[Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice - Page 17

Hildegard · 11/29/07, 8:10 AM

Why don't you use the 9Agility/Speed enchants on the boots instead the stamina one ?

Sniddie · 11/29/07, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

Like I said, it was a narrow and unrealistic analysis. From the perspective of mace stuns ONLY, I prefer them to come after KS is on cooldown. These days I often save KS, but the saving is less effective than with Combat, where it's much
more likely to land. Hit is good even is JUST for poison application, 0/31/30's weakest point. Worth throwing some 8 hit gems in the neck/chest/bracers though? I just don't know? The guy that mentioned having 100+ hit rating in PvP -- how??

How can having less hit make mace stun come after your kidney shot?

I think hes switching in some extra PvE gear for more hit, i know i swap in Gorefiend Bracers+Cloak when im not likely to be focused.

Tiiki · 11/29/07, 9:10 AM

Less hit = less chance of Mace Stun going DR earlier in your time on target. The assumption is that you use KS 'quite' soon after you open on a target. As I've repeatedly pointed out though, this isn't really a valid discussion point !

Vestalina · 11/29/07, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Sniddie

Now this struck me as quite odd, wouldn't it be better if you quickly used all three stuns from mace proc, so the DR could ge t reset again? And its not just about the mace proc, hit also gets you more quickly Wound application. If i was going 0/31/30 or similar i would most definatly go for 5agi/5hit gems.

Also, if you are AR/PREP mace rogue, a lot of your damage will be from white damage (assuming you have good SND management during arenas). I'm willing to bet that if you stack +hit, you will see a significant increase in your total damage in your arena matches.

If one thinks about it, as an AR/PREP mace rogue, +Hit affects EVERYTHING you do in a POSITIVE manner.

As for diminishing returns on mace stun, even if it is at it's lowest point in DR it still stuns your opponent acting as an effective interupt or a big nuisance in general. Mace stun only lasts a few seconds AT MOST.... DISRUPTING your opponent is still key and even with DR it still does it's job. I'd rather get a lot of mace stun procs all the time during the match to annoy the hell out of my target.

Simply put, DR on mace stuns is over-emphasized. I have never had a mace stun proc so much that my opponent was completely unnaffected by the proc from DR... and even if it did, a good rogue can time and adapt his kidney shots/gouges well in conjuction with mace stuns anyway.

As for the S3 bracers, I'd still go for the Leather ones over the Dragonhide ones. I'm putting a 4AGI/4HIT gem in it anyway. Crit doesn't matter to me as much as agility and raw AP. Plus, there's more stam on the Leather ones.

In the end, it all comes down to preference.

• LodeRunner · 11/29/07, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Vestalina

I have never had a mace stun proc so much that my opponent was completely unnaffected by the proc from DR

Really? I have that happen quite frequently. It's most obvious during my crazed Lusted/Blade FLurry/SnD/AR burst modes, but I'd say it happens every other arena match for me.

Tiiki · 11/29/07, 1:49 PM

Indeed, happens all the time. 4th proc is 'Immune' and doesn't interrupt anything...

Tiiki · 11/29/07, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by Vestalina

As for the S3 bracers, I'd still go for the Leather ones over the Dragonhide ones. I'm putting a 4AGI/4HIT gem in it anyway. Crit doesn't matter to me as much as agility and raw AP. Plus, there's more stam on the Leather ones.

Double contradiction :P

If you prefer AP, why not use a crit/AP gem?

If you prefer hit, why not use a +8 hit gem?

The biggest factor by far in making hit 'better', imo, is poisons, since that's the key weakness of the 0/31/30 spec. It has slow Wound stacking and slow maintenance. An abolish / totem comfortably keeps the target almost completely clean, often.

Thinking about it more, I'm thinking of just putting +8 hit in all yellow slots, at least. Hit means pushback, poisons and it's the most efficient sustained damage stat, even for 0/31/30 spec. The logic of AP stacking is that it affects specials and hit doesnt- but the 0/31/30 spec relies on maximising your time on target anyway. Some extra AP for those unload moments before your energy is drained (most of the time with this spec, since no Assass talents) seems worse than the hit pushing back and applying poisons.

The poison factor is the strongest factor in mutilate's defence, imo; a much faster main hand coupled with imp/vile. I'd almost be tempted to try a weapon switch OH with Wound for initial double wound mutilates- especially as that's my job on my 4dps team...

Vestalina · 11/29/07, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

Double contradiction :P

If you prefer AP, why not use an crit/AP gem?

If you prefer hit, why not use an +8 hit gem?

