[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Page 113

Sealfon · 02/16/10, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Marauder_IIc

I had a thought on a variation of the standard Mut spec(s) for PVP. Since many do not fully max and in some cases use at all DW, and all gemming generally aims towards AP, I thought of this. The World of Warcraft Armory

I mentioned it in a different forum, and was told it defeated the purpose of a Mut spec, which I did not understand. I know my gear is very low, and I have not really PVPed since early first season this expansion, so I am at the stages of early PVP gearing and just trying to get my grove down again. So, thoughts on the build please.

While the AP increase may look nice on your paper doll you're going to take a pretty significant hit on damage output.

You're missing out on Master Poisoner, which is a staple of mut specs now. MP allows us to really take advantage of poison/envenom damage bypassing armor - the only way we can do anything to high armor classes. It also skips DW specialization, which is one of our nicer dps talents point for point (and don't forget, that effects mutilates as well).

Both of those abilities are going to pay bigger dividends than a few hundred AP.

It's not sexy, but a standard 44/x/x build is going to be a lot more effective.

Marauder_IIc · 02/16/10, 5:13 PM

OK, thanks for the clarification.

Solesoslav · 02/19/10, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Sealfon

Best bet for finding a "guide" of sorts is to check out Arena Junkies, Hydramist.net or Roguerogue.com.

But, I'll take a crack at some of your questions...

- That spec is viable...personally I prefer Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, but there are a lot of filler pts you can move around. If I weren't human I'd probably stick with HS over 4/5 DW.
- Mut to build combo pts, pool energy, dump energy. Preferably while ccing or LoSing their partner. Obviously a very vague outline, but more specific strats will vary depending on what comp you're running and what you're facing...AJ is a good resource for specifics.
- Depends on the comp you're facing...the reason you see a lot of rogues take imp evis in an envenom build is for clothies/other rogues. I swap to wound/wound and evis against cloth/rogues...deadly/wound with envenom against plate/mail/druids.
- Glyphs, see the build link above. Generally you want Mut/Vigor and, pick one: Sprint/CloS/Prep.
- Gem/enchant offensively. AP and AP/crit with a nightmare tear. You should be able to sit in ~700 resil with PvP gear and a few PvE off set.
- With poisons fully talented you can run 2 1.8 daggers, either deadly/wound or wound/wound as mentioned above. A 1.4 can be handy to shiv Anesthetic. I run 2 MHs, 2 OHs. First set, Deadly on 1.8 MH, W on 1.8 OH (to shiv w/crip). Second set W 1.8 MH/W 1.8 OH. With a 1.4 OH for Anesthetic shivs. No need for a specific FoK wep.
- Zerk MH, chain OH.
- Enchants are basically the same as PvE, go for the highest damage option available except for shadow armor.

I've played around with combat in 2s, it's definitely viable there...I wouldn't use it in 3s though, prep is just too valuable compared to the raw damage output of combat. Plus you run the risk of diluting KSpr damage across additional targets. And I used it before the poison buff, I'm not sure it's necessarily all that much more pressure than envenom right now.

You don't lose as much control as you think, you just have to take dp into consideration. I.E. plan to blind/gouge your off target instead.

Besides, think about the top comps rogues run. RMP - the mage can use glyph of polymorph, minimal control lost, huge damage gained (against some comps anyway). RRP - pretty much a tunnel vision comp, any damage upgrade is worthwhile. RLS - locks buff poison/envenom damage so much I can't imagine running the old 41/5/25 build and they can fear poisoned targets anyway.

And I'm not sure if you've run envenom spec lately, but the damage against plate/mail is most definitely not comparable.

I've found this post very helpful, thank you. But I've encountered a problem. Namely while dueling my friend a mage, I couldn't seem to get a stack of DP so my combo points were overfloving and I had to use Evi instead of Envenom. I don't know how this happened, maybe I should use shiv to get the stacks of DP so that I could use Env in time to refresh SnD. This is my talent tree.
What poisons should I use aginst my friend mage(he always tells me he is a better player than me just because I play PvE and he plays PvP)? Could I get any other PvP tip?

Sealfon · 02/19/10, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by Solesoslav

I've found this post very helpful, thank you. But I've encountered a problem. Namely while dueling my friend a mage, I couldn't seem to get a stack of DP so my combo points were overfloving and I had to use Evi instead of Envenom. I don't know how this happened, maybe I should use shiv to get the stacks of DP so that I could use Env in time to refresh SnD. This is my talent tree.
What poisons should I use aginst my friend mage(he always tells me he is a better player than me just because I play PvE and he plays PvP)? Could I get any other PvP tip?

