sargsui

After the latest ShS changes, I'm about ready to throw in the towel until the expansion. It feels like they're just blindly trying random ideas until something works, and none of them feel right. I'm excited for Sealfate/ShS and Mut/Prep in WotLK, ignoring new 51pt talents those two specs alone should revitalize daggers.

On PTR now backstab damage is still laughable, ~1800 crits with not even 50% crit rate. That kind of damage which requires half an energy bar, positioning, and gets one CP is just tiresome.
I tried Mut on the PTR and was excited because the premades only have around 250 resilience. Conversely that same 250 resilience makes ShS/daggers look like a joke.

I'm wondering what they'll think of next?

 

togge

I think, that perhaps a change was needed. HARP was a bit cheesy and perhaps overpowered in some ways. But we're still just mid tier in 5v5 and not more dominant than resto druids or sl/sl locks in 3v3 so I really don't see it as a huge problem.

Anyways, it was nerfed or rather it will be, and it sucks to be us. So where do we go from here? I'm leaning towards the spec Mick suggested.

I'm currently focusing on my 3v3 team (lock/rogue/druid) since we seem to have a chance to actually get somewhere with it. I didn't really make good use of the double AR, except in mirror matches or semi mirror matches where it is my dmg pressure that decides a large part of the outcome (Think lock/war/druid, lock/rogue/pal). Since we're mostly an outlast team what I look for in a spec is control and sustained damage. Having control over rogues means I also need stealth skills since I have the upper hand in everything but a mirror due to paranoia.

Shadowstep is nice, but you can't have it and mace stuns, so it is quite out of question. Full combat has incredible sustained, and if you go QR/combat you save alot of your healers mana meaning it is easier to win the mana war. But then you lack all the stealth talents.

11/26/24 gives you more sustained damage than HARP, the same control and mobility at the cost of (for me) heightened senses, somes stun resistance, riposte & AR.


On another note, I'm curious what other people think about Mutilate in my team? Positional requirement hurts, and you can't proc stuns with daggers but I've always liked that build and if I can have my maces changed it would be nice to play it again.

 

Tiiki

I'm currently 41/20 cookie cutter mutilate and loving it for the moment. It's a very weak solo spec (pretty bad in BGs compared to something with mace stuns and BF, certainly), but it's awesome if you're not focused. It pumps out great damage, has great poison application and the 15% run speed was a lot more fun than I thought- when people run from you you can just continue to wail on them once you've made up those two steps they had on you.

What I'm wondering though, is, in these DPE comparisons, if people are comparing like for like: Like they say "with 1850 AP and S3 weapons..." but the fact is, you have about 300 more AP with a 41 Subt build than without due to the scaling talents. I went from 1760 unbuffed AP to 1450ish by going Mutilate- is this accounted for in the comparisons, because it certainly should be.

You also lose AP from your trinket slot because Renataki has no passive.

What are the best gems for Mutilate? I'm currently all AP'd up from AR/Prep (and I haven't decided whether I'll switch back to Agi gems for 20/0/41 (or 21/0/40 as Ming seems to think is better...) -- but what are the accepted Muti choices? I know crit is strong for Mutilate, but it also does great damage non-crit and I've always liked AP in resilience heavy matchups..?

Oh and ShS/Daggers is trash, sadly, at least from my initial testing. Even with 65% 'base' crit.

 

dreadloc

Am thinking of trialling Mutilate myself after the nerf to AR/Prep, however I would massively miss the sub tree talents (MOD, Elusive, Camo, Sap), I like to do a lot of Solo PVP and am thinking a 44/0/17 would be more my style. Is improved Sprint really that big? I feel I am wasting a lot of combat points (I don't play arenas at high level, I am only gladiator geared and don't have an arena team over 1600 due to playing with friends for fun rather than progress). I am undead and can save my trinket for a snare instead of a fear and I will also be going Surefooted and Meta gem to get 20% snare/root resist.

Do you recommend 41/20/0 over 44/0/17 or is it purely from a highish arena perspective that this is considered better?

As for gemming I am going agi over ap purely for balance (I also don't have a renataki so have to make do with the 80ap trinket). Meaning I will eventually be sitting at about 1400 ap, 32% crit and 76 Hit rating (all I can squeeze) with just under 11k health and 370 resilience. For my bracket that's fine but like I say I don't do high ratings and my arena partner is an averagely geared SPriest so I am often last to be killed.

P.S. On the subject of Renataki, is this possible with 5-men to get? I know the encounters and how it works (I raided up to and including Naxx pre BC on a pve rogue, this is a pvp re-roll for TBC and I haven't been to ZG on him). I have a group of friends who can run it (Rogue, Priest, Druid (feral), Mage and a Hunter) all of who have SSC/TK gear. I can ply them with beer every fortnight for 8 weeks so I can get my elements.

