Also, it seems (especially with Eyonix's questionable description and explanation of the Hemo nerf) that Blizzard is trying very hard to get rogues to spec full 41's in whatever tree they're most comfortable with. AR/Prep nerf is a huge hit to hybrid play which is mind boggling given that Warriors spec into Arms just far enough to get MS but apparently that's working as intended.
You're going to have to remember that a Warrior's 31 point talent entirely defines how the Warrior will be played; they're very dynamic. Rogue 31 and 41 point talents enhance the overall Rogue playstyle, but none of the Rogue 31 points entirely define your playstyle. Two of the 41 point talents do that to an extent: Mutilate and Shadowstep.
You, as a rogue, could survive deep in any tree if you didn't take the 31 point talent. A Warrior could not, and even considering skipping a 31 pointer on a Warrior is pretty much unthinkable.
You're going to have to remember that a Warrior's 31 point talent entirely defines how the Warrior will be played; they're very dynamic. Rogue 31 and 41 point talents enhance the overall Rogue playstyle, but none of the Rogue 31 points entirely define your playstyle. Two of the 41 point talents do that to an extent: Mutilate and Shadowstep.
You, as a rogue, could survive deep in any tree if you didn't take the 31 point talent. A Warrior could not, and even considering skipping a 31 pointer on a Warrior is pretty much unthinkable.
I wasn't trying to bash Warriors, and I do realize that the Death Wish change wasn't nearly as beneficial as changing Mace spec to Sub would be for Rogues. I just wanted to mention that the precedent is there for changing a talent to a different tree for reasons relating to PVP builds and playstyle in general (even if they didn't accomplish something great for Warriors, it was their intention that's important in my opinion).
I believe Blizzard is trying to create a situation with Rogues like you describe the Warrior situation above, making a 41 point talent define our playstyle. You also mentioned that, but I think a small change like moving Mace Spec to Sub would cement the goal of enticing Rogues to spec Sub for serious PVP. Another difference is the fact that Warriors have two roles to fulfill, and trees divided based on those roles to a certain extent. Since Rogues only have one role, if the goal is to get us speccing into one primary tree for PVP then being flexible about our other 20 points is necessary. If a Sub Rogue had access to mace stuns it would open up more flexibility, for example if I knew I had mace stuns I'd feel more comfortable going something like 20/0/41 and losing Imp Sprint.
Since we're talking about subtlety talents, does anyone else feel like the major problem with the subtlety tree is that it's 21 and 31 point talents don't really do much anymore. Prep now resets evasion, vanish, sprint, shs, and CB (if you have it). This is great for a rogue being focus fired, and awesome for 1v1 dueling, but (with the exception of CB) doesn't help the damage. Premeditation was great when it was possible to stun-burst someone down, but combo point generation isn't really the issue anymore, damage is. I'd love to see these two talents addressed in a positive light (c'mon, let's not take MORE things off premed, it's a silly knee-jerk reaction).
Yea, I absolutely agree. I brought this up in the Combat/Hemo thread without thinking about it, but you're right on. They just keep putting duct tape on Prep and ignoring the fact that Premeditation is basically useless in all but the Premed-Ambush-CB-Eviscerate combo that a 30/0/31 dagger rogue loves.
Personally, I think the two should be swapped in the tree, and all the silly "except this" need to be removed. For 31+ points in Subtlety, I think giving a rogue the ability to double Blind or Cloak is perfectly feasible. It wouldn't compensate for the overall damage loss, but it would sure give the Subt rogue a utility-advantage that Mutilate or Combat specs wouldn't have.
And as far as I'm concerned, Premeditation could be passive. That or just make it so that all your openers and abilities that add CP add an additional one. Or it could even function like Master of Subtlety in that openers and abilities within 6 seconds of breaking Stealth generate an additional point. There are a ton of neat things that could be done, but 2 points, in Stealth, every two minutes for 31 talent points is on par with Lightwell.
On par with Lightwell, except of course that Lightwell gets buffed patch after patch (although it's still bad) whereas prep was really something once-upon-a-time.
What'd I'd actually like to see is prep stays at 21 points, premed is removed completely and replaced with shadowstep (which would actually not be a bad 31 point talent) and subtlety gets a strong damage-frontloading or anti-healing move as a 41 pointer. That way you have 2 options, (a) spec 31 into subtlety to gain survivability and better stealth or (b) take the second half of the tree as well to gain large increases to your base damage. This gives 3 distinct rogue trees as well as real choices.