Well, that's a PvE build, so you're starting behind the eight ball as it is. If you want to run HfB in arenas you basically need to run a comp that has dispels, and even then you'd want to tweak that spec quite a bit. If you want to duel with that spec, I dunno, maybe wound/crip? To be honest it doesn't really matter, if you're dueling a competent pvp specced mage with that spec you're going to lose.

Imo a well played/geared mage has an advantage against well played/geared rogues as it is...1v1 against a rogue without prep seems like a free win to me.

Solesoslav · 02/20/10, 12:52 PM

Well changing spec wouldn't be a problem, just what rotation should I use with the new spec?
He doesn't have good gear, he is mostly blue, but seems to have some skill in PvP. He suprised me once with a Arcane Explosion, it had a much greater range than I expected and afther that 2 times I almost got the upper hand but he blinked/froze himself and than blinked. He is Arcane speced so I don't have to worry about Barrier of Ice or Water Elementals, but man does he rape me with slow. I don't know when I should use cloak of shadows?

DrRusty · 02/23/10, 6:30 AM

What would give more damage overall? Find weakness or seal fate? Assuming you're only using 3 points

Zamze · 02/25/10, 7:20 PM

ok so ive been playing subtley for a while and killed mages a few times but lost alot, on the othe rhand i had alot of problems with other classes except for rogues. im currently playing mut/prep and its working much better on all classes but its going worse against the frost mages.

So what im thinking is dual speccing.
keeping the mut/prep against everyone else, and building a spec thats best against frost mages.
so i need help with that build, im thinking combat for the kicks and the sprint, changing char to blood elf etc.

please help

edit: also what weapon i should use. like i said im thinking combat, fist in main and dagger in off.
altough i was wondering if subtley would be better as well with 20 sec cd in new patch with 180% hemo.
tactics is welcome as well or link to that.
also what glyphs to use.

Troisloeil · 02/25/10, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by Zamze

ok so ive been playing subtley for a while and killed mages a few times but lost alot, on the othe rhand i had alot of problems with other classes except for rogues. im currently playing mut/prep and its working much better on all classes but its going worse against the frost mages.

So what im thinking is dual speccing.
keeping the mut/prep against everyone else, and building a spec thats best against frost mages.
so i need help with that build, im thinking combat for the kicks and the sprint, changing char to blood elf etc.

please help

edit: also what weapon i should use. like i said im thinking combat, fist in main and dagger in off.
altough i was wondering if subtley would be better as well with 20 sec cd in new patch with 180% hemo.
tactics is welcome as well or link to that.
also what glyphs to use.

I'm not sure Combat alone is the answer. It's not the snares and slows, it's the Blink. With the loss of the interrupt for Deadly Throw, keeping them in range is getting to be nearly impossible, and burning 2 talent points to get it back, with no other real benefit, is a choice I haven't been able to make. It's to deep in the Combat tree.
So far the only real advantage I'm seeing with Combat against a Mage is I seem to be much harder for him to kill (no real idea why). So if I'm wise with my CD's, there's a chance I can last long enough to catch him during a cool down. Timing of the Vanish reset seems to be KEY in getting a win.

Zamze · 02/25/10, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Troisloeil

I'm not sure Combat alone is the answer. It's not the snares and slows, it's the Blink. With the loss of the interrupt for Deadly Throw, keeping them in range is getting to be nearly impossible, and burning 2 talent points to get it back, with no other real benefit, is a choice I haven't been able to make. It's to deep in the Combat tree.
So far the only real advantage I'm seeing with Combat against a Mage is I seem to be much harder for him to kill (no real idea why). So if I'm wise with my CD's, there's a chance I can last long enough to catch him during a cool down. Timing of the Vanish reset seems to be KEY in getting a win.

yeah but i was thinking a pure anti frost mage build, so with new patch Patch 3.3.3 PTR Patch Notes Posted! - The Wowhead Blog maybe u can go with subtley up to shadowstep and combat for the kick and sprint to max anti mage ?
anyone else with any pure anti mage idees as horde?

with this as blood elf i can silence him for 7 seconds, and with the sprint its like an extra trinket against a frost mage.
he blinks out and i can shadowstep after him and keep up with him.

also thankful to the best possible current strategies against frost mage.

