Tiiki

I tend to go for the bonuses but it's just personal preference. I'd go for 10.5k HP, ~400 resi and then consider gemming for damage... or so.

I'm not sure about Meta- I can't decide between 5% stun and 3% crit damage atm.... views?

 

• LodeRunner

For combat you may consider one of those AP/runspeed metas so you can get surefooted on the boots. I currently am using the Zul'jin hat on my Rogue with arena stuff in every other slot because every other gear slot needed more immediate attention, so I'm currently without a metagem slot. For S3 I will probably do AP/runspeed with surefooted.

 

Tiiki

I don't follow the logic - is the 10 hit rating so valuable?

You're trading, survivability wise, 5% snare for 5% stun (the latter is far better), or... 3% crit damage (also better than 10 hit rating?) and after that you're looking at 9stam on boots + 18 stam on hat or agi if you're going with Cat's/TSD etc.

But the core 5% trade is a bad one...

 

Fenwick

I think I'm having a large dumb moment, but what's the "core 5% trade"? Are you saying the better meta is the 5% chance to stun?

And I was planning on the boar's enchant on my boots, but is surefooted better off?

 

Tiiki

Sorry, wasn't being clear.

If you don't put run speed on boots, you get Surefooted, which is 10 hit rating and 5% resistance to snares/roots.

But you need run speed on Meta gem (one of the weakest metas, I think?), or to be mutilate (then you get lovely 15% run speed and 15% snare/root, total).

OR

You put Boar's speed on boots, for 9 stam, minor run speed

But you get to put stun resist gem in head: 18stam+5% stun resist. Or if you want dps: 12 agility+3% crit damage

Personally I'm not convinced by the Surefooted/non-mutilate/Runspeed Meta combo. I think 5% stun is outrageously better than 5% snare/root, and 3% crit damage is close too. Especially as 0/31/30 has so many root breaks anyway (but the same single trinket stun break). But... if someone can convince me why I'm wrong, I'm all ears (please do it before I gem my S3 helm :P)

Cheers!

 

• LodeRunner

I was mostly thinking about the snare resist. I don't get focused most of the time in my 2v2 but I do get snared a lot in the other team's attempt to keep me off their dudes. Anything to reduce that snare is a plus in my book but I may be overvaluing it.

 

Tiiki

You do make a good point: stuns only happen when you're focused, snares happen all the frickin' time. Actually that's a hidden big plus to Mutilate's 15% snare resist. Deep Subt with enveloping shadows could be interesting for that reason too.

The problem with all this theorycrafting is that it only really applies to fives, surely? You say 2v2, but don't warrior teams get on you? In 3s and especially 2s, you need to choose stuff that reflects the fact you'll be focused a lot more of the time, I would've thought- and that's what makes AR/Prep so appealing (you can tank melee) and the stun gem too.

It's actually a very tricky dilemma !

 

Rads

I'm using the 24ap/minor speed meta and 12 agi on boots because the stamina/stun resist one gives me stamina that I don't need (I already have 10.7k hp). I choose 12 agi over Surefooted because S3 gear has hit and 5% snare resist is very low. Generally snares are spammed and applied multiple times.

 

Vestalina

Surefooted is great. 5% Snare resistance is better then 0% snare resistance.

But that topic aside, I want to share something with everyone here that might be somewhat overlooked.

I believe that for S3 if you are AR/PREP that stacking attack power is key... but what do you stack after you have sufficient AP, stam, and resilience?

IMO: STACK +HIT (assuming you are smart and using MACES as AR/PREP, hopefully my team gets to 1850+ by the end of the week even though fist weapons look ridiculously cooler then any other weapon).

Every time you successfully hit your target, you have a chance to stun them... leaving them unable to do anything for seconds at a time. I don't believe there's any point in stacking +crit if you are AR/PREP maces. I plan to socket most of my S3 gear with +4 hit +4 agi (Glinting Noble Topaz) because with the full set you should reach 400 resilience and 10500+ hit points without socketing any stam or resilience gems in them.

