically the same as PvE, go for the highest damage option available except for shadow armor.
I know at the moment that a mut/prep build is the best for pvp but is combat viable?
I've played around with combat in 2s, it's definitely viable there...I wouldn't use it in 3s though, prep is just too valuable compared to the raw damage output of combat. Plus you run the risk of diluting KSpr damage across additional targets. And I used it before the poison buff, I'm not sure it's necessarily all that much more pressure than envenom right now.
Be very very careful with envenom. Just think about it, no gouge, no blind, and there is the chance of breaking other cc that your partner is using as well. While envenom does ignore armor, think about all of the control you have just lost. The damage of eviscerate and envenom are comparable so I see no reason to take envenom over eviscerate.
You don't lose as much control as you think, you just have to take dp into consideration. I.E. plan to blind/gouge your off target instead.
Besides, think about the top comps rogues run. RMP - the mage can use glyph of polymorph, minimal control lost, huge damage gained (against some comps anyway). RRP - pretty much a tunnel vision comp, any damage upgrade is worthwhile. RLS - locks buff poison/envenom damage so much I can't imagine running the old 41/5/25 build and they can fear poisoned targets anyway.
And I'm not sure if you've run envenom spec lately, but the damage against plate/mail is most definitely not comparable.
11/12/09, 11:53 PM
eath.
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