• LodeRunner

Perhaps you could provide some armories to flesh out your argument rather than vague sweeping statements.

 

Melnor

And that's why blizzard is so gunshy to do anything worthwhile to the class. That is how the general population sees the rogue class - as a class that ganks clothies at half life. That's the stigma with the class as a whole.

 

firebird365

With regard to Rogue/Healer, could someone lay out the difference between 25/36 QR/Combat versus full-blown Combat Maces? According to the Rogue DPS spreadsheet, getting rid of Surprise Attacks and Combat Potency would end up reducing your DPS by ~11%; however, that's assuming full Combat Potency uptime on a target. In PvP, where you're more often than not chasing someone, wouldn't the speed bonus from FF and the healing bonus from QR be a better investment than CP and Surprise Attacks?

 

berzerked

Honestly, I don't know why ANYBODY would ever go 41pt combat for pvp. I think its trash. I have yet to see anybody explain to me why 41pt is worth it. You can go AR/Prep or the following build that I posted erlier:

>> AR/CB [27/34/0] <<
Another build that might be worth playing with is the ar/cb build, I never see anybody use it, when I re-activated my account after a 2.8year leave I tried combat because everybody praised it.. I ended up dropping the 41pt combat build and did the following: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft It has awesome burst, great cp-gen and with the buff to aggression it might be worth trying again. The ar/cb build I linked is not final, but you get the raw idea.

Please, somebody explain why 41pt combat is worth it? Lets see, all you get is combat potency and surprise attack. Surprise attacks doesn't outweight CB, FleetFooted, QR, imp KS or imp poisons. And combat potency really isn't worth it when you spend more time chasing you're target and spamming specials - you would need 18.5 succesfull OH attacks to get a free SS.

 

Tinkerfizzle

Well, I think it really depends on the bracket you prefer to spec ideally for.

I personally am playing Combat Rogue/Restoration Druid with myself as 16/45, and I would not prefer to spec any other way. The most trouble Rogue/Healer teams have in 2v2 - in my experience - is with Warrior/Druid, Rogue/DPS, or obviously a mirror match of Rogue/Healer.

The benefit of having an undodgeable kidney shot against a 2-dps team Rogue is immediately obvious, especially considering that at this point in the game they're very likely to be AR/Prep, so being able to negate 10 of those 30 seconds while they've got evasion up is rather critical if you are trying to peel the Rogue from your healer, or just saving yourself if you're snared and can't break free to DPS the team's second DPS, whether that's a Shadow Priest, Warlock, etc.

As far as Warrior/Druid, granted the Warrior can have a higher resist rate of Kidney Shots than a rogue, but since that setup is essentially the Rogue/Healer's counter and the most reliable means of winning - at least in my experience at 2000-2100 at the moment - has been by donning full PvE gear and switching out certain poisons, the benefit of the necessary added sustained DPS is much more beneficial than QR or AR/Prep for guaranteeing a 100% win rate against virtually every counter-composition in the bracket.

 

berzerked

I guess, so giving up all the goodies in assasination or sub is worth an un-dodgeable KS. I don't think that would ever be reason enough for me, you can always gouge/sprint/clock and just KS from the back (attacks from the back don't get dodged).

 

Tinkerfizzle

Well, not just the benefit of the undodgeable finisher, but I feel the DPS gain from those final Combat talents, trivial as they may seem on paper, are a major dealbreaker vs a Rogue's most difficult counter-comps in 2v2. I really feel that QR is terribly overestimated, aside from limited situations against 2-dps teams.

 

firebird365

Can you elaborate on your methods against Warrior/Druid as Rogue/Druid? I'm specced Mutilate (trying to switch) and as you can imagine my nightmare fights are against AR/Prep Rogues and Warriors. Do you mean your Druid switches into PvE gear, and you weapon-switch to Shiv another poison on your target? Which of the two do you go for?

 

Tinkerfizzle

I stay in all PvE gear aside from the honor pieces and badge cloak - my Druid has no PvE gear to speak of, so I have no idea whether that'd help either, though I can say that healing potency has yet to be a problem for us against Warrior or even 2-dps teams if we're careful.

As for weapon-switching and who to go for, I typed a bit longer explanation of what we do against Warrior/Druid in the 2v2 Arena thread - edit, link located here: 2v2 Arena Thread

 

Hildegard

Can you link this here also ?

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Cirocco

Not really, a trainable ability that stuns the opponent on arrival and effectively gives a nearly always guaranteed few seconds of being in range is not the same as the movement speed on arrival buff which will occasionally allow you to stay in melee range if your quick enough and you don't get snared in some way. The two abilitys aren't really comparable, though I do enjoy the comparison, both melee class abilitys that allow you to close to melee from distance, yet one is an early trainable ability and one is a 41 point talent.

The best thing they could do for the rogue class is take away the damage component after Shadowstep, leave the movement speed or change that to a stun on arrival and move it from a 41 point talent to the trainer where it belongs.

If anyone has any arguments why that would be unreasonable, I'd enjoy hearing them.

 

Hildegard

This would definitely fix the mobility issues of deep combat or mutilate builds, but I think it is very unlikely to come. Make improved Shadowstep the new 41 with lower cooldown, the damage component and a 2 second stun. Also switch preparation with premeditation and let preparation set back all cooldowns including Riposte, Ghostly Strike, CoS, Blind, Solarplexus...

Ok, end of dreaming. So I see most rogues returning to some kind of a deep combat build.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Ozzmar

Yea, Armory links would be nice. PVP gear doesn't tend to have much AP on it, so Bloodlust Brooch is a great trinket to pair with Gladiator armors. But, that's only a guess with no actual rogues to look at.