On top of that, the gear offers +hit already (which is awesome). With about 150 hit rating and precision, you will miss VERY little. Imagine the nuisance you will be to ANY target you're on. WepEx is awesome too (nuff said).

What does everyone else think? Or am I on my island here?

+HIT is definitely for the win in my book for S3 (assuming you reach what you need for AP,STAM,RES first).

 

Avair

I entered Season 3 as an undergeared late S2 rogue. I had managed to pick up S2 Maces, but nothing else. I did however manage to save up enough honor to buy 2 Vindicators plus 2 (almost 3) S1 pieces of gear. I expect it will be a large boost in my effectiveness, as I'm finally above 400 resilience for the first time.

Gemming/Enchanting
I'm also going with the surefoot enchant + run speed meta. For me, 5% snare resist, 24 AP, 10 hit rating > 5% stun, 27 Stamina (Boars + Brutal Earthstorm). Especially since I'm above 10k hp/4k resil now, I can start gemming/enchanting for offensive stats, rather than stamina. As a bonus, the runspeed meta requires less blue gems, so I can focus on AP and hit gems.

Stacking Hit
As far as Hit goes, getting to where you never miss a special seems to be the key. I'm assuming its 5-6% for PvP. S3 helps there with some hit on pieces, but I still plan to gem for it.

 

Tiiki

Vestalina:

I don't necessarily agree- Mace Stuns are on DR, the quicker you 'use them up', the less control you have later AND the more chance you overlap one in a CS or KS (totally wasted). From a pure Mace Stun perspective, you actually want to MINIMISE hit. Sounds crazy, but my logic is that I'd rather get a big CS/KS on open, with no wasted Mace Procs (or a nice one to link the two) but then that further Mace Procs come later, whilst KS is on cooldown... I'm only offering a narrow analysis (of course hit is great), but so were you

4agi/4hit is also quite bad because you lose on deadliness.

2 of those = 8AP -> 9AP, 8 hit with deadliness.
2 x 16 ap red gems = 32 AP -> 35AP

Then again, AP gets nothing from Kings, so maybe 8 agi is best if you're in a team with a Paladin... (I am, but I'm still planning on socketing 2 x 16 AP in chest).

The 10 ap / 4 hit epic gem is also awesome.

Also, I'm not sure any PvP rogue is taking WepEx... are they?

I'm slowly being convinced on this meta/boots enchant... maybe. I'm suprised people are really gemming EVERY slot for damage though. I was planning on Mystic Dawnstones or Steady Talasite for the neck and chest yellow slots? Are you all just socketing crit/hit in those?

I had 11.2k unbuffed at one point in early S2, and am down to 10.7 now. With all the extra damage/burst flying around, is dipping any lower really sensible?

 

Karnical

Personally, I think gemming for +hit won't be as effective as going for AP. Sure, having +hit is good but it has diminishing returns, unlike AP. 5% from the combat tree, 2.28% (36 hit rating) from S3 gear, and 1.65% (16 from head enchant, 10 from surefooted) gives a total of 8.93% +hit. This is more than enough for PVP, imo.

 

Depry

I'm certainly going to be gemming purely ap/crit (20ap/16apx3/4crit8apx2/10ap4hit/10ap5crit). I feel 10k+hp is enough, and with current full S2 gear i'm at 10404hp/397res with the stam/stun meta + 3x6stam8ap gems, and no stamina enchants.

With season3 gear i'll be at 10804hp/410res with absolutely no stamina enchants/gems, so no, I don't think gemming stamina is really necessary, unless you want a meta gem that has a blue gem req.

I'm going for 12crit/5%snare resist meta so that I can gem for more damage. The quicker I kill my opponent, the less chance he has of fighting back, or the more pressure i put on his healer to heal, so my priest can manaburn.

 

Halfdane

In the Stamina vs. AP debate...

What do you think about Vitality vs. Deadliness? If you consider 1 Stam = 1 Agility = 2 AP, then Vitality >> Deadliness [at almost any level of gear].

If you feel that Deadliness is better than Vitality, how do you rate a point of AP vs. a point of stamina or agility to justify this?