You're going to have to remember that a Warrior's 31 point talent entirely defines how the Warrior will be played; they're very dynamic. Rogue 31 and 41 point talents enhance the overall Rogue playstyle, but none of the Rogue 31 points entirely define your playstyle. Two of the 41 point talents do that to an extent: Mutilate and Shadowstep.
You, as a rogue, could survive deep in any tree if you didn't take the 31 point talent. A Warrior could not, and even considering skipping a 31 pointer on a Warrior is pretty much unthinkable.
Honestly, wasn't that the direction Hemo was heading? It defined us as a PvP class for the first time since... when? I think you're overstating how MS effects how you play a warrior, you're a melee class no matter what tree you invest in, just like rogues. Prot was always the mirror tree for Subtelty when it came to PvP, IE gimpy, gimmicky and generally useless - but as a contrast, Sub was never useful in PvE while Prot is absolutely integral.
Before the expansion dropped, Fury was very competitive in PvP and redonkulous in PvE due to riduclous gear scaling with warriors, you still played like you would with MS, you rush in, debuff and use every whit and talent possible to keep your target from healing and in melee - just like Assassination, Combat and in recent patches, Subtlety has become for rogues.
Sure, one button uses a double dagger attack, one button transports us to a target for damage, one target launches a very strong 2 handed melee attack - they're all doing the same thing, but I don't see your differentiation in "playstyle" as an argument for MS or against Hemo.
I would just love for Blizzard to actually grow some balls and make Mortal Strike a 41 point arms talent, like they should've done when they moved talents around last patch. For some reason they did that for rogues, but our Mortal Strike got a hefty nerf - why not vice versa? I'm not sure anyone knows, considering how powerful every single player of World of Warcraft views warriors and warlocks (who've seen very minor tuning compared to the absolute blasting of rogue specs).
I like that idea Darlal. I doubt it will happen but I like it nontheless. As for premed/lolwell - crap will never shine, no matter how much you polish it.
Could it be that Backstab would outperform Hemo for heavy Subtlety builds?
Here are my (extremely simplified) calculations...
Ignoring criticals (which favor Backstab with Improved Backstab), and the hemo debuff (which surely favors Hemo, but the exact effect in PvP is difficult to calculate)
I welcome more experienced theory-crafters commenting on this, preferably before Tuesday when I purchase either a dagger or a mace.
I realize that Backstab has positional requirements, but also considering the possibility of Ambush, if you decide to use Shadowstep, should you use a Mace or a Dagger?
In 2.32, thought it was going from 1.25 weapon damage to 1.1 weapon damage? I must have missed reading about the change (I see someone mentioning that 1.2 is correct). Correcting for weapon damage for S3 mace.
The part you're missing for hemo is that you probably will use some of your charges. If you have no swing speed modifying attacks on (i.e., mongoose hasn't procced, SnD isn't up) and are wielding a 2.6 speed sword/mace/fist untalented MH and 1.5 OH, have 5% +hit gear, you will hit approximately 1.11 autoattacks + specials per second. It takes about 3.8 seconds between hemo swings (when you assume use of finishers), for about 4.23 attacks between hemos. You will therefore consume an average of 4 of your own hemo charges, so you need to add about 168 damage per hemo to your calculations. So that would add another 4.8/energy damage, definitely tipping the balance in favor of hemo. If mongoose procced on both hands and you had SnD up, you would deal 5.29 swings between hemo attacks and add an extra 1.2 damage per energy. The balance is even more tipped in favor of hemo on an arena team where there is another melee or a hunter dealing physical damage.
If you were heavy sub with a minor in combat to swords, you could expect to consume 1 additional charge between each attack for another 42 damage from hemo and 1.2 damage per energy. Not all that likely in a heavy sub build.
The part you're missing for hemo is that you probably will use some of your charges. If you have no swing speed modifying attacks on (i.e., mongoose hasn't procced, SnD isn't up) and are wielding a 2.6 speed sword/mace/fist untalented MH and 1.5 OH, have 5% +hit gear, you will hit approximately 1.11 autoattacks + specials per second. It takes about 3.8 seconds between hemo swings (when you assume use of finishers), for about 4.23 attacks between hemos. You will therefore consume an average of 4 of your own hemo charges, so you need to add about 168 damage per hemo to your calculations. So that would add another 4.8/energy damage, definitely tipping the balance in favor of hemo. If mongoose procced on both hands and you had SnD up, you would deal 5.29 swings between hemo attacks and add an extra 1.2 damage per energy. The balance is even more tipped in favor of hemo on an arena team where there is another melee or a hunter dealing physical damage.
