Edit: This is my first time posting on the EJ forums, though I've been a longtime reader.
I wasn't sure if this was the right spot to put this post, so please correct me if it wasn't.

A friend and I have just hit 1700 tonight. The highest we could seem to reach was 1750, and we are having some real trouble getting anywhere consistently above that.

That's why I came here for help.

I know that 1750 sounds like a decent number for some folks, but we are aiming for 1900+. Is Disc Priest / Rogue still a viable combo in today's Arena metagame? If anyone has had any experience playing such a team combo in Season 3, please, share your thoughts.

My Priest partner is 41 Disc and has 450 Resilience.
I'm 41/0/20 Mutilate (see spec) and I have 3/5 Merc and 1/5 Vengeful, 377 Resilience. I could push to 400 by equipping my Timelapse Shard, but I figured the AP and burst capability of Bloodlust Brooch would be preferred.

And some further questions:

1) Warrior/Paladin combos are like hell to us. What should we focus, and how do we deal with the other?
2) Warrior/Druid is also really tough. Same question.
3) ...To be honest, ANY team involving a Warrior can spell trouble, due to both Priest and Rogue being weak to Warrior. What can I do to try and minimize this glaring weakness?
4) Any team involving a Hunter is also troublesome, since the Hunter can drain my Priest's mana while kiting me pretty effectively. Any suggestions there?
5) And this is my most pressing question: Am I hurting the team speccing Mutilate? I looked up some numbers, and while about 50% of the top-rated 2v2 Rogues are HARP, that is getting nerfed with 2.3.2 and won't be nearly as powerful. 7% are 41/20 Combat Mutilate, and 5%~ are Combat Maces. With the HARP nerf incoming, I am skeptical to pick up maces, and I prefer the playstyle of Mutilate. Plus, it seems that (looking at the numbers), Mutilate will be what most people will be speccing after HARP is nerfed, anyway.

Any feedback on these questions would be greatly appreciated!

Mutilate is uselessly weak against Warriors. Some kind of deep Combat spec with Riposte + Mace Stun is best. HARP was particularly awesome and part of its versatility was its ability to burn down warriors- not sure if anything can replace it in 2.3.2.

So you think it's hopeless?

Will I have to go grind 25k honor and shelve my s2 daggers? =(

And worse... what do I do when 2.3.2 arrives and nerfs the crap out of HARP? Combat Maces?

That's what I'm trying to figure out. I can't decide if I want to go 11/43/7 or 41/20/0 next patch. I honestly dislike the problems created with lag when playing mutilate; positional attacks are never entirely perfect. I also don't want to lose 5 points in MoD and I love Dirty Tricks. Riposte and mace stuns are nice as well, but then mutilate seems to provide more consistent burst. I've played them both somewhat extensively on the PTR and still can't decide. Anyone have any input? This is for a 3dps 5s team.

I've started learning to 2v2 with a mage but I managed a 1940 2v2 with shaman before the latest batch of druid buffs (wtf ). Someone was telling me lifebloom doesnt give the big heal unless the stack is completely removed. If you try and purge down to 1/2 stacks of lb you might actually be able to pressure the druid into a long heal that your shaman can stop and if you save your AR for that you MIGHT be able to burst the warrior down. That's assuming he isnt saving disarm for your AR and doesn't just put on a shield and tank/kite you in defensive stance til he can get a heal.

Even with HARP there are druids that can outlive me through everything I have. With a resto shaman partner I really can't suggest you make a habit of going for the druid. That match just sucks in general. I went with a mage parter so I had a better shot against warrior/druid but I pay for it evey time I get lock/paladin.

Hit 1900 already with mut rogue/disc priest. Wasnt too bad, I dont have s2 offhand I still use malchazeen but it does the job.

1. DPS warrior while you cc the paladin, after he bubbles to save warrior mass dispel and continue chain cc on paladin till warrior is dead.

2. Warrior/Druid Dps warrior then switch off to druid when his mana is low through healing/mana burn.

3.Stunlock/Gouge/Kite warrior whenever he uses cd's and whenever you or your healer is low on hp, after that go back to dpsing him down and continue to LOS him from his healer.

4. If you are being kited by a hunter in arena you need more practice. A hunter should not be able to kite a mut rogue in 2v2 period. They may be able to get away for a second or two, but I usually double or triple a hunters dps by the end of the match while my healer just abuses poles all day long.

