Andeh

I keep seeing people chosing Camo in a Subt-Mut build, but it was my understanding that Camo does not stack with Fleet Footed. They both increase speed by 15%, and FF says "This does not stack with other movement speed increasing effects." Has someone tested them and found otherwise?

 

Darlal

I *believe* the last time I tested this it appeared that camo actually decreases the speed debuff caused by stealth. Thus fleet footed boosts your base speed and camo lowers the debuff causing a very fast stealthed rogue.

 

Ozzmar

Well, saying that they "stack" is misleading as they're two separate effects. But yes, Darlal is right. Fleet Footed increases how fast you move regardless of your Stealth status. Camo just reduces how much being in Stealth slows you down, effectively bringing you to normal walking speed in Stealth. It's sweet.

 

ekval

FleetFooted + 5/5 Camouflage brings you to 97% Stealth speed if I'm not mistaken (almost normal run speed without stealth).

 

Tower

That works, but unless you plan on being in control the majority of the match, split dps or on demand snares for one of the rogues is going to be a problem or at least slow with weapon swapping an offhand with crippling in.

A team seeing 2 rogues zergin a target are going to CC the hell out of them, removing 5 poisons every 8s is pretty crippling when in say war/druid/lock the warrior intercepts one rogue and the other is feared.

It's clear from other people's example that druid/rogue/rogue can be pretty competitive, I just think a good war/druid/lock or war/druid/rogue team (read: no cloth, plenty of plate, hard to burst) is gonna wreck them pretty hard.

 

Shadowed

Yea, I think you'd have a hard time pulling it off in 3s would be good for the first few times people play you but eventually they'll get used to countering it, like everything good players could probably pull it off somewhere but I'd have a hard time seeing it becoming popular in 3s. For 2s, mostly for the reasons I gave in the last post you'd have a better chance.

 

Vestalina

Two saps, two blinds, chain saps, cyclones, and roots are pretty good CC. Not to mention we usually own one person so he's completely out of the game while taking 4 adrenaline rushes to the face while his DPS partner is chain blinded, resapped, and while our druid cyclones his healer. When we control the pace of the game, we win almost every time.

I wouldn’t say the CC is bad for this setup because the damage output can almost count as a second CC due to if their healer is not healing, our target will die in seconds. When the enemy team’s healer is stuck healing full time and using up tons of mana, that is a form of CC (indirect mana drain in a sense). At least that’s how I think of it, call me a noob if you want.

I would just say that CC has a smaller margin for error because we want don’t want DR to rape us if the match drags out too long (which if it is a long match then we failed our strategy already anyway).

So a mutilate rogue and combat rogue? Be more specific please, Quick Recovery combat or Full combat? Personally I hate the playstyle of full combat. Quick Recovery combat I might have a second look at. Anymore suggestions?

 

stickybandit

What do y'all think of Korea spec(that's what I heard it referred to as on the official forums)?
23/0/38

I've been messing around with it on the PTR and as far as I can tell it's damn potent as far as a dueling spec and in 2v2 with a healer (switch out fleet footed with QR).

 

Hildegard

No improved Sprint, no Shadowstep. Works for Gnomes as we have one more rootbreaker. I think that fleet footed can be very nice, but even with the boot enchant 20% snare resist is hoping for luck with rng. Also the burst damage isn't that good. 2x cold blood eviscerate won't kill anyone because eviscerate scales very bad.

Bonusdamage with 1000 AP: 1000 * (5 * 0.03) = 150
Bonusdamage with 2500 AP: 2500 * (5 * 0,03) = 375

Eviscerate (1000AP) = (904 + 150) - (1012 + 150) = (1054 - 1162) * 1,15 = 1212 - 1336
Eviscerate (2500AP) = (904 + 375) - (1012 + 375) = (1278 - 1387) * 1,15 = 1470 - 1596

Means for 1500 AP more you get 260 damage more or 520 on a critical eviscerate. Take 30% melee reduction and your cold blood eviscerates crit for 3192 * 0,75 = 2394 in the best case. Now consider 400 resilience which reduces the critical damage by another 20% and you get 1915 Damage. That is the absolut best case, considering most classes have more than 25% melee reduction and often more than 400 resilience. Also you have to spend 3 points in improved eviscerate.

I think 41-20, 20-41 or something with 1X-41-0X is much stronger, but altogether no match for our beloved HARP.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

• LodeRunner

Well, with Dirty Deeds and assuming your target is below 35% health it would turn into 2298 damage. The snare problem is the biggest issue. I also wonder if 2 of the points spent in Sinister Calling aren't better spent in, say, Quick Recovery?

 

ekval

Weaker version of 31/0/30. Cheat Death is overrated, Premeditation is probably one of the rogues weakest talents, 3/5 Sinister Calling doesn't add much either (atleast pre-patch).

QR and FF both are really powerful talents and SealFate is quite nice if you have gear or T6 trinket to go with. 3/5 SC + 3/3 Cheat Death + Premeditation vs 2/2 Quick Recovery + 5/5 SealFate + Vigor. I would also prefer Lethality over Imp. Eviscerate even thought both talents are quite weak afterall.

 

Tiiki

The bit that interests me is, in 5s, if you were to take Enveloping Shadows (which I'm slowly coming to think of as a great talent) - you've got 15% AoE + 4% heightened senses + 10% fleet footed + 5% surefooted + 5% meta anti-snare.