The biggest factor by far in making hit 'better', imo, is poisons, since that's the key weakness of the 0/31/30 spec. It has slow Wound stacking and slow maintenance. An abolish / totem comfortably keeps the target almost completely clean, often.

Thinking about it more, I'm thinking of just putting +8 hit in all yellow slots, at least. Hit means pushback, poisons and it's the most efficient sustained damage stat, even for 0/31/30 spec. The logic of AP stacking is that it affects specials and hit doesnt- but the 0/31/30 spec relies on maximising your time on target anyway. Some extra AP for those unload moments before your energy is drained (most of the time with this spec, since no Assass talents) seems worse than the hit pushing back and applying poisons.

The poison factor is the strongest factor in mutilate's defence, imo; a much faster main hand coupled with imp/vile. I'd almost be tempted to try a weapon switch OH with Wound for initial double wound mutilates- especially as that's my job on my 4dps team...

To answer your first two questions....

I value +AP first and foremost and +HIT after (assuming stam/res goals have been met).

I would not use a crit/ap gem because I could care less about +crit (to be blunt about it).
I would not use +hit only gems because I would rather use +4agi/+hit gems because rogues scale amazingly with agility.

Aiming for 160-170 hit rating is my goal before I start tossing +16 AP gems in the rest of my available slots.

As for mace DR, it's not that big of a deal compared to the gains:

1. More consistent poison application
2. More consistent white damage
3. More consistent specials/finishers (I hate missing that gamebreaking 5-pt kidney shot when all your other CC's are down and the lock gets his fear off to win the match)

If you are lucky enough to get mace proc 4 times in a row then you should have no problem beating the living daylights out of your target anyway on top of your kidney shots, vanish/cheapshots, gouges, etc.

As for +crit, I could care less at this point as an AR/PREP mace rogue.

Tower · 11/29/07, 3:18 PM

Setting Mutilate aside, 19/42 builds really only have room for 2 points in Imp or Vile Poisons, Vile being my preference, so it's not much different poison application versus an AR/prep build. You both have the same hit rate. Factor in Hemos 35 energy per instant + chance at application versus Imp SS at 40 energy + Combat Potency with gimped pvp hit rating levels and it's about equal overrall. You get the chance at a cheap shiv whenever you need it though.

I pretty much disagree with anyone gemming hit in an AR/prep build, save for 10ap 4hit gems. The strength of the build comes from avoiding CC and rushing your target down to 35% health as quickly as possible and you accomplish that by coordinating CC and stacking AP. I don't have to worry about how many Wound Applications are on my target when his partner just trinketed a fear, I blinded him and I just vanished into a CS into an AR. Pretty much the same for RMP, you burn when their healer is CS'd or Poly'd.

Macblade · 11/29/07, 3:30 PM

What are people putting points into on the sub side of Ar/Prep? Obviously, Hemo, Prep and Dirty Deeds are important. The first 5 in MoD and dirty tricks seems clear, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to what "filler" talents are better than others. That is, after the first 7 points what do you put stuff in to get up to Serrated Blades, Prep and Hemo?

I can find a build, but it would really be a lot more clear if someone could mention the pros and cons of Maxing out Camo, versus, Sleight of Hand, versus, iniative, versus setup.

Thanks

Vestalina · 11/29/07, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tower

I pretty much disagree with anyone gemming hit in an AR/prep build, save for 10ap 4hit gems. The strength of the build comes from avoiding CC and rushing your target down to 35% health as quickly as possible and you accomplish that by coordinating CC and stacking AP. I don't have to worry about how many Wound Applications are on my target when his partner just trinketed a fear, I blinded him and I just vanished into a CS into an AR. Pretty much the same for RMP, you burn when their healer is CS'd or Poly'd.

What happens when you run into an outlast/cc team or a warrior double healer team? You gimp yourself for longer fights where solid consistent damage is key (ie. white damage via snd). A perfect example of why some other classes feel that AR/PREP is weak after we run out of CD's. Outlast teams know AR/PREP rogues lose some utility after both AR's and evasions have been blown and they WANT you to blow your CD's so they slowly beat you to death afterwards.

With better hit, at least I know I'll still have a steady stream of consistent damage even after my CD's have been blown.

As for the question about how to spec AR/PREP, deadliness is a must. The filler points are up to your playstyle.