5. Go to ptr, try all the specs. Play what you like and enjoy on live server.

So how useful will mutilate be for 5s ? Consistent burst is still popular? If anyone has any input on what to do next patch I'd love to hear it. Right now I have s2 maces and I don't know whether to revert back to 20/41/0 in maces.. without all the stealth abilities i have.. which could only be cheated away in 5s. Should I just get s1 daggers and got 41/20?

Another question, how does Malc scale with s2 /s1 daggers in arena? Would it better as the MH or the OH? I'm probably losing some decent dmg if it were on my MH but I can't seem to understand the waste of energy shiving with a 1.8. Right now my 5s is doing good and we'll probably hit 1850 eventually whether the next few weeks or when all the good teams are at 2k. My 3s is looking good but I'm not sure how far RWD will go.

No one knows yet.

The silence is the slight silence of dejection-- we've talked all the angles now, now we just need to wait. I for one hope 2.3.2 doesn't go live exactly as is. Clearly the answer to 'removing' AR/Prep as the de facto choice is to buff Mutilate and SStep specs to be better. Not to just remove the viable choice and give SStep some extra mobility (who cares?).

I still like Mut a lot, as I keep saying. But it still feels like a big step back from HARP purely due to the loss of: MOD, Riposte, Camo, Extra range sap/blind, 90 sec blind, 10% parry, *Mace stuns!* and so on. All those add up to a LOT, in exchange for some controlled burst (and a packet of other restrictions).

So the answer is: wait and see...

[ps I have S2 Shanker/Shiv, S1 Shanker and Malchazeen and currently run S2 Shanker + S1 Shanker for Mutilate. They are itemised better than Malch (whose hit is a bit of a waste in 41/20), have some resi and have the most burst. S2 Shiv would be an equally good choice. You need at least 2 OHs for weapon swap shivving anyway-- you're all doing this, right? ]

What do people think about these? From reading the rogue gear spreadsheet it seems that executioner might actually be a better choice for raiding. It seems like given the fact that many opponents in arena's don't have as much armor as bosses usually do executioner might be even better for arena (particularly because three of the S3 pieces have 84 passive armor pen and armor pen does better the higher it's stacked, until hit capped at least)???

Okay. Ive been using this spec for the last 2 weeks now.

its 17/0/44 Shadow step spec, using S2 Maces. Ofc it doesnt matter if i used maces/fists/swords for this spec but the point is im not using daggers. This build gives high AP, High crit damage Hemo strikes, with quick Combo point generation and the ability to shadow step (particularly useful vs mages). And it doesnt rely on position.

The Down side is, Ok... im ussing traditional combat wepons, but i dont have Duel Wield spec or Precision. so i do 25% offhand dmg instead of 75% and im missing 5% more with my whites. Luckily i have 90Hit rating in my S3 armour, and i dont miss with Specials.

Having 10%increased AP 15% increased Agil and 5/5 Lethialithy and a LOT of armour Pen ~ 1000, gives some very high Hemo + Evisc hits. have 33% crit and 1900AP. The worry is, am i missing too much white damage by completely neglection the Combat tree?

Could I hear some of your opinions on this spec, my current alternative to Hemo/AR/Prep.

cheers shayd.

Your spec is the one Blizzard would love Rogues to take.

But the question is: in what way is a 17/0/44 Rogue better than a Warrior?

You're less mobile, do less sustained damage and don't have mace stun or hamstring. It's harder for you to switch target and easier to kill you. You do have Blind and a few other tricks, but broadly, I'd still take a Mace Warrior any day of the week.

Enveloping Shadows > Master of Sublety. Cheat Death is only good if you run with healer.

For PvE part, I don't think you can get any decent cycles with that spec. The combo point generation is quite slow and you don't have Improved SnD with that variation (vs. 0/20/41 compared). I would guess it's behind 3x/0/3x , and even that spec isn't high on raid dps.

Mutilate is quite fine at it's current state, playing ~2000 in 2v2, 3v3 (RWD combo) and sometimes 5v5. There are many variations of Mutilate specs, but from my experience 5x/0/xx variation is most powerful if you have right team setup to go with. Problem with typical 41/20/0 spec is that your assassination tree is so tremendously tight when it comes to talent points. If you switch to Subtlety Mutilate you have spare points for all poison talents. Mutilate without enough poison talents is quite awful damage, and if you are going to play against dispellers (druids and shamans mostly), your poisons can be cleansed fast.