Vikken · 03/08/10, 9:21 PM

I've been searching here and elsewhere, but I can't seem to work out which stats to focus on with a subtlety build. I do know that Armor Penetration is up there, but when I run Rawr, it still weights agility much higher. I'm thinking that would be because of the sinister calling, but I'm not at confident that its (Rawr's) model is working correctly for subtlety.

Keep in mind, I've been running a subtlety build for the last week or so in battlegrounds and that is mainly my focus for this build. I'm running a Vigor/Shadow Dance build (11/0/60). I works fairly well, but I need to optimize my gear for it. As best I can tell, it looks like resiliance is destroying the DPS of this build. I don't know which stats to focus on to counteract the effects. (ie. Crit Rating, AP/Agi, ArPen)

Herostan · 03/11/10, 11:54 PM

Subtlety's damage output will always be poor outside of dance; the loss of wound (or deadly) on your offhand, the poor combo point generation and the loss of DW spec just mean the damage output is poor. Subtlety right now, is very much a blow all your cooldowns for pretty insane burst and land a kill. Even upcoming changes wont have a big affect, its alright for cloth, terrible for plate.

Trying to stack ARP simply isnt worth it, you wont get it high enough without running heavy pve gear, which if you want to go for it, but you'l die pretty quick, your best bet is go AP because you have crit from talents on ambush/backstab and you get talents which increase your AP; ultimately however your damage will always be sub-par, its simply the spec which is weak - hence nobody runs it.

Ashtoncutter · 03/22/10, 11:07 AM

I made this spec, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, but can't decide where to put the last 2 points in.
Is Dual Wield better than Master of Subtlety?

Chaggi · 03/22/10, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by Ashtoncutter

I made this spec, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft, but can't decide where to put the last 2 points in.
Is Dual Wield better than Master of Subtlety?

It is much better. 2/5 Dual Wield is a minimum, while 4/5 is much more ideal.

Brotherbear · 03/23/10, 3:02 PM

So I've been looking over the changes in 3.3.3 for subtlety, and honestly I still don't see shadow dance daggers overtaking Mut/Prep in arenas.

Mind you I'm lazy and hate the positioning requirement on backstab, so I'm biased. Has anyone run the numbers/plans to give it a go?

DarKnightVIII · 03/23/10, 3:24 PM

Unfortunately the demands on my time are becoming more and more significant, so raiding and doing Arena's seriously are out of the question. So, back to BG's and playing this game for kicks and giggles (and a server transfer to a PvP realm...going Alliance again, suggestions are welcome. BG9? Otherwise it's back to the Stormstrike battlegroup for me).

BG specs that I'm contemplating are below, and I'd like to get feedback. These are strictly for BG's and have no relevance to Arena's as Sub stands at the moment.

3.3.3 Sub Spec (s):

0/25/46

Glyphs: Sprint/Ghostly Strike, and either Prep or Rupture

25/0/46

Glyphs: Vigor/Ghostly Strike/Sprint, (optionally either Prep or Rupture for one of the other glyphs)

Focus is going to be on fun, and creating as much havoc as possible. I'm going to run a mix of PvE/PvP gear. Hence the reason I opted out of Cheat Death since I probably won't have enough resil to make it worth while, but that could change later on. Also, I'm rerolling as human, so I personally won't need Heightened Senses.

Weps: MH Bone Warden's Splitter, OH Scourgeborne Waraxe.

I'm not going to fool around with ShD, mainly because my daggers are sub-par at best.

With the buffs to Sub in 3.3.3, what does everyone think about these specs?

Jankage · 03/23/10, 4:27 PM

They will probably still be considered novelty specs. There's not much there to tempt anyone from moving away from the standard mutilate spec, except for maybe boredom. Plus the Master Poisoner "utility" that you provide to your 3s team is pretty big. It's not worth giving up.