 

Avair

I'm still undecided whether I'm going to return to Combat Maces, Combat/QR or Step in 2.3.2. I'm leaning Combat, mainly due to its suitablity for both PvP/PvE and raiding, which is a nice bonus.

Dragonspine Trophy vs. Bloodlust Brooch
I just last night managed to pick up the DST, and I'm two badges from being able to pick up a Bloodlust Brooch, which seems to be the gold standard for trinkets. Anyone have any experience with both of these and what's preferred in arena? Obviously, its a question of sustained vs. burst, so it might be spec dependent.

 

Tiiki

There are lots of Rogues out there who must have a DST and Brooch, and yet I only ever see Brooch equipped when I armory Arena folks- I think 'on demand' beats passive every time.

For mutilate, with no Renataki, you can pop it before your KS/CB/Muti combo.
For combat, you can pop it with your AR+BF(+troll beserking (w00t!)). Since it adds to every strike it's great with both white damage and yellow damage cooldowns.

I'm sure DST is nice, especially if you can keep good uptime (though that's been nerfed now, right?) for poisons. But I still think yellow damage > white in arena (because of time on target) and DST doesn't even affect that.

It's a no brainer IMO...

Incidentally, with Sinister Calling / Dirty Deeds / Deadliness / Serrated and the 11 Assass talents, I don't think 20/0/41 will do terrible raid damage at all, even without DW spec. I could be wrong mind, but it feels to me like it'd be decent. Excuse pure speculation, I look forward to the rogue spreadsheet analysis of it

 

Tower

PvP Source : Your #1 Source for Competitive World of Warcraft PvP

Decent little Shadowstep article and point of view of rogues from season to season. I tried Shadowstep with my usual partner in 2v2 at 1925 rating and lost every game to teams with druids, without AR or Maces there's just no way to rushdown players during fear -> blind duration. If this nerf goes through, it's going to put rogues at the very bottom of the pecking order, which sucks because we were already low in 5v5.

 

Tiiki

You're right, but no other class can rush down druids either. Before that 30% dmg reduction buff they were top tier in 2v2, now, with that + the insta-shift mega-buff, they're absurd, since you can't even 'catch' them in caster form (not to mention their armor+barkskin in caster anyway...) /whine

That's why warrior / druid has no hard counter, really...

 

Tower

I wasn't talking about focusing druids, I was talking about focusing warlocks, rogues, hunters and warriors (the partners of druids) while you CC the druid. In 2dps 2v2 you generally don't focus the healer, as it opens up the dps to wail and CC you. There's one really great counter to druid/warrior and that was Shadow Priest/rogue, I know, I played it to Gladiator and we ate many many 2300+ druid/war teams for 18+ point wins, but you basically need AR in the equation for it to work, 2 ARs made it really possible with increasing hp/healing from the druid/war combo. Combat Maces won't pull it off because you need an AR + multiple snare breaks (which means prep) to be successful, because a smart warrior will sit in defensive with a shield and spamstring his way to victory.

No one focuses druids in small brackets thanks to 2.3, except the occasional warrior intercept stun beatdown that occurs.

 

• LodeRunner

I wonder, then, if Rogue/Retadin would work. Seems like it could be fun with freedom and Judgment of Justice on Druids.

 

vellon

I'm rushing a rogue towards 70 (39 atm) and have finally decided on speccing muti (41/20/0) I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried to build riposte into a muti build? The damage from riposte wouldn't be as powerful using a dagger, but the disarm would still be there helping to take down warriors and other rogues. Would the loss of Imp Sprint or a few points in DW spec be catastrophic?

 

Tiiki

You can't REALLY kill non-retarded warriors as muti spec outside of your stuns and an assist train. Maybe it's just me, but I find it very hard to get behind a warrior once hamstrung, even once every 6 seconds, if they're any good.

The disarm would be nice, but not worth the loss in yellow and white damage you'd take from losing DW spec. Equally, the extra 5% parry gets used a lot less, since you need to avoid facing your opponents with Mutilate.

The difference in playstyle between a deep Combat spec where you literally 'tank' your opponents (and which deals with warriors, hunters, enh shaman and other (esp. dagger) rogues really well), and a Mutialte one, which has better sustained and burst damage, and better poisons, are quite pronounced.

I'd even say, outside of unpredictable Mace Stuns, Mutilate provides better caster control- specs that wait for 60e per attack always have enough to kick, where Mace specs live on spamming the GCD a lot of the time and give you less 'free' time.

The problem, as some folks in this thread have so succinctly put it, is that great though a 41 Combat spec can be, after the AR you're just a gimped, less maneuverable, less survivable warrior with less burst...