Some tend to say that "Imp. Sprint is superior to Subtlety ones and therefore Combat Mutilate is the only way to go", but as I see it, more poison talents -> less likely your enemies are going to get away from you (only exception BoF). Fleetfooted + Surefooted also help quite alot, not even talking about the 15% movement speed bonus.

After 2.3.2 I predict 11/43/7 and 50/0/11 specs to be two best arena spec for rogue. From my experience Shadowstep ain't good enough for serious play. I myself like Mutilate more because playing with healer in 2v2, and even in 3v3 "ghetto mortal strike" is good.

Biggest issue with Mutilate probably is if you tend to have lag, it's quite awful to play then.

Since HARP is going to get nerfed, and shadowstep will only be viable for amazingly geared peeps (since the deep talents like deadliness and sinster calling scale so well). I've been debating which build I wanna play, qr/combat or stick with 41/20 mutilate.
NOTE: Article about shadowstep beatdown

I've been playing mutilate for a while now, and I've been wondering what is the real strenght of mutilate? and how does it's sustained damage compare to a combat build. I have tried specialized muti builds like 50/0/x which allow for awesome poisons app but don't seem to be as balanced as a 41/20 muti build.

41/20 Mutilate vs QR/Combat combat - What are their strengths and weaknesses? At first glance, mutialte seems to be the build when it comes to sustained damage and burst w/o relying on CDs. So if mutilate is considered sustained dmg, then what is combat? (really, tell me, cuz I'm confused).
-----------------------------------------
Lets see what makes mutialte a sustained dmg build:
Mutialte + dual weild spec + awesome CP gen

What makes combat sustained dmg build:
Dual weild spec + SS spam + combat potency (12 oh attacks == free SS)

So which yeilds more dmg? SS spam or Mutilate spam?
-----------------------------------------
One thing Mutilate has that I think a lot of people love is the on demand burst, because 2 Mutialtes in theory is an awesome amount of dmg w/o any kind of CD. Both Combat and Muti pride themselfs on NOT being CD reliant, which once again makes me very confused.

Using the logic above, I have come to the conclusion that mutialte > combat because it offers sustained dmg and on demand burst. Unless the SS Spam yeilds more dmg than a mutilate spam does, and this is where I need you guys to help me out.

After playing mutialte for a 'lil bit I want to note something that I think gets overlooked A LOT in mutialte posts. Even though mutilate spam is awesome CP gen and better dmg/energy than SS (I think), you target HAS to be poisoned.. and you know how OFTEN I have to spam shiv on my targets, I would say I shiv at least once for ever 2-3 mutilates, unless I stick to a non-mobile target for a long time. If I was spamming SS, I wouldn't be forced to shiv my targets all the time and thats why I've really been considering QR/Combat (I prefer QR/Combat because it's a more balanced build vs 41 pt combat imo). Oh and the whole on demand burst thing.. fails if you are switching targets, simply because I have to shiv my target.

As you can see, i'm very confused about the differences between muti and combat (from an abstarct view). I would appreciate your input on the strength of combat and mutilate, and why would I want to spec one over the other.

Thanks

I never Shiv as Mutilate spec, except druids and occasionally if my target seems to try get away, it just simply ain't worth of it. This is where the 5x/0/x specs start to shine due 1) your poisons will apply super fast and 2) they will stick on the target so you don't need to reapply them, which overall gives damage boost.

I think the fundamental problem with Mutilate is that you either require a) Improved Poisons or b) PvE gear for hit.
I run with around 125~~hit (+5% from Precision) and I stack poisons up faster than a shaman+poison cleanse totem can remove it. I'm not sure if it would be the case. But I agree that 5x/x/x is quite good for mutilate, but imho it depends on what kind of setup you're running with. A warlock for one doesn't benefit from Imp Kidney as much as a mage does. (ie you in RMP you can time your nukes during the second or third kidney to ensure a nice 6 seconds of +10% damage). With RWD it's not that easy. Your warlock can call out when he gets Nightfall procs though.


I don't know. You don't really need MoD+Imp Sap in Combat Maces, so those points could be better spent in better places. Expertise, Poison Talents, whatnot.


I have to disagree, shiv is one of our strongest tools. I often remind my dueling partners that they only lost because they didn't use shiv here or there. Of course duels don't reflect arena combat but I've had a few situations when I've been left 1v1 with a (harp)rogue and I've won due to good shiv usage.

