Morph

Sorry Melnor, you're quite right. 5% (79 or 80 + hit) is the target (I read 7% somewhere else in these forums and it was corrected later in that thread).

Nice gear Loderunner. I interpreted your 'full PvP gear' as S3 (a bit presumptious of me - I'm still in S1 and no Arena points on my rogue ).

S3 has three pieces with +12 hit each (Chest, Legs, Helm)

So :-
S3 = 36
Weaps = 8x2 = 16 (S3 Weapons have less hit than S1/2)
Glyph of Ferocity = 16
Surefooted = 10
Total = 78

 

Andread

I'm wondering about weapon enchants for ar/prep. Being based around two 15s periods of high damage it seems that proc-based enchants might not fit well with this build. At 1PPM there is a chance mongoose never procs during the 30s of AR. If it does, it might proc late into the second AR (thus providing less than 15s of benefit) or late into the first if the AR aren't back-to-back.

For consistency and to front-load damage as much as possible, it seems that +20 agil or +7 dmg might be a better fit for ar/prep. Any thoughts on this?

 

• LodeRunner

No, Mongoose is really the way to go. PPM rates are really really rough guidelines for determining how often the effect will be up, mostly because there are so many modifying factors. The PPM flat rate is based solely off autoattacks. The usage of specials and haste, like Slice and Dice, greatly increase the chance for the Mongoose buff to be applied. It's up pretty often, and especially when you have AR going, doubling your specials rate along with Blade Flurry increasing attack rate, yadda yadda yadda

 

Dorque

Is that with or without Precision, Morph?

 

Morph

That's without Precision. If you have Precision you are already set for yellow attacks. Any extra hit only effects white swings in PvP.

 

Trazhenko

That depends if you want to never miss frost mages. 5% from gear (no precision) is enough if your target doesn't have any "reduces chance to be hit" talents, but frost mages have an extra 5% to be missed from talents, so you need 5% on gear PLUS 5% from precision to not miss a special on a mage with that talent.

 

Morph

Aye. true. Are there any classes other than mages with - hit from melee ?

 

Halfdane

Post 2.32 changes...

Could it be that Backstab would outperform Hemo for heavy Subtlety builds?

Here are my (extremely simplified) calculations...

Ignoring criticals (which favor Backstab with Improved Backstab), and the hemo debuff (which surely favors Hemo, but the exact effect in PvP is difficult to calculate)


With my crappy gear
Backstab/Energy = ((175.5 + 108.4 * 1.7) * 1.5 + 255) * 1.3 /60 = 17.22
Mace Hemo/Energy = ((175.5 + 108.4 * 2.4) * 1.2/35 = 14.93

With S3 weapon, 1900 AP
Backstab/Energy = ((185.5 + 135.7 * 1.7) * 1.5 + 255) * 1.3 /60 = 19.05
Mace Hemo/Energy = ((185.5 + 135.7 * 2.4) * 1.2/35 = 17.53

I welcome more experienced theory-crafters commenting on this, preferably before Tuesday when I purchase either a dagger or a mace.

I realize that Backstab has positional requirements, but also considering the possibility of Ambush, if you decide to use Shadowstep, should you use a Mace or a Dagger?

 

telcontar

Druids' Insect Swarm - 2% decreased chance to hit when it's on you.

 

Perilous

I welcome these changes. Both as a rogue and as a druid, pally, mage, warlock. Rogues needed something, but what they did with hemo allowed for simply too strong of a build that even idiots can succeed with if they can find their cooldowns fast enough.

I think rogues have 3 solid builds now. Want mace stuns, go balls deep combat. Want burst, go mutilate. Want mobility and some neat tricks, go subtlety.

Rogues quite simply felt too strong since 2.3. I am glad they are not completely destroying them but toning them down a touch and opening up some more viable and frankly enjoyable play styles. I began to dread my 3v3 matches because AR prep is torture to play. I played shadowstep in 5s and have a blast.

 

Morph

With the newly announced 2.3.2 changes this morning it is certainly improved. I have thought for a while that it would be worth carrying a decent Mainhand dagger for finishing wounded targets with Step > Ambush > Backstab. A weapon switch macro would work really well. As far as talents are concerned, I would probably want to take Opportunity and Inp Backstab though.