 

Trazhenko

Well, you're comparing offensive benefits of Deadliness to the defensive benefits of Vitality, which is shaky ground, and hard to quantify mathematically, since you don't face opponents dealing steady DPS against your HP pool while you do steady DPS against theirs.

The people taking deadliness and gemming offensively are saying, "I have sufficient defenses to live through whatever gets thrown at me, so I might as well increase my offensive power".

If you had already had 30K HP, and never fought a match where you got below 50%, would you pick vitality over Deadliness? Probably not. It's an extreme example but you see the point. "If I'm not getting killed, why improve my defense?"

 

Halfdane

Clearly, people are comparing defense and offense [for example "5% snare resist, 24 AP, 10 hit rating > 5% stun, 27 Stamina"], and while I agree it's difficult to make a mathematical comparison between the two, it's a very pertinent question.

The AEP approach, 1 Agility = 1 Stamina = 2 AP model (ShadowPanther.net - World of Warcraft Rogue Info - Charts, Articles, Strategies & more! ) is one attempt at an approximation of the relative value of defense vs. offense. Many people on this forum feel that Deadliness > Vitality. In effect, they are voting with their talent specifications that the AEP formula is incorrect.

What I'm looking for is a different formula to describe how much one values resilience, stamina, AP, etc. for a AP/Prep Rogue. This would be useful for determining the relative value of two different pieces of gear. You don't have to have an exact mathematical reason, but a justification based on which piece of gear/gem/enchant you would take.

It could be that there are inflection points in your formula, such as

Total Worth = [Stamina to get you to 10K hp] * 1 + [Additional Stamina] * 0.5

 

Tiiki

After getting my honor/S3 gear today I definitely agree with the offense proponents. I forgot it was a problem, but I wont even have the blue gems to activates the defensive Metas. Going to go Surefooted/Runspeed+AP for now I think. The other advantage to this is that Surefooted is correct boot enchant for Mutilate, and I still really want to be able to justify that...

Putting AP and Noble Topaz in most slots too. Currently have 40 stam leg enchant on S3 pants and am regretting even that, as I'm on 435resi/11kHP or so at the moment.

So here's another question- what's better on gloves - 26 AP or 15 agi? 15 agi is more item budget, and scales with Kings (I 5v5 with a pally, but often WONT have kings (purged/freedom etc.). And gemming in general. Agi + Kings + deadliness scales amazingly... but how often will I have kings? :P

Or maybe we're getting slightly too caught up in the theorycrafting

So umm, lastly: Why the HELL does the S3 Mace look so FUCKING SHITE, excuse my language. It's so bad it's in another galaxy. It's like a private joke from Blizz to Arena Rogues

 

Grunge

While I agree with the offense part, I strongly disagree with the leg enchant part. 50ap/12crit is vastly inferior to 40stam/12agi. Agi is much better than pure crit (since it translates into dodge/crit/ap+scales with kings) Also if you consider that using the Nethercleft will allow you to substitute a item with a pve equivalent (this of course if you have access to that kind of gear).
Good examples are mother boots, anatheron belt, supremus neck, teron bracers, T6 chest. 1-2 pve items don't gimp your resilience much and can give a very nice boost in offensive stats.
I ran Paladin-SL/SL Lock-Me yesterday and we got to 1770 without much trouble before giving up since all we faced was 5-8 point teams.

From lower tier I find that the heroic badge reward bracers are pretty awesome compared to the Dragonhide bracers.

Oh for that matter. Rogues should check out [Vindicator's Leather Bracers] vs [Vindicator's Dragonhide Bracers]
3agi, 4stam, 4ap vs 9crit, 2 resilience. The Red socket in Dragonhide sealed the deal for me, as it allows 5agi/7sta gem over 5crit/7sta.

About hit. Get it. It's incredible for poison application, I tried running with 147 but found it uncomfortable as I usually hover around 190-205. (+Precision of course as I play 41/20/0).

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Cyn

delete me

 

Symbul

Yeah... those S3 maces are abominations. Goatse-esqe.