As for the 4 Hit / 4 Agi gems, I would guess it's because your special attacks have a 5% chance to miss. PVP gear, in addition to having low AP, scarcely has any Hit on it whatsoever. So, in full PVP gear, it's not common for a rogue to be below that 5% Hit mark, and be able to completely miss a Mutilate, Hemo, etc. Long story short, missing your specials sucks.

Also, for future reference:

"There" refers to position (ie: Over there!)
"Their" implies ownership (ie: Their PVP items...)

 

Spoony

Those players are not at the res cap. They are geared offensively to make more use out of AR/Prep and it's damage during the duration.

Ice block is basically a vanish that actually works.

 

Spoony

Oh I dunno man, warriors seemingly don't have partners who dispel their roots so they can instantly stun AND "teleport" you to your target with a trainable talent who's cooldown is 50% shorter than a 41 talent point?

See, I can be biased too.

Our root breakers are finite, can't be spammed, and can be easily countered in the right hands of an enemy team. Even if a teammate dispels/removes it for us we can't magically instantly head back to where the rogues' last target is, which is probably 15+ yards away by then.

Warriors have an option to go defensive no matter what the spec is. Rogues on the other hand are fated to what their class design and purposes are no matter what spec he/she is.

Ice block is basically a vanish that actually works.

 

Kuai

Adding the bear charge "root" effect for 1-2 seconds to a shadowstep would allow a quick shiv for keeping on your target who is fleeing and doesn't piss off the fresh 70s in AV complaining about being "stunlocked 100%-0%" and personaly is the most reasonable buff I can see shadowstep getting.

 

Ozzmar

Wouldn't that kinda defeat the point of being able to do it in Stealth?

 

Tower

Why is it that geared warriors roll rogue alts and always seem to be "fine with the class how it is"?

Warriors have some of the highest health values, 30-40+% melee mitigation and the ability to up that mitigation by going into defensive and drastically reduce dps, did I mention spell reflect? When you're that hardy, have an instant 5 Wound Poison unclearable attack and a 15 second Shadowstep that stuns your target - who the fuck cares if you don't have 2-4 root breakers that have extremely long cooldowns to be considered arena overpowering?

Fact: It's absolute shit what Eyonix said about them being unhappy with all rogues going into Sub for Hemo (hello, I spent an extra 9 points in Sub). Look at the 2 most overpowered classes in the game, warlocks and warriors, gee they all have near identical specs. Mortal Strike and SL/SL, it's hilarious to see Blizzard post saying AR/prep is somehow more overpowered than these specs, at least our power burns out like a candle once our cooldowns are used, unlike Warrior/Lock who keep going and going. I wish they had the balls to say, "We're idiots, we're just trying to make you spec Shadowstep but have no fucking clue how to balance you to do so."

I guess warriors and druids can rejoice, as spriest/rogue and lock/rogue was only the real high end counter for druid/war druid/lock in 2v2, and druid/war/lock can go on dominating in 3v3 even over the best RMP teams.

The way rogues are balanced around cooldowns, if you can't pump out a lot of damage and avoid CC, then you can't win consistently with matchups that are competitive in higher brackets. By all means, suggest QR/Combat builds, who will your teammates be? You are a gimp mace warrior playing QR/Combat.

 

• LodeRunner

Is this about me? I like my Rogue

 

berzerked

Well, QR/combat isn't better than AR/Prep, but it's better than 41 combat which is just playing a really gimp mace rogue imo. I agree with you though, I think blizz just couldn't figure out a way to make rogues spec 41pt sub. One thing that rogues do have is the ability to shut down most classes.

 

Spoony

It would, but shadowstep out of stealth is the reason why it got it's hype up.

Ice block is basically a vanish that actually works.

 

Tower

We'll both agree 2.3 HARP > QR/combat, but I would value Combat Maces > QR/Combat. The strength of QR/Combat is pretty much +20% heals, which is traded for Suprise Attacks and other dps talents. And herein lines the problem with the rogue class, your spec has less damage but more survivability, but that doesn't change how gimp you are once your cooldowns are blown. My motto has always been for rogues in arena, if you can't get it done before a warrior would you never will. At least in combat maces I get more sustained damage and a stronger AR.

As for locking down classes, I'd really only put us on locking down Shadow Priests, Warlocks and other Rogues.

 

Mirag

People keep talking about how mutch substained dps you will give up by going shadowstep compared to say full combat.
How mutch of a truth is that actualy?
Assume you compare say 20/41/0 with 20/0/41 outside of AR.

 

Halfdane

What is your opinion of Shadowstep/Backstab for Healer/Rogue 2vs2 in 2.32? There was some analysis done earlier in this thread on damage/energy of daggers backstab vs. mace hemo, and Hemo and Backstab were about even against 400 resilience opponents at various levels of weapons.

Shadowstep/Backstab:

The Advantages:
Higher burst damage, especially after stealth
Better post Shadowstep damage
If you are crowd controlled often, you are better off with high energy/high damage attacks, since you have limited time next to your opponent, and may regen to full energy during CC. Additionally, damage/energy calculations assume you can get 4 white hits between each Hemo, which may not be possible under crowd control.

The Disadvantages:
Less Combo points (a big problem after opener)
Positioning
Crits may trigger opponent's defenses
Expensive but still viable in terms of talent points (18/0/43 vs 7/12/42 or 0/20/41)

If you had to spec Shadowstep, would you use maces or daggers?

 

Lchaim

I've been leveling a rogue that I have always intended to use almost exclusively for PvP. I always figured I would go combat maces before the 2.3 changes. Now I'm trying to figure out what will work best.

20/0/41 seems good, but it looks like I'll have an uphill battle staying over 5% hit while gearing up. Is combat maces still a viable option until I have enough sockets to fill with +8 hit gems? Is 0/20/41 even viable? I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.