Tower · 11/29/07, 3:55 PM

This is how I'd spend my 30 in Sub.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Sleight of Hand is junk, it's only reduces the chance you are crit by melee and range only, not spells. It doesn't reduce total crit damage, and it doesn't reduce non-crit damage. It's spending 2 talent points for a small amount of uber gimped resilience. I'd rather get 4/5 of Camo for the initial Sap against a mounted target, and for the 2 vanishes you are likely to use during an arena match, sometimes when trying to lock down a druid or another rogue. Ghostly Strike is up to you, I personally love it against warriors. Some bypass it and max out Camo, I like my 5/5 in Lightning Reflexes + Evasion + Ghostly Strike. Initiative is great, once again for the 2 vanish into openers you'll likely be doing midfight, that are often game winners.

At first I was an advocate of Setup, but through a lot of testing in BGs and arena I just find it to be crap, especially compared to Elusiveness. Sure, you don't get 2 blinds in 2v2, but 3v3 and 5v5 you are sure to get 2 in before the battle is over. I thought it would help me be more offensive, but it's really marginal what it does.

Tower · 11/29/07, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Vestalina

What happens when you run into an outlast/cc team or a warrior double healer team? You gimp yourself for longer fights where solid consistent damage is key (ie. white damage via snd). A perfect example of why some other classes feel that AR/PREP is weak after we run out of CD's. Outlast teams know AR/PREP rogues lose some utility after both AR's and evasions have been blown and they WANT you to blow your CD's so they slowly beat you to death afterwards.

With better hit, at least I know I'll still have a steady stream of consistent damage even after my CD's have been blown.

As for the question about how to spec AR/PREP, deadliness is a must. The filler points are up to your playstyle.

Wait, how does +hit all of a sudden give you more steady stream of consistent damage over AP? It gives you a slight edge on poison application and even slighter on the mace stuns, and does jack shit for your specials (assuming you've max'd your hit for pvp like you should). You also have +10% AP, leaning further in favor of AP stacking.

An AR/prep rogue with stacked AP and a AR/prep rogue with stacked AP and hit are going to stay in melee range the same amount of time given the same circumstances. If you're sitting around waiting for white damage to apply your offhand Crippling Poison before your target escapes, you're in for some harsh learning experiences. You shiv it on like any other rogues. Stronger instants is why Hemo is devastating, you get off more instants in shorter amounts of time, before you are re-CC'd/rooted and your energy ticks back up and your white damage is useless.

More AP makes your AR's stronger, +hit does not.
More AP makes your Hemos hit harder, +hit does not.
More AP even makes your shiv stronger, +hit does not.

Vestalina · 11/29/07, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tower

Wait, how does +hit all of a sudden give you more steady stream of consistent damage over AP?

More AP makes your AR's stronger, +hit does not.
More AP makes your Hemos hit harder, +hit does not.
More AP even makes your shiv stronger, +hit does not.

Um.... last time I checked, missing less = more damage.

It gives you steady stream of consistent damage over AP because YOU MISS LESS, not because you hit harder. I'd rather do a little bit less damage but still successfully hit my target.

You can have a million attack power and miss your target. Your damage = 0.

White damage is more important than you think.
Poison application is more important than you think.

What happens when you don't have AR up? You can't spam hemo. You talk as if you have infinite energy.

Last time I checked, shiv isn't used as a main offensive ability. It's used to apply crippling poisons to your target, not to DPS.... I mean of course if you're using shiv as your primary attack which I wouldn't put past you.

Tower · 11/29/07, 4:56 PM

Wow, you turn to flames fast when someone disagrees with you. You're still avoiding my arguments against yours, however

For white damage solely – given equal proportions, missing less and hitting harder/missing more can be equal damage over time, that was my point. However +hit does not help your Hemo's hit harder once you're PvP hit capped (which is easy). That little talent, Dirty Deeds, which was buffed enormously is a key reason to AR/prep's success, and +hit has no benefit at all to it.

You can have a million attack power and miss your target. Your damage = 0.

Your absolute comparison is complete horse shit, you should know that. The only valid example to start from is one that assumes you have a full set of pvp gear along with precision and deadliness And with a base miss chance of 24%, your example is even worse.

Attempt to falsely discount and insult me all you want, shiv is one of the most important offensive abilities we have, and is another ability that +hit does jack shit for while AP does benefit. With no Master Poisoner or poison talents, I've had to shiv twice in a row after a Cheap Shot a few times when I get that initial "Resists Crippling Poison".

Pardon me as I stack AP and shiv my way to Gladiator in 2v2 and 3v3.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Spoony · 11/30/07, 3:16 AM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

Vestalina:

I don't necessarily agree- Mace Stuns are on DR, the quicker you 'use them up', the less control you have later AND the more chance you overlap one in a CS or KS (totally wasted). From a pure Mace Stun perspective, you actually want to MINIMISE hit. Sounds crazy, but my logic is that I'd rather get a big CS/KS on open, with no wasted Mace Procs (or a nice one to link the two) but then that further Mace Procs come later, whilst KS is on cooldown... I'm only offering a narrow analysis (of course hit is great), but so were you

4agi/4hit is also quite bad because you lose on deadliness.