Thank you for the Hemo debuff analysis.
So including improved backstab and hemo debuff against an opponent with 400 resilience, with S3 weapons
I could be missing something... is the hemo debuff multiplied by criticals or any other sort of multiplier? Also, my analysis assumes a x/0/40+ build for both maces and daggers, and thus no +5% to hit. Something like: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator
On par with Lightwell, except of course that Lightwell gets buffed patch after patch (although it's still bad) whereas prep was really something once-upon-a-time.
What'd I'd actually like to see is prep stays at 21 points, premed is removed completely and replaced with shadowstep (which would actually not be a bad 31 point talent) and subtlety gets a strong damage-frontloading or anti-healing move as a 41 pointer. That way you have 2 options, (a) spec 31 into subtlety to gain survivability and better stealth or (b) take the second half of the tree as well to gain large increases to your base damage. This gives 3 distinct rogue trees as well as real choices.
Novel idea, but I can already trump it with what people would be crying nerf about at level 80 (assuming there isn't a massive tree overhaul before WotLK):
Honestly, wasn't that the direction Hemo was heading? It defined us as a PvP class for the first time since... when? I think you're overstating how MS effects how you play a warrior, you're a melee class no matter what tree you invest in, just like rogues. Prot was always the mirror tree for Subtelty when it came to PvP, IE gimpy, gimmicky and generally useless - but as a contrast, Sub was never useful in PvE while Prot is absolutely integral.
Before the expansion dropped, Fury was blah blah blah
I would just love for Blizzard to actually grow some balls and make Mortal Strike a 41 point arms talent, like blah blah blah
Like it or not, the focal point of every Warrior talent tree is the 31 point talent. That's how they've decided to make it. Originally Mortal Strike was the only focal point, but they turned Bloodthirst and Shield Slam into instant attacks on 6 second timers so there's a certain familiarity in the feel between all 3 specs that really defines it as "Hey I'm playing a Warrior". They actively centralized those talents, and I don't see them undoing that anytime soon. Rogues start out with their bread and butter move, Sinister Strike. Maybe if your only innate attack was Shiv you could compare it. Assassination's 31 point could become Backstab, Combat's could become Sinister Strike, and Sub's could become Hemo. That would be a good comparison to Warrior talents.
As it stands right now there are flavors of all three talent trees that stand as viable in Arena play. Mutilate is very good in 5s. 17/44 Combat is not as strong, but it's "the PvE spec" and it can still be used in arena play unlike Warriors' Fury tree because you still have Wound Poison. They're trying to make Subtlety viable as well.
You HAVE to get MS if you want to PvP on a warrior competitively. Any serious Warrior spec will need at least 31 points in Arms, usually 33 because of Second Wind. Rogues, by comparison, can spec heavily into three potential trees and still be very competitive. I see that as a good thing. A Rogue can be pretty much specced anything and still be considered "a PvP class" as you note in the first line of your post. I guess maybe I just don't understand what you want. Any Rogue spec has a built-in Mortal Strike. It's called Wound Poison.
Do you think Blizzard might think this is viable: A full Backstab/Ambush/Master Of Subtlety (6 sec 10% dmg boost from stealth)/Opportunity/Shadowstep build... where the playstyle is:
Step+Ambush->(empty energy bar in the 6 seconds on backstabs)... run away, re-stealth...
Step in again...
A kinda of very bursty daggers build that does almost only yellow damage.
Of course, it can't work, and of course the main problem is wound poison (and um, minimal white damage !). But I'm just wondering if that style of play is what was envisaged when they rebuilt Subtlety originally (in 2.1 was it?). They're still buffing Backstab, and it just got viable (as a PvP attack) because the S3 gear has SO much crit... but really, it's all a red herring isn't it- that build just can't work in the current PvP game for many many reasons.
It would totally destroy in battlegrounds though. If only they weren't deathly dull by now!
Do you think Blizzard might think this is viable: A full Backstab/Ambush/Master Of Subtlety (6 sec 10% dmg boost from stealth)/Opportunity/Shadowstep build... where the playstyle is:
Step+Ambush->(empty energy bar in the 6 seconds on backstabs)... run away, re-stealth...
