[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Page 112

Blackasaurus · 12/31/09, 5:45 PM

Is DN better than QR in dual dps teams?

maratixz · 12/31/09, 10:28 PM

In regards to the last post a duel dps team is supposed to just output damage faster then the other team can either heal or deal damage to your team, also since it seems that those finising moves just never seem to hit, it seems that quick recovery would be more effect then deadened nerves.

Also for envenom spec 44/2/25 it seems necessary to have a 1.4 OH with Deadly Poison so you can shiv and apply deadly most effectively.

Palanuial · 01/02/10, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Blackasaurus

Is DN better than QR in dual dps teams?

In terms of survivability, you'd have to be healed for roughly 20% of your HP each match for QR to be better than DN. (point for point)

Sealfon · 01/04/10, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by maratixz

In regards to the last post a duel dps team is supposed to just output damage faster then the other team can either heal or deal damage to your team, also since it seems that those finising moves just never seem to hit, it seems that quick recovery would be more effect then deadened nerves.

Also for envenom spec 44/2/25 it seems necessary to have a 1.4 OH with Deadly Poison so you can shiv and apply deadly most effectively.

If you're taking the poison talents (and you should) stacks go up quickly with DP on a slow MH. A 1.4 OH is fine for getting quick stacks up if you prefer, but not necessary since the last patch.

The only time you should ever really shiv is a drive by crippling application (through wound/deadly brew), or to dispel an enrage.

mattipanduro · 01/08/10, 7:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sealfon

Best bet for finding a "guide" of sorts is to check out Arena Junkies, Hydramist.net or Roguerogue.com.

But, I'll take a crack at some of your questions...

- That spec is viable...personally I prefer Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, but there are a lot of filler pts you can move around. If I weren't human I'd probably stick with HS over 4/5 DW.
- Mut to build combo pts, pool energy, dump energy. Preferably while ccing or LoSing their partner. Obviously a very vague outline, but more specific strats will vary depending on what comp you're running and what you're facing...AJ is a good resource for specifics.
- Depends on the comp you're facing...the reason you see a lot of rogues take imp evis in an envenom build is for clothies/other rogues. I swap to wound/wound and evis against cloth/rogues...deadly/wound with envenom against plate/mail/druids.
- Glyphs, see the build link above. Generally you want Mut/Vigor and, pick one: Sprint/CloS/Prep.
- Gem/enchant offensively. AP and AP/crit with a nightmare tear. You should be able to sit in ~700 resil with PvP gear and a few PvE off set.
- With poisons fully talented you can run 2 1.8 daggers, either deadly/wound or wound/wound as mentioned above. A 1.4 can be handy to shiv Anesthetic. I run 2 MHs, 2 OHs. First set, Deadly on 1.8 MH, W on 1.8 OH (to shiv w/crip). Second set W 1.8 MH/W 1.8 OH. With a 1.4 OH for Anesthetic shivs. No need for a specific FoK wep.
- Zerk MH, chain OH.
- Enchants are basically the same as PvE, go for the highest damage option available except for shadow armor.

Thanks Sealfon that helped allot. I´ve been away for some days, hence my delayed thanks post

primanocto · 01/16/10, 12:56 PM

hi all i was just wondering at this moment i use death's verdict combined with titan forged rune of determination but i just recently won needle encrusted scorpion for my pve spec what is the best way 2 use in my pvp?
using it togheter with my death's verdict or replacing death's verdict ( btw my pvp build is 41/5/25)
also now i'm gemming as much as possible with +40 attack gem's if i need 2 use arp trink should i gems also as much arp gems as possible or stay with my attack gems?

drumbum · 01/16/10, 5:37 PM

As far as offensive trinkets go, keep using Death's Verdict. It's one of the best PVP trinkets you can get.

Having said that, most people consider the Battlemaster trinket more important because it keeps you alive.

Edrielle · 01/17/10, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by maratixz

Also for envenom spec 44/2/25 it seems necessary to have a 1.4 OH with Deadly Poison so you can shiv and apply deadly most effectively.

No, not necessarily so. 1,8 - 1,8 weapons with DP on mainhand and WP on offhand actually works out very well too. I recently had to chose between buying a second shanker or a Shiv and I used my PvE weapons (1,8 and 1,4) alongside the Shanker I already have to see if Deadly Poison applied slower with the 1,8-1,8 setup than with 1,8-1,4. My conclusion was - not really. I in the end thus picked up a second Shanker though I don't really believe it would matter much. You trade off somewhat higher mutilate damage for (what I saw in my recount as a) 9% less energy from Focused Attacks (as I recall it was 40% from FA and 60% from Relentless Strikes with 1,8-1,4 versus 31% FA and 69% RS with 1,8-18. I stupidly did not check the amount of energy gained from both or I just don't recall it but I stopped at the same amount of melee hits (~150) on both attempts.

drumbum · 01/18/10, 11:49 AM

Well, by definition, the Shiv will apply Deadly Poison about 29% faster. And once you have a 5-stack up, you'll start applying Wound Poison at that same improved rate. There's a definite advantage, but it's not game-breaking.