2 of those = 8AP -> 9AP, 8 hit with deadliness.
2 x 16 ap red gems = 32 AP -> 35AP

Then again, AP gets nothing from Kings, so maybe 8 agi is best if you're in a team with a Paladin... (I am, but I'm still planning on socketing 2 x 16 AP in chest).

The 10 ap / 4 hit epic gem is also awesome.

Also, I'm not sure any PvP rogue is taking WepEx... are they?

I'm slowly being convinced on this meta/boots enchant... maybe. I'm suprised people are really gemming EVERY slot for damage though. I was planning on Mystic Dawnstones or Steady Talasite for the neck and chest yellow slots? Are you all just socketing crit/hit in those?

I had 11.2k unbuffed at one point in early S2, and am down to 10.7 now. With all the extra damage/burst flying around, is dipping any lower really sensible?

I would have to disagree with you here about aiming for less hit. There's not much you can do against the RNG method; losing hit might do as what you suggested, but it'd also sometimes get off that yellow miss when you really want that kidney shot to land. I don't think most rogues would risk that.

Both the good and bad parts of mace spec is the random nature of it.

Tiiki · 11/30/07, 6:14 AM

I never actually suggested losing hit! It was just a narrow supposition for the sake of argument as I've made clear a couple of times

Also I've been persuaded and un-persuaded about hit a few times on this very page!

Finally, we can of course take it as a given that everyone will have enough hit to never miss specials. With S3 and precision it's impossible not to, in fact.

Tower · 11/30/07, 12:16 PM

Hemorrhage weapon damage reduced from 125% to 110%, but the damage debuff has been increased.

Hope this doesn't go through, hurr, unless the damage debuff is like doubled.

Melnor · 11/30/07, 12:17 PM

I think you really have to look at how much of your mace stuns are attributed to your offhand in your pvp gear. Let's for example say that you don't have any +hit gear outside of Precision. That gives your off-hand a 76% chance to proc a 5% chance stun ability. So that means that any off hand swing has a base 3.8% chance to proc a mace stun. Now lets say you had enough hit to cover the DW penalty, that means your off hand has only gained a 1.2% chance to proc a mace stun, however has gained a significant amount of damage contribution since now all of your hits will land.

My point is that, it's the rogue spamming their main hand instants that's causing mace stun DR, not off hand procs. I am not going to try to gem for hit but at the same time I'm not going to swap out a piece of gear that has hit on it.

• Adoriele · 11/30/07, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tower

Hope this doesn't go through, hurr, unless the damage debuff is like doubled.

My guess is that Blizz realized that the original change made Ghostly Strike almost completely worthless, and so they're making Hemo a less powerful strike on its own but compensating by increasing the debuff.

Looks like I'm respeccing again...

Tiiki · 11/30/07, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Tower

Hope this doesn't go through, hurr, unless the damage debuff is like doubled.

Ouch ouch ouch.

I almost hope they nerf it so that I can spec something else though. I don't like it as a spec, at all... I just appreciate its necessity.

OT: Ooh, massive lifebloom raiding nerf too.

Shadowstep now awards 1 combo point.

In other news, you still can't get Shadowstep and Mace Spec

Tiiki · 11/30/07, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

My guess is that Blizz realized that the original change made Ghostly Strike almost completely worthless, and so they're making Hemo a less powerful strike on its own but compensating by increasing the debuff.

Looks like I'm respeccing again...

Au contraire - Ghostly Strike became a very good utility 1 talent point skill. I hated that you needed to use it on cooldown before to do max DPS. It makes much more sense as an equally damage utility skill. 15% dodge is pretty awesome for PvP vs warriors/rogues.

Tower · 11/30/07, 2:56 PM

Ghostly Strike is awesome, I 1v2'd an out of mana dwarf priest and felguard lock in 3v3 with it.

Very useful if a rogue is focusing you and you need heals, clos to remove those wounds + ghostly. Go go rogue defensive stance!

Neeklus · 12/01/07, 4:17 AM

So will we be going back to spamming SS now that hemo is being nerfed?

One other quick "noob" question: I've noticed a few rogues in arena literally running circles around players. Is this just superior skill matched with decent key bindings (because I can't do it as a mouse masher) or some kind of movement related addon?

Nannou · 12/01/07, 4:45 AM

If you define controlling your character as skill, then yes.