My problem with the backstab build in general, other than the positional one, is that Combo Point generation per energy is terrible after using Prem. It isn't about the small difference in damage from the special itself.

Prem > Ambush (60E)> Backstab(60E) may get you to your 5 CPs if Initiative procs, but you will have to wait at least one more tick to apply your finisher or, worse, a Shiv then finisher and then have to start building CPs again. If you get 5 Backstabs in (300E !) the target would most likely be dead anyway and the only other way is to Hemo with daggers (yuck) or Shiv giving up any damage advantage gained which defeats the object of speccing into Backstab.

On a target with 100% health Hemo Swords/Maces/Fists with a Prem > Garrote opener (30E) > Shiv (35E) > Hemo (35E) > Rupture/KS (25E) all fit into a 110E bar plus one energy tick. I think this sequence will do more damage to a heavily armored target than the Ambush opener due to damage mitigation. The alternative is, if Initiative procs and you're still behind the target you could replace the Shiv with a Backstab but I think it's essential to get the Shiv cripple on early.

They have buffed my newly beloved Shadowstep build quite a bit, but there will be a lot of crying from the AR/Prep Arena boys and girls.


For reference the new PTR changes are :-

Ambush: The damage multiplier on this ability has been increased from 250% to 275%.
Hemorrhage: This ability now correctly does additional damage when its debuff has already been applied.
Preparation now resets the cooldown of Shadowstep and no longer resets the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush.
Shadowstep now adds a 3 second, 70% movement speed increase.
Sinister Calling now also increases the percentage damage bonus of Hemorrhage and Backstab by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Further details can be found at MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies

 

Morph

You also used the same average damage number for both dagger and Sword/Fist/Mace.

Also, your profile shows Ced's Carver as a MH dagger. Have replaced with S1 weapons.


With S1 weapons 1518 AP
Backstab/Energy = ((164 + 108.4 * 1.7) * 1.5 + 255) * 1.3 /60 = 16.84
Mace Hemo/Energy = ((237 + 108.4 * 2.4) * 1.2/35 = 17.04

With S3 weapon, 1900 AP
Backstab/Energy = ((185.5 + 135.7 * 1.7) * 1.5 + 255) * 1.3 /60 = 19.05
Mace Hemo/Energy = ((268 + 135.7 * 2.4) * 1.2/35 = 20.35

 

Tiiki

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've multiplied by 1.5 for Backstab, when, with the new Sinister calling buff, it will be 1.6.

You've correctly upped Hemo to 1.2 from 1.1, though I'd be tempted to add in the Hemo debuff damage too, since it will be making use of it after 2.3.2. In fact, you do need to add the extra backstab crit rate and a typical (400 resi) target to get truly useful numbers, IMO.

And what about Opportunity?

That's the problem with daggers. A proper full dagger build needs 3/3 imp BS, 3/3 imp Ambush and 5/5 opportunity to be viable (and to make use of all the new buffs) (and that's ignoring 3/3 MoS for bigger ambushes (waste of points for arena, really?)) -- it's just too many. The 'genius' of Mutilate was that it was a dagger spec that required one talent point to be viable.

Vanish / Premed / Step / Ambush / Eviscerate with Imp Ambush, MoS, Dirty Deeds, etc. on a target below 35% IS HUGE burst, but you use 3 cooldowns, it's mitigated by armor and you use a huge number of talents to achieve it. I just don't think it's quite there yet.

Imp BS and Imp Ambush should be combined for a total of 1 talent point (a la Hemo) IMO. Why does a crit-reliant (so inherently not great in PvP), positional spec need 8-15 talent points and Hemo needs just one?

Lastly, to revisit something I touched on before that just got a whole lot more relevant: Enveloping Shadows or Cheat Death? I have the latter but still think I will switch to the former. Combined with Heightened Senses (and Surefooted?) it's greatly superior to Cheat Death if you're not being focused...

 

berzerked

I'm really upset over the changes to ar/prep At the same time I'm having a blast trying to figure out new specs.

>> ShadowStep [20/0/41] <<
This is what I got for a Shs spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I chose to go assassination over combat, because I prefer the better poison application and I think all the +cp gen talents and crit/crit dmg talens are just much better for an shs build. What would you really get out of 20points in combat? dual weild.. and imp sprint. The biggest problem I have with ShS builds is that you really have no burst, unless you go daggers and try the whole shs->ambush->bs or something to that effect, and even then I still don't like it.