Hell, even as Mutilate in a 2346 (i.e. me), we don't have the ability to target switch as a warrior can once he has full rage. I have an Expose, Poisons and CPs to save up on my target before we call for some burst, so switching is out of the question.

 

Hildegard

Nearly no rogue seems to be happy with the changes. I seriously doubt that the current PTR version will go live. I read through many websites (Arena Junkie, Gameriot, PVP Source and Elitist Jerks) but nowhere anyone really has a strong build, that would work.

Mutilate and combat are far more favored by the writers there than the new shadowstep builds. I think the developers will realise, that this change made players actually spec out of the sub tree.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

legztec

As every rogue now i'm looking for a new spec.
Currently i'm 41/20/0 and did love to play this spec but today i'll have enough points to get the s2 mainhand and realy want to try something new.

I've seen a lot of talent builds pass but still think HARP as the most apealing even after the nerf.
There is only one build I can think of that I'd consider over HARP but I'd like some oppinions.
I was thinking about this spec complimented by the s2 Fistweapon.
I think this spec has very high sustainded damage and extreme burst on demand.
My s2 gear + the fistweapon talent will provide around 35% crit for seal fate.
The combination of the first trees should give enough mobility and should keep my target close.
Downside would be that shs rogues and feral druids have an advantage over me but Mut spec has the same problem.

 

berzerked

I would re-work the build a little bit, but I've already posted about combat/QR builds, and the only responses I got said 41pt combat is better.. because of suprise attacks and combat potency.... I guess nobody considered CB, FleetFooted, QR or imp ks (there is your surprise attacks dmg bonus).

Here is my variation of the build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

 

dreadloc

I tried out a Muti spec on the PTR last night, I also tried Shadowstep. I must admit I was very frustrated as Mutilate. Bear in mind this was random BG's but getting a target poisoned and in position is very painful with the amount of snares this game has. Warriors were just tearing me apart with Gouge Parry's and Kidney resists. I also found the damage quite lacking.. is this just me? It was with a 44/0/17 build.

Shadowstep on the other hand was a lot of fun and much less frustrating. Yes I can see people having a problem with the lack of burst damage but I must say it was quite refreshing to play. I did find the cooldown seemed to be a little too long. There were times I was mashing it to catch a target but it was still on cooldown.
It really was nice to have some Ass talents back again, I just hope they can sort Shadowstep to break roots and then I think it will be the spec for me, however currently it's still a little too weak to break from full combat for arena.

 

Melnor

I would have to say that mutilate is more gear dependant than shadowstep and that is maybe why you felt the damage of mutilate lacking, dreadloc. A shadowstep build has more stat bonuses down the tree and innate % damage bonus' on abilities than a mutilate build does. Plus you were the subtlety version of mutilate which does less damage overall than a 41/20 mutilate build. Also, I'd like to add that I probably wouldn't spec mutilate without a renataki's trinket but that is just personal preference. 120 energy plus renatakis damage combo is probably the best burst a rogue can do these days but I imagine some shadowstep damage combo could come close.

Anyone ever know why Blizzard didn't allow the use of Thistle Tea in arenas? Does this make sense to other rogues? I sure would love 120 energy + renatakis + tea damage combo on someone

 

Tiiki

Because no consumables of any kind are allowed?

deadloc: I find Mutilate always feels terrible at first because it's NOT a button mashing build. This is one of its hidden strengths, IMO. I hated it when I first switched back (despite it being my spec from 70 onwards way back when). It takes time to get used to its rhythm, reversed from the normal (start with a finisher to pop find weakness, for example).

This is another reason I think Combat is the natural fit for it- imp SnD[plus, I guess, DW spec] is a perfect canditate for 1 CP to get/keep Find Weakness up.

 

dreadloc

Thanks a lot, I think I will give it another try tonight. I loved it a 60 during the HWL grind pre-Christmas last year. But it was a different story ten, and you could really shut somebody down in a CS>KS combo.

I am testing both builds out on the PTR in full Merc Glad gear and therefore gear isn't a major factor, but not having a Renataki is a major downer to the Mutilate build. The reason I am shying away from the combat mutilate is I miss the sub talents when BG'ing but I shall respec the combat version tonight and try again.

It's why premades are so useful, to test out new specs and report feedback/bugs.

 

Tiiki

It's never going to be great in BGs now, with the amount of resi and health around, but as long as you can crack the positioning it shouldn't be too much worse than SStep/Maces. Only Combat Maces wins out because Mace Stuns are awesome.