Then again it's probably a matter of playstyle.

Edit:
5x/x/x imo is more of a 3v3/5v5 spec, where you're needed more for fast poison application and the extra burst damage, rather than a standalone sustained damage unit.

Aah, but Pure Combat offers some benefits as well. "Mace Spec", Blade Flurry, Expertise, Undodgable finishers. It's not as clear cut.

Well by on demand burst it's meant that you stay on your target, get snd, EA(optionaly), 5cp and then wait for a full energy bar and a coordinated CC from your teammates and then you drop Kidney and unleash Mutilate->Finisher/Mutilate->Renataki->Mutilate->...->Profit. Or somesuch.


Well I'd say that Pure Combat offers a "easier" playstyle and Mutilate is requires a bit more finesse but is more unforgiving to mistakes/bad RNG.

Best advice is to copy over to PTR, play around with different specs and find what you enjoy. ^^

Thanks for the feedback! I do have a premade on PTR, in duels I found ShS and QR/Combat to be the best, haven't had a chance to play arenas on PTR yet. I've played 41combat/ all varations of mutilate / hemo cb / Shs.

In the end though, I still can't figure out what combat or mutilate bring to the table.

Example: Going Shs or SF/Prep will bring awesome mobility. If my team needed me for a very specific role that required mobility over sustained dmg.. I could spec some variation of the subelty tree.

When it come to mutilate or combat.. I just don't see why I would want to spec one over the other (playstyle aside).

Here's a general pvp question:

With AR/Prep being nerfed in 2.3.2, has anyone considered an 11/26/24 spec for pvp? The upcoming nerf seems to make Relentless Strikes slightly more valuable as it's essentially our only source of energy returns now. And with Hemo generating points fairly quickly, it sounds like it could work reasonably well.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The problem with a spec like that is the lack of burst. You will have very consistent damage, but won't have the ability to apply pressure at key moments.

You don't want to play PvP with trispec hemo, I can tell you.

The biggest issue I've had with running mutilate (which I am loving so far for S3) is the reduction of Resil since I am having to trade that stat for more Hit. I've found having Imp. Ambush to be simply amazing, and given that I only have 13 free points to play with after finishing the assassination tree, it fits perfectly. Trying to push my crit rating above 30% is my second concern; seriously considering the 40 crit rating trinket from badges even though the AP one rates higher. While the spreadsheet models both trinkets, anyone have any real-world feedback/input about the two?

Why are you finding Imp Ambush amazing? Can you give some scenarios?

I've found it lacklustre, though admittedly I tried it for an extremely limited time. Getting behind someone in stealth and without ShS or MoD is pretty tough in an arena...

After checking your armory page I have few doubts (seems like its PvE gear). First, why stack hit gems and hit stuff when you are Subtlety Mutilate specced? Your white damage ain't that awesome without DWSpec so why bother. I myself have taken totally different approach by gemming only for yellow damage boost (crit, agility) and it is so far worked absolutely well. I can do equal damage compared to better geared combat sword rogue with my unorthodox 43/0/18 spec (in PvE that is) and I'm just running with about 200hr without precision. In raid situation I'm sitting in about 45-50% crit chance all the time (thanks for T6 trinket) which allows me to have almost perfect rupture uptime while having SnD up all the time. Rupture also gains bonuses from both FW and SB which makes this spec to not need the additional hit rating in PvE.

I even consider mutilating from stealth over ambush, mutilate simply seems to do alot more damage can gain you 3CP. Ambush is awful, not sure if the PTR change will make it any better. Onehand mutilate crit does same amount damage than crit ambush.

I've had alot problems deciding between 50/0/11 and 43/0/18 spec for PvP. It mostly comes down to 2/2 imp. EA + 2pts imp. poisons + 3/3 imp. kidney shot vs 1pts MoD + 3pts camouflage + serrated blades. SB seems to negate imp. EA part but still not sure if it's worth to take SB for PvP over 2pts imp. poisons and imp. KS. Imp. KS doesn't help at all in PvE except Hyjal trash, and while running with healer in 2v2 and druid warlock rogue combo in 3v3, I don't see imp. KS to be that big loss afterall. But on other hand when thinking about how much serrated blades 30% rupture damage boost helps in PvP, it's quite debatable also.

Any clue between 50/0/11 and 43/0/18?