>> AR/CB [28/33/0] <<
Another build that might be worth playing with is the ar/cb build, I never see anybody use it, when I re-activated my account after a 2.8year leave I tried combat because everybody praised it.. I ended up dropping the 41pt combat build and did the following: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft It has awesome burst, great cp-gen and with the buff to aggression it might be worth trying again. The ar/cb build I linked is not final, but you get the raw idea.

>> Burst Muti [51/2/7] <<
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - I got this idea from XOM (EU). Baisically you give up the 20pt combat goodies which yeild sustained dmg (DW) and Imp Sprint, and instead gain amazing poison app and awesome yellow dmg. At least thats how I see it. At the moment I play 41/20 mutilate spec, since I have so much cp I often use snd which is great, but what I plan on doing with this spec is using those cp on expose armor instead of snd. Keeping expose armor up + all of the ignore armor items creates greaty synergy imo and should really help during bursts.

 

Safid

Is Shadowstep going to have enough damage to actually hurt anyone, though? AR/Prep was only dangerous for two 15s periods. After that your ability to do much more than autoattack was severely limited. I don't see Shadowstep letting you kill anyone until the other team is out of mana, but without combat's sustained damage talents it doesn't seem like any pressure is going to be put on enemy healers.

I'd like to go daggers as well simply because I have better daggers than I do maces but the energy cost seems enormously prohibitive for what you would get. Shadowstep/Hemo seems slightly better in that you at least get some CP generation to help with your lack of sustained DPS.

 

Morph

Yes. Have moved it from the end modifier (Opportunity + Sinister Calling was 1.3 now just 1.2 from Opportunity) to the Backstab Modifier as suggested by the tooltip (1.5 +0.1)

With S1 weapons 1518 AP
Backstab/Energy = ((164 + 108.4 * 1.7) * 1.6 + 255) * 1.2 /60 = 16.25
Mace Hemo/Energy = ((237 + 108.4 * 2.4) * 1.2/35 = 17.04

With S3 weapon, 1900 AP
Backstab/Energy = ((185.5 + 135.7 * 1.7) * 1.6 + 255) * 1.2 /60 = 18.42
Mace Hemo/Energy = ((268 + 135.7 * 2.4) * 1.2/35 = 20.35

Indeed a big buff for Hemo spam now it will be able to use it's own charges. Hemo is a bit wekaer for the first and stronger for the subsequent damage providing the buff hasn't been used/expired. Remove charge limit please Blizz to help the PvEers

I sort of agree with this, but the excitement here is that there is a viable daggers/Hemo talent build using weapon swapping. I wouldn't change my bleed opening on most targets, only using the Premed>Ambush>BS>Evisc on low health targets. To do this I would ideally find room for Opportunity (5 pts), Imp Ambush (3 pts) and Imp BS (3 pts). This is tricky but not impossible to do, as they are all low down in the trees that I take anyway.

Remember I do all PvP not just Arenas. I am more likely to take just the Imp Ambush for the opportunistic kills on low health targets using SStep > Prem/Ambush Macro > spam Weapon swap/Shiv Macro > Eviscerate.
Not sure whether weapon swapping will start a Global Cooldown or not though, not tried it, but the idea is that you can Shiv with your equipped Offhand while the Cooldown on the mainhand runs through before Eviscerating. Won't effect your Eviscerate, I know, but will mean you have something useful in your Mainhand if you havn't quite finished your target.

The new Arena thinking seems to be, rather than rushing down the Focus Fire target from the start as AR/Prep, the ShS rogue will keep another target busy (sap one stun one sort of thing) while the other dps takes the FF target to below 50%. The rogue then steps and finishes the FF target. Sounds like it needs massive energy conservation to me, but that's the theory. I also think that the FF Target will have too much opportunity to escape. That was the great thing about Mace Stuns and crippling in Arena. The ShS rogue relies on surprise. It's why I like the subtlety tree. More finesse, less brutality.

I already commented on this, but if you feel you are not getting targeted in Arenas at all then you're probably right.

 

Tiiki

Weapon swapping does indeed incur a GCD. I already use it a lot to shiv Mind Numb/Crippling alternately when I need to.

Rogues don't lose a WHOLE lot with spending GCDs though, since your still recharging energy anyway.