Most top rogues aren't using Focused Attacks. The combination of high resilience reducing crit chance and the the energy gain being spread out isn't very useful in a game that generally focuses on burst damage. But the alternatives aren't too great either.

Papercat · 01/25/10, 1:43 PM

Hi,

With Dk's and Warriors beeing frequent in arenas, you probable should take an Envenom spec wich causes a lot of "continu" domage :

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

So you can do the same amount of damge on Dk's than on Priests.

Combo -> Mutilate
Finisher -> Envenom

Cycle : Cheap shot, mutilate, kidney shot, mutilate, shiv, cold blood, envenom

MH : Wound Poison
OffH : Deadly Poison

Find weakness is slitly bit better in 2c2 than deadened nerves if you play with a priest.

Sideostealth · 01/29/10, 7:51 PM

Hey guys,

Sorry if this has already been asked( I have looked and not found). I have Titan Rune as 1 trinket for pvp, and I have a choice of 90 agi darkmoon card or the Needle-Encrusted Scorpion. I think the arm pen would be very nice, however, I am doing envenom spec, so I dont have to worry about armor too much. However, the extra crit would be nice.

So can any of you give me any advice as to which one I should use?

Also, gemming arm pen vs AP? What do you think? I was thinking arm pen for the extra dmg, and I would be inclined to think that the reducing armor would be more worth it than more dps which can be mitigated more.

Thanks in advance.

Palanuial · 02/01/10, 3:20 AM

For mutilate, gem AP. It's much better than arpen.

drumbum · 02/01/10, 6:43 PM

Gem AP and use the Darkmoon Card.

Zyz · 02/01/10, 9:49 PM

If anyone is interested, I have a page on my website that shows what items players are getting for season 8.
It currently grabs data of 2 top arena players from each class and will show which pieces they get as they progress through the season.

Gear Check: Season 8 | ArenaMasters | World of Warcraft Arena PVP

As for next season, the typical envenom mutilate looks to be the most appealing choice.
Hunger for blood with 5/5 DW spec could be alright as well, but considering its only 5% damage now, i'm not too sure how it will stand up for ladder play.

For mutilate, this seems to be the most efficient way to gem

3x [Bright Dragon's Eye]
1x [Nightmare Tear] (get the best socket bonus, ie +8ap or +6agi, etc)

Everything else: [Bright Cardinal Ruby]

I still can't decide on a meta gem.
While most people seem to have switched over to [Persistent Earthsiege Diamond], I've still been using the agi/crit damage one.

I'm curious to hear any opinions on whether the crit damage meta is even worth it anymore

Sealfon · 02/02/10, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Zyz

For mutilate, this seems to be the most efficient way to gem

3x [Bright Dragon's Eye]
1x [Nightmare Tear] (get the best socket bonus, ie +8ap or +6agi, etc)

Everything else: [Bright Cardinal Ruby]

I still can't decide on a meta gem.
While most people seem to have switched over to [Persistent Earthsiege Diamond], I've still been using the agi/crit damage one.

If you switch over to PED as a meta you need at least two yellow gems. So a NT and an AP/x gem at least. Though for any decent socket bonus I'd still expect orange gems to be worth it.

Flechette · 02/02/10, 4:23 PM

This seems like the correct thread for this question...

How important is the Master of Deception talent (and further, Camouflage) to successful PvP as a rogue? I tend to have specs that could really use those few points elsewhere.

Vonlego · 02/03/10, 4:26 AM

They're very important if you intend to use stealth. I know that sounds pretty straight forward, blunt, and obvious, but whenever I've tried to drop those talents with goof off builds the stealth was painful.

Shadire · 02/03/10, 7:58 PM

I am planning to embark on a disc/feral/rogue team for 3v3.

We will start with me and feral in PvE gear (we're pretty well stacked with 255 average ilvl) and so need very fast burst to take down weakest enemy immediately if we want to have any chances.

And so comes the question what would be the best spec and talent build for that task. Is standard prep-muti still preferred or is killing spree going to work out better in that case?

Vonlego · 02/04/10, 6:23 AM

Mute prep is likely still best. KS is quite buggy and combat lacks the burst required otherwise.