Chaggi · 03/23/10, 6:43 PM

Positioning aside, I can't see Sub being better than Mutilate in more cases than Mutilate just completely blows away Sub.

neverl3ss · 03/28/10, 4:14 AM

I've been reading a bit and I'm fairly decent with pvp, 2200 kills thus far and I'm finally looking to head into serious arena play. I just wanted a few opinions on if it would be more beneficial to gem for socket bonuses or to go all AP except what I need for my meta? ( I am currently wearing all furious/relentless gear from raids and bg's)

dahrak · 03/29/10, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by neverl3ss

I've been reading a bit and I'm fairly decent with pvp, 2200 kills thus far and I'm finally looking to head into serious arena play. I just wanted a few opinions on if it would be more beneficial to gem for socket bonuses or to go all AP except what I need for my meta? ( I am currently wearing all furious/relentless gear from raids and bg's)

Yes, you should go with all AP gems, except what you need for your meta gem (a single Nightmare Tear may do the trick, depending what meta you go with).

nagast · 04/01/10, 1:40 AM

Thank you

Kermits-finger · 04/02/10, 11:01 AM

I have read several comments now about using two 1.8 speed weapons instead of using a 1.8 and a 1.4 for mutilate specs now. What is it about the last patch that changed the tradition of using the fastest offhand you could find to stack deadly poisons? The only changes I saw in the patch notes regarding rogues was a change to rupture and a bunch of subtlety changes?

candlegarden · 04/05/10, 8:22 AM

May be I should ask this question else where as it seems EJ regulars are mostly focused on PvE but I will give it a shot since chances are high that if I get a reply I know it will be a useful one

Me & my partner play rogue/disc (we started this season and we had very little prior arena experience) and we are kind of stuck at 1600-1700 rating. No I'm not going to ask advice on how to get higher rating but we really have a hard time against rogue/mage teams.

Here is how it usually goes for us: Mage comes out and 3-4 secs later uses invisibility following the rogue. The rogue comes to my priest and suddenly the mage pops out and starts stealing the priests buffs. If I open up on the mage the rogue will open up on me and for us 90% of the time it's over here because they will use sheep/blind on the priest and nuke me down in 6-7 seconds max. Some times the other rogue gets lucky and saps me and they keep me in check and nuke the priest instead. Priest running back and forth aoeing hoping to get rogue out does not really help because rogue is just showing the way and does not really get close to the priest.

Until now the only thing we tried to do unsuccesfully is the priest to mount up and run until the invis is over, after which I can sap the mage and priest can dispell him but opponent rogues somehow always get a sap off on him mounted and it's same thing all over.

Yes we are far from the better teams out there and we will need a lot of luck to break even 1.8k but losing to the same setup who always use the same tactic is frustrating and any help will be appreciated.

GooGles · 04/07/10, 6:01 PM

How useful is Glyph of Sprint and is it really a good substitute for Glyph of Vigor?

Stel · 04/08/10, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by GooGles

How useful is Glyph of Sprint and is it really a good substitute for Glyph of Vigor?

I found the speed boost to be quite nice for running out of combat range fast and sneak, or to go cripple/gouge someone far and then quickly getting to your burst target. As for it replacing Vigor, I doubt so. I'm still learning in the PvP field but to my understanding, the generally accepted set of majors is Mutilate and Vigor, with 3rd one being Sprint/Evasion/Cloak of Shadows, depending on your playstyle/personnal preference.

A larger energy pool is always nice for better bursts after engaging/pooling.

Originally Posted by Kermits-finger

I have read several comments now about using two 1.8 speed weapons instead of using a 1.8 and a 1.4 for mutilate specs now. What is it about the last patch that changed the tradition of using the fastest offhand you could find to stack deadly poisons? The only changes I saw in the patch notes regarding rogues was a change to rupture and a bunch of subtlety changes?

Again, to my understanding the difference between 1.8/1.4 and dual 1.8s is pretty thin. It seems to boil down to slightly faster energy generation through white hit procs versus slightly higher mutilates (there's a post about it a couple of pages back in this thread). As for deadly poison, I think it's better to have it applied to MH, with Wound on OH so you can shiv for guaranteed application and crippling poison proc, or at least it's what I've seen recommended on various places.

Palanuial · 04/08/10, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by candlegarden

Rogue/Priest vs Rogue/Mage

Have your priest position himself next to a LoS-object. Get on the mage ASAP, the less he gets to spellsteal the better. From here on and out a lot of stuff can happen, but what you need to focus on is not letting the mage sheep your priest (interrupts/SW

), getting the rogue out of stealth/vanish (denying him his openers), breaking their momentum in any way is key, and not letting them run off and reset. All the while you need to look for opportunities to get in some proper damage, both the rogue and the mage can be killed pretty fast if you're able to catch them with their CD's down.

It can be a very fast-paced matchup, all it takes is a stun on you and a stun/interrupt/cc on your priest for them to kill you if they coordinate well and/or RNG rolls their way.