I never use the bleed opener you describe, but maybe I should? For me, the key in Arena at the start is getting Wound Poison on and staying there as best as possible. So I almost always CS->SnD->Troll Beserking and try to stick to them as much as I can...

 

Tiiki

Broadly agree with your ShS spec- though isn't Vile > Imp? I have 4/5 Vile atm.

Re: someone mentioning ShS lack of sustained- that may be true compared to the likes of Combat or Mutilate, but it's still better sustained than AR/Prep. Top 11 Assass are amazing sustained damage talents and 15% agi on top of 10% AP is also totally great. You DO have no burst and I definitely miss AR and BF, but I find my general damage output pretty decent. You also get MANY more CPs/spare energy compared to AR/Prep - it's the lack of 11 Assass talents that makes AR/Prep so dull to play, in fact.

 

Avair

Right now, the best 2v2 set up for a rogue is probably rogue/disc priest. And our worst match up is arguably warrior/druid. It sounds to me like the changes to ShadowStep will make it much easier to actually catch druids, which would be a huge improvement for that match up.

 

iKon85

After AR / Prep was assassinated, I felt quite sorry ;-). Anyway life goes on, and when 2.3.2. goes live, i'll spec 20/0/41 which will be - from my point of view - more or less a arena standard built.

I thought of something like that:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Well, I guess that some talentpoints can be (and will be spent different).

e.g.:

Sleight of Hand: I don't know how important or mighty soh is, but it is just some sort of resilence.
Master of Sublety: Well, with MoS skilled (maybe 3 points) it'll give us lot of burstdmg, but to be honest I don't know, whether the points are it worth, or not.

Any Ideas? ;-)

So far
iKon

P.S.: I'm sorry for my english, but honestly I didn't wrote an english text for about 2 years :P

 

dreadloc

I don't think I would take Remorseless Attacks over Murder, I am also a fan of Heightened Senses, but I am also considering going 20/0/41. I will miss Mace Spec, Precision (I don' have 80 hit gear so will need to re-gem), Riposte, Dual Wield etc., but getting my 11+ points in the Assasination tree is a major happy dance for me. I really felt the loss of that tree when running 0/31/30.

I will miss my AR/Prep spec, it just feels very solid at the moment, but am looking forward to hitting the PTR with a premade rogue and trying a few specs out.

I am refreshing this page constantly and am very interested in everyones thoughts on the 'next big spec'. I just hope we don't end up back at 17/44 as I find that spec as dull as gravy to play.

 

• LodeRunner

Yeah, loss of Mace spec will be rough and I'm basically going to have to regem everything as agility/hit gems because I'm most likely going 20/0/41 as well. Even then that's... 24gi/24 hit rating. I wonder if that's even enough or if I'll have to use pure 8 hit rating gems.

 

dreadloc

I am sadly going to have to use 8Hit gems in 3 slots to make up my hit rating. These will replace 8 Crit gems though (I just got cheap gems at the time) so thanks to Sinister calling my cri will still go up and my hit will go up at the same time. However the loss of precision is a hard one with my gear (Season 1 stuff, I resurrected my pre-tbc rogue when arenas season 1 gear hit the vendors)

Getting 80 Hit Rating with pvp gear is harsh without access to season 3.

 

Morph

The burst isn't as powerful as Mutilate it must be said, but when modeling the different damage outputs don't forget to factor in the AP change for deep subtlety. It hits much harder than many expect (me included before I tried it). I get an extra 220 AP from the extra Agility and Deadliness which gives an extra 40 damage to each mainhand hit and 48 to each Hemo (2.3.2) and we get 1.7 Hemos to each Mutilate energy wise. Combo point generation is similar if not better with Premed. Over 5 seconds Mutilate wins on damage for sure with CB. After that I expect Hemo will catch up.

What is standard opening sequence for Mutilate ? Ambush or CS > Shiv > Mutilate > KS or CB Eviscerate ? Or do you save CB for a Mutilate to get 4 CPs ?

 

Tower

I'm honestly looking at this build.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

You get Shadowstep, Imp Sprint, retain your hit rating, and gain the ability to swap between Hemo and daggers depending on the situation.

You lose the ability to gain Ruth/Relentless, but your CP gain is just the same as AR/prep when you didn't have AR up, but you can immediately swap to a Shadowstep > Backstab on a low target.