Palanuial · 02/04/10, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Flechette

How important is the Master of Deception talent (and further, Camouflage) to successful PvP as a rogue? I tend to have specs that could really use those few points elsewhere.

It depends on the way you play your comp. The more time you spend in stealth against teams with other rogues, the more valuable MoD becomes. It has some value outside rogue/rogue aswell, but you can easily skip down to 2/3 and even 1/3 without sacrificing much in terms of being seen by players in general. As for camouflage, it shortens the time it takes to get to your target, which is a good thing. Especially if you play rush-down. Though, considering how much there is to gain through a clean opener, I don't really see where you'd but those points to use.

e: I guess that may or may not hold at level 77 and with a hemo-specc. But I'd say mobility and stealth is even more important in a solo-environment.

Sealfon · 02/05/10, 9:46 AM

Originally Posted by Palanuial

It depends on the way you play your comp. The more time you spend in stealth against teams with other rogues, the more valuable MoD becomes. It has some value outside rogue/rogue aswell, but you can easily skip down to 2/3 and even 1/3 without sacrificing much in terms of being seen by players in general. As for camouflage, it shortens the time it takes to get to your target, which is a good thing. Especially if you play rush-down. Though, considering how much there is to gain through a clean opener, I don't really see where you'd but those points to use.

e: I guess that may or may not hold at level 77 and with a hemo-specc. But I'd say mobility and stealth is even more important in a solo-environment.

I wouldn't give up camouflage in any spec. The increased stealth speed is nice, obviously, but the cooldown reduction on stealth is what makes that talent mandatory. Getting off restealths is often game changing.

Maybe in a HfB rogue cleave (RRP?) you could skip it, but most standard specs/comps will want it.

You could sacrifice MoD I guess, but assuming you're going down to prep there's really no need to, none of the other options are all that compelling. And if you're not taking HS it's probably a bad idea.

Slickshoes · 02/15/10, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by Papercat

Hi,

With Dk's and Warriors beeing frequent in arenas, you probable should take an Envenom spec wich causes a lot of "continu" domage :

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

So you can do the same amount of damge on Dk's than on Priests.

Combo -> Mutilate
Finisher -> Envenom

Cycle : Cheap shot, mutilate, kidney shot, mutilate, shiv, cold blood, envenom

MH : Wound Poison
OffH : Deadly Poison

Find weakness is slitly bit better in 2c2 than deadened nerves if you play with a priest.

There really is no reason not to take Heightened Senses unless you enjoy being opened on.
Also shiv really should't be in your rotation unless deadly simply fails to land.

Vonlego · 02/16/10, 8:55 AM

Heightened Senses can be dropped, and typically is by NE/HU rogues as they're not on a strict disadvantage when dropping the talent.

Yes, the talent is pretty good and not a desired one to drop, but the return is two more points in DW. We all know how great a talent DW is for raw damage, including the mutilate OH damage, so being able to grab two more ranks is very nice.

I dropped Heightened Senses a few months ago and have not looked back. Occasionally I'll trade saps with a rogue I might have otherwise picked up, and rogue vs rogue duels can be annoying (typically I just trade openers with anyone I duel for any period of time to avoid this). My game play changed slightly, I no longer search around for that sap for long. If you are comfortable playing a more aggressive game, and are human or NE, I suggest dropping HS. If you do not have stealth bonuses from your race I would be inclined to suggest keeping HS; however, I have not given the idea much thought as it does not pertain to me.

Kaage · 02/16/10, 11:53 AM

I have been running with 3 1.8 daggers and I haven't had a problem stacking deadly poison.

MH 1: Deadly
MH 2: Wound
OH: Wound

Against Plate/Shaman/Druids I run with deadly/wound and against rogues/cloth classes I run wound/wound. Yes you lose the ability to shiv deadly poisons which makes switching targets not as efficient, however my deadly poison stack usually starts as soon as I open on my target. From what I have seen the damage from 1.8(deadly)/1.8(wound) weapons outweighs 1.8(wound)/1.4(deadly), and against rogue/caster teams you just switch MHs and run 1.8(wound)/1.8(wound).

Marauder_IIc · 02/16/10, 12:34 PM

I had a thought on a variation of the standard Mut spec(s) for PVP. Since many do not fully max and in some cases use at all DW, and all gemming generally aims towards AP, I thought of this. The World of Warcraft Armory

I mentioned it in a different forum, and was told it defeated the purpose of a Mut spec, which I did not understand. I know my gear is very low, and I have not really PVPed since early first season this expansion, so I am at the stages of early PVP gearing and just trying to get my grove down again. So, thoughts on the build please.