Having said all this, we just lost 100 pts in Arena last night to a team with a Rogue/Warrior who just mercilessly jumped on me every game. Our priest was free to Mana Burn but it didn't really help- when the enemy has two non-mana DPSers they still win. After my trinket, sprint, vanish, etc. are up, they just eventually kill me. You can't kite a Warrior forever, it was very frustrating. In fact, it felt like the pain of being a Rogue in 5s in S1 all over again, only, in S3 there is no 4dps line up to fit into

 

berzerked

Priest || SPriest || Lock || Rogue || Mage

 

Avair

I believe Tiiki's point is that 4 DPS teams are dead now. Killed by Pain Suppression, a spell designed to prevent early massive burst damage to the 4DPS team's target.

 

Tiiki

Indeed Avair.

We actually ran Paladin/Afflock/Spriest/Elesham/Me at the start of S3. It was terrible. Priest and Lock in those specs are WAY too squishy for S3. S3 should be subtitled "No More Soft Targets" -- the reason Afflocks are weak (they get gibbed) is similar to Mutilate rogues; more threatening+less defence = dead. Which is why I'm trying it out now, before I spend points on weapons. It may turn out that SStep/Prep comes out top just because it's the SL/SL of Rogue specs. Even without Step/Prep, things like Surefooted + 15% enveloping shadows + 4% heightened senses and/or cheat death shouldn't be underestimated.

And the problem was, that Warrior/Rogue team we lost to wasn't exactly a top-tier lineup, so we lost 20pts each game. And their rogue was AR/Prep swords which is a LOT of damage in a KS, which is what got me each time- you trinket one, you die in the next, 20s later. I'm not AR/Prep now just because I don't want to practise an obsolete spec.

I'm sure we could beat them but after 4 losses and it being 2am we called it a day. I need more kiting practise, got out of the habit since 90% of teams go on our priest (which is what we like!).

I'm also in the usual/sad position of being worse than a warrior on my current team, in every way.

My current plan is still to stick muti a little while longer though, double melee teams aren't common.

 

Vestalina

0/20/41 is one spec that seems to have gone underlooked. I was testing this spec out last week before I got my S3 MH mace with a S1 MH fist. I was easily topping the damage (at one point 100k over 2nd place) in pre-made BG's over guildmates that have been past Gladiators, S3 weapons, and geared out in BT gear. I was seeing white crits (unbuffed) of 1300+ consistently which somewhat surprised me. All I did was keep SND up and bulldozer over dozens of horde pre-made with ease.

Why I like 0/20/41... instead of one Adrenaline Rush (assuming they are taking it off prep):

--You get to keep improved sprint, precision, and DW spec (my favorite combat talents)

--+15% agi boost (amazing for everything that is rogue)

--10% damage boost for 6 secs out of stealth (if you choose Master of Subtlety)

--10% back from the 15% we lose from the Hemo nerf (if they implement the changes we only lose 5% but still gain the increase in debuff which somewhat offsets that)

--Premed -> ShadowStep (if they give it one CB) -> Opener = 5 CB points

--Not reliant on the timing of one adrenaline rush for gamebreaking because one will do solid consistant damage while being able to EASILY stay on the target.

--This spec has the "iron-man" aspect of AR/PREP but instead has shadowstep instead of AR....and much heavier consistent damage output.

**If they give the 70% run speed for 3 secs after Shadowstep, that would be amazing for catching running druids because it gives you room for error even if your CPU lags

*Great counter for all the mutilate rogues that are going to appear if they implement the changes because even if you're stunned... trinket, vanish, Shadowstep behind them, Cheapshot them and proceed to own. Even if your Cheapshot is resisted you still have the 70% run speed to jump around him like an idiot shivving and rupturing him to keep him from restealthing. I can't see losing a duel to a mutilate rogue with this build unless you get really unlucky.

Simply put, this build hits like a truck. I dueled a warrior (3pce venge, 2pcemerc) and he used his sword/board. I tossed expose up on him and layed in with SND with the occasional ghostly strike...I blew him away despite the amount of AC he had (prep wasn't used and I still had a blind not used).

Keep in mind, all of this is when I used a S1 MH fist weapon.

But as of right now, all I have to say is enjoy AR/PREP for as long as it lasts (it will be the best thing that happened to rogues in TBC and people will talk about it when they are level 80 about how awesome it was). If they do decide to implement the changes and nerfing AR/PREP, you can be assured that I will be testing 0/20/41 spec with my arena partners.

I somewhat like the changes Blizzard is doing with the rogue talents. They want to further define the different talents for players that like to play different specs. Rogues now have multiple viable specs for PVP which I think is great for the class as a whole. I'd rather see different styles then the same cookie cutter rogues in every match.

 

Tower

Well, call me a min/max'r, but I'd rather have 1 competitive spec that 2-3 mediocre ones.

No rushdown.
No fast game.
No challenge.