Step in again...
A kinda of very bursty daggers build that does almost only yellow damage.
Of course, it can't work, and of course the main problem is wound poison (and um, minimal white damage !). But I'm just wondering if that style of play is what was envisaged when they rebuilt Subtlety originally (in 2.1 was it?). They're still buffing Backstab, and it just got viable (as a PvP attack) because the S3 gear has SO much crit... but really, it's all a red herring really isn't it- that build just can't work in the current PvP game for many many reasons.
It would totally destroy in battlegrounds though. If only they weren't deathly dull by now!
Honestly, that's exactly how I play AV large scale battles now. Some poor chap wanders into the neutral zone, I wait until he's down to half health, Shadowstep, Ambush, Backstab, possibly finisher, run back to my side and out of LOS, re-stealth, repeat. Even with my shoddy gear, I have seen 4K+ ambushes.
Shadowstep still seems gimped to me, and always will, because it doesn't offer a snare, root, or stun on your target. That seems to mean that unless I want to settle for a short duration KS, I will have to use Shiv as my first attack after the ShS meaning the 20% damage bonus is wasted. Do you guys see that as being an issue? Maybe I'm not giving enough weight to the fact that you might already have CP's on the target and you could ShS --> 5 pt KS, or Deadly Throw and then Shadowstep. There could be a simple fix here mechanics-wise, just prevent Shiv from eating the damage buff.
Just thought I would point out that, currently, shiv does not eat the 20% shs buff. Unless something is different on the current PTR, I'd hope it stays this way.
The problem I'm running into with this change is the fact that Blizz seems to be giving us one or the other...mobility or damage. ShS still hasn't convinced me that the gained mobility will be worth anything, simply because you gain mobility, but do roughly the same damage as you would after you've exhausted double AR in the AR/prep build. The 20% bonus damage applies to a single attack every 30 seconds. It's current iteration also doesn't clear snares.
So basically, until it can be tested/tweaked, ShS doesn't seem to offer much of anything. My current thought is something of an 11(13)/41/9(7). Before 2.3 I played basically a standard combat build (wouldn't respec between raids and pvp). For PvP I see the loss of lethality/vile as appropriate to gain range on your sap, and MoD. The last two points are a toss up for me, but the two places I can currently see them are either in Imp EA (helps your burst...drop an Imp EA for 3kish armor pen, pop AR/BF, then throw a 5 pt kidney when ready could be devastating assuming you don't get CC'd) or camo, though I'm not sure 2 pts camo will really make that much of a difference.
I'd love to see MoD/Camo merged in the top part of Sub. That would make the decision much easier. Sadly, this build still suffers the same thing heavy combat builds have always suffered, and that's a distinct lack of mobility.
11/26/24 could also work. It would take lots of the sustained damage, but has still double Evasion, Impr. Sprint and Vanish. So two more rootbreakers. If you don't take riposte, but slice and dice and Endurance the build has a great longlivety with four reduced cooldowns and preparation. Improved SnD, 30% more Damage with rupture, Relentless Strikes..
The only problem is that the build is lacking any real burst.
I also think, that ShS isn't viable. The missing rootbreaker means you probably miss a moving target if harmstring, CoEx or crippling poison is on, while mutilate will have serious mobility issues and no MoD, so no sap, but is probably now the strongest build, if not focussed.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
11/26/24 could also work. It would take lots of the sustained damage, but has still double Evasion, Impr. Sprint and Vanish. So two more rootbreakers. If you don't take riposte, but slice and dice and Endurance the build has a great longlivety with four reduced cooldowns and preparation. Improved SnD, 30% more Damage with rupture, Relentless Strikes..
The only problem is that the build is lacking any real burst.
I also think, that ShS isn't viable. The missing rootbreaker means you probably miss a moving target if harmstring, CoEx or crippling poison is on, while mutilate will have serious mobility issues and no MoD, so no sap, but is probably now the strongest build, if not focussed.
2.3.2 PTR Updates
Ambush: The damage multiplier on this ability has been increased from 250% to 275%.
Hemorrhage: This ability now correctly does additional damage when its debuff has already been applied.
Preparation now resets the cooldown of Shadowstep and no longer resets the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush. Shadowstep now adds a 3 second, 70% movement speed increase.