My Rogue's been pretty much inactive since I leveled her to 70. I've only collected the S2 Maces and S2 Gloves, with just over 1k arena points stashed atm. I honestly don't know why I bought the gloves since I had honor gloves already, but that's what I've got. I finally found a 2s team I like (Rogue+Priest) so I might stick with it this time. I'm 0/31/30. Hemo was my favorite spec by far in 2.0 and with the 2.3 buffs it's almost like being back in the glory days. No more CS->KS 100-0 stunlocks of course but hey, can't have it all.

I'm going to work on replacing my blue shit and getting my Resil up before I upgrade the weapons. Wearing X-52 Pilot's Leggings, with ilvl 115 blues in most arena slots just doesn't fly in Season 3. That, and it's a damn clownsuit. With the rushdown playstyle and this choice of partner I think going all out offense on gems is the way to go. Bright Rubies and Wicked Topaz most likely. Not 100% sold on Wicked Topaz but 4agi/4hit and Jagged Talasites look like the inferior choice. Planning on Surefooted+Swift Skyfire, the crit metas don't seem to sparkle that much in a high resilience environment using a build with neither Malice nor Lethality and neither does the Powerful Earthstorm.

 

Etre

I am seeking for an advice. I am playing mutilate now, 41/20/0. Now, in S3, what dagger build do you will be the best ?
I know that AR/hemo with maces is the flavor of the month, but I don't want to spend points on an outdated S2 mace until I get to 1850.

Mutilate may still be good for 5 vs 5 but I have problems with subtlety rogue teams in 2 vs 2. So, which other specs do you think will work in this case ? I am interested in exact talent distribution.

 

panny

I thought uncontrolled stuns weren't on diminishing returns?

Fix Spirit Wolves not responding to commands.
DK/Rogue

 

Tiiki

You thought wrong

They're just on different DR to controlled stuns.

Mace stuns (incl. from different sources) are still full/half/quarter/immune...

 

Sniddie

Now this struck me as quite odd, wouldn't it be better if you quickly used all three stuns from mace proc, so the DR could ge t reset again? And its not just about the mace proc, hit also gets you more quickly Wound application. If i was going 0/31/30 or similar i would most definatly go for 5agi/5hit gems.

http://siggen.xembler.org.nyud.net:8...stats1udbP.jpg

 

Tiiki

Like I said, it was a narrow and unrealistic analysis. From the perspective of mace stuns ONLY, I prefer them to come after KS is on cooldown. These days I often save KS, but the saving is less effective than with Combat, where it's much
more likely to land. Hit is good even is JUST for poison application, 0/31/30's weakest point. Worth throwing some 8 hit gems in the neck/chest/bracers though? I just don't know? The guy that mentioned having 100+ hit rating in PvP -- how??

So two other things - GREAT spot on those bracers, I already have the Rogue ones , but I think you're right that the druid ones are better, which is crazy considering how wasteful STR stat points are. Also good point about 50ap/12crit not scaling so well etc.

Unfortunately I don't have access to T6 loot to swap in a PvE piece. My best choice might be something like the Tabi 60 badge boots over the Vindicator Boots, were I to want to do that. My PvE gear is mostly that kind of T4/T5 level and that's probably my strongest new piece.

It does all come down to what is 'enough' survivability. Current 5v5 (just assembled, no games yet) is spriest/afflock/pally/me/elesham - so 4dps where I'm unlikely to be focused. Both the Afflock and Spriest are going for resi cap and are both over 450 already- I do expect much more damage to be flying around in S3... so for rogues, will the 10.5k HP / 400 resi mark be enough? I don't think anyone knows yet. And hell, you can always get Might over Kings if you think you're 'too' survivable

Decisions, decisions!


Side points- for Mutilate (did I ever mention I wish this was a viable choice?!):

1) What's the proc rate on the Stun Meta?
2) Barring that, is the best choice actually maybe: 5% snare meta, with surefooted + fleet for 15% speed, 20% snare resist. Sounds pretty hot to me...