Sinister Calling now also increases the percentage damage bonus of Hemorrhage and Backstab by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Enno, the problem isn't the speed increase, it's that it doesn't break roots. Rooted is rooted, 70% faster or no.
True, but it would help against all the shit that's often on you alot of the time, like what the poster I replied to mentioned: hamstring, CoE, etc.
All that buff triest to solv is the fact that shadowstep is broken by a moving target.. with the buff you can catch up and shiv. So yes, breakign roots would be realy nice, but I doubt we'll ever see that.. blizz would think we're overpowered.
True, but it would help against all the shit that's often on you alot of the time, like what the poster I replied to mentioned: hamstring, CoE, etc.
All that buff triest to solv is the fact that shadowstep is broken by a moving target.. with the buff you can catch up and shiv. So yes, breakign roots would be realy nice, but I doubt we'll ever see that.. blizz would think we're overpowered.
Let's be honest. If you can't shed roots/snares there is no point to ShS.
If you ShS and have 3 sec of 20% increased mobilitiy maximum (assuming you have a hamstring on you against warriors), you still fall behind not only druids, but any class that can snare you. This isn't a mobility fix. It's a "stay in your place so you get raped" fix. The fact that AR is taken off of prep is a slap in the face of most rogues who have achieved an 1850 of higher rating in S3. While PMR might be a solid combo, even after the fix, it still does not justify the fact that this change severely gimps one class in not only the 2v2 bracket, but the 5v5 bracket (over which PvP is supposedly balanced). And without an AR/prep build, mage/priest/warrior is going to be massively more effective simply because warriors can take more punishment physicially, and put out more reliable damage than a rogue could dream of.
I think you're over-reacting there. Rogue's have more to offer than just great damage, at least in regards to warriors. True we don't have the big numbers constantly but I feel our class and our abilities more than makes up for that. Simply rogues are better at controlling others.
2.3.2 PTR Updates
Ambush: The damage multiplier on this ability has been increased from 250% to 275%.
Hemorrhage: This ability now correctly does additional damage when its debuff has already been applied.
Preparation now resets the cooldown of Shadowstep and no longer resets the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush. Shadowstep now adds a 3 second, 70% movement speed increase.
Sinister Calling now also increases the percentage damage bonus of Hemorrhage and Backstab by 2/4/6/8/10%.
Yes, but
107% Movement speed with boot enchant/meta socket, halfed by harmstring means 53,5% increased by 70% comes to 90,95%. Means that other classes are still running faster.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
107% Movement speed with boot enchant/meta socket, halfed by harmstring means 53,5% increased by 70% comes to 90,95%. Means that other classes are still running faster.
We don't know for sure it will actually be like that in practice. It might be calculated differently and give you 120% movement speed for 3 seconds. You could very well be right but you'll still be in range for a few attacks, and that's really about the same as what Intercept does for Warriors.
Let's be honest. If you can't shed roots/snares there is no point to ShS.
If you ShS and have 3 sec of 20% increased mobilitiy maximum (assuming you have a hamstring on you against warriors), you still fall behind not only druids, but any class that can snare you. This isn't a mobility fix. It's a "stay in your place so you get raped" fix. The fact that AR is taken off of prep is a slap in the face of most rogues who have achieved an 1850 of higher rating in S3. While PMR might be a solid combo, even after the fix, it still does not justify the fact that this change severely gimps one class in not only the 2v2 bracket, but the 5v5 bracket (over which PvP is supposedly balanced). And without an AR/prep build, mage/priest/warrior is going to be massively more effective simply because warriors can take more punishment physicially, and put out more reliable damage than a rogue could dream of.
Warriors also have no outs and are pretty much useless when forced to go defensive. They also lack the blind/sap combo which is hardly trivial.
Rogues already have 4-6 (imp sprint is attainable with ShS) root breakers, adding another on a short cooldown that also teleports you straight to your target would be straight up overpowered.
I PVP alot and I need some advice. I see all these REALLY good rogues with REALLY good 2v2s and 3v3s and stuff and they are using "Bloodlust Brooch" and not using "Talisman of the Alliance" (34 res and use the heal) is there like some unknown Resilance cap and or a place where it is not worth it anymore for res? becuase I have 465 res. Any advice?
I also see people with like 4 hit and 4 agi and crit and Ap and Agi gems in there pvp items is that just because they use it for pve too or ...what?
12/14/07, 3:23 PM
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