Depending on how they stack-

That's:
20% hamstring resist
~35% nova resist
~19% aoe fear resist

Some pretty good stuff.

Clearly, in a LOT of situations, Cold Blood, esp. with Prep is better than Shadowstep. I don't think 2-3k on demand is so bad for a Rogue, esp. on exposed Cloth (where it can do nearer the top number). Blizzard have to make SStep better than CB if they want people to spec it, and I'm not sure it is. Remember, if you're hamstrung and your target is kiting, SStep does nothing...

Premeditation is total crap, but Vigor is barely better.

Lots has been said about Assass/Subt Muti builds that also don't have Imp Sprint-- are people saying they think these are worthless too now?

 

ekval

Enveloping Shadows is actually alot better in most cases than Cheat Death or Master of Subtlety.

I barely miss Imp. Sprint as Sub Mutilate, infact people seem to make too big noise about one more rootbreaker which in most cases won't win the game for you anyway. FleetFooted is quite superior to Imp. Sprint and mostly negates the need for Imp. Sprint.

 

berzerked

Imp sprint is nice, but usually you can do w/o it. The only time I would say Imp Sprint does win games, is when you are trying to gib a druid, because you HAVE to be on the druid the whole time, otherwise he(drood) will just recover.

 

stickybandit

This is my reasoning behind taking CB over lolstep. People QQ about Eviscerate having bad scaling, but it's still a big chunk of on demand damage when combined with Cold Blood and Dirty Deeds.

 

Tower

Thanks, I will non-imp sprint my way to 1600 rating? Give horrible advice on horrible boards? You go ahead and give advice on focusing druids, I'll go back to pwning minsweeper?...

Imp Sprint wins games with... rogues and warriors on the opposing team, which is what percentage in 2v2 and 3v3? Imp Sprint at this point is like Ice Block, the meta game requires snare breaks for rogues to be viables, lulz Serennia is STILL suggestting a 8/12/41 build for rogue in 2.3.2 due to Imp Sprint. You're right though, mutilate your way to Gladiator like .00001% of European rogues?

Carry on.

 

Tiiki

So Tower, do you think that in 5s, I should stay 41/20?

It's a damn shame if Shadowstep builds can't live without it, even with 2 x vanishes and a lot of snare resist (enveloping+heightened+surefooted) and Shadowstep itself...

 

ekval

I rather have passive snare resist than one more root breaker. Problem with Imp. Sprint is that you most likely get re snared after using it. FleetFooted + Surefooted + Enigmatic Skyfire Diamond is itself 20% passive snare resist and with Master Poisoner you have ~50% chance to resist Crippling Poison and that is passive. Resisting all those chill effects and other stuff is definetly better than one more root breaker.

And yes, I were doing just fine in 2100 2v2 and now doing fine near 2000 3v3 ratings without Imp. Sprint.

 

berzerked

Wow.. way to be hostile. Yes, Imp Sprint is nice but it isn't a requirement, and you can adept to fight w/o it. Just take a look at some top tier rogues that run 5x/0/x. In 2s and 3s I would agree that Imp Sprint is more of a factor than it is in 5s, and I'm sure it does win games.. common. Here is an example: The World of Warcraft Armory Or how about the guys from the TosanTwos video? dual mutilate w/o imp sprint?

All I'm trying to say is.. IMO Imp Sprint is almost a must if you want to gib a druid because you pretty much have to be on the drood 100% in order to succeed, otherwise he gains to much distance. Sure you can get HSed by a war while you are on a .. priest, but priest wont shift out of shiv in be 100yards away in 3 sec.

Edit: Right.. Serennia is an amazing top tier rogue.. oh wait, hes a warrior.

 

Fennesz

I can see where you're both coming from regarding Imp Sprint, and I have to say I'm leading a bit more toward Ekval on this one. Although I'm curious, how do you keep up with Druids as Mutilate with no Imp Sprint?

I 2s with a Frost Mage and we usually roll over Warrior/Druid teams, albeit we're only at 1700 at the moment, although we ran across some extremely good Druids last night, and even as HARP I was having trouble keeping up with them. (Typically our strategy is, he toys with the Warrior, damaging him enough to lure the Druid out, he stays on the Warrior kiting him around while I either down the Druid, wear him out so he's OOM or keep on him long enough so my partner can down the Warrior.)

Although back to my question. Do you manage to keep up with Druids? Or do you simply ignore Druids altogether and focus his partner instead?

 

Tiiki

The problem is, you simply cannot keep up with a very good Druid. Now you can shift Travel -> Travel and tank quite effectively in Caster, you cannot kill a good Resto Druid whilst they still have mana.

 

Hildegard

You especially can't kill good resto druids if warrior is chasing you. HARP was most likely the perfect anti-resto-druid-spec with double improved sprint, mace stuns, two offensive vanishs a blind as another "snare" and high dps. I don't think that it's still a viable strategy in 2.3.2 to try to finish off / oom the druid.

If Blade Twisting would be changed to work with hemo I would most likely still play 0-31-30. Right now every bracket and partner seems to have a special spec. So one will have to choose their most important team and take the spec fitting.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

BlackCadian

Not trying to barge in into your Imp Sprint discussion...


(can't live without it, mainly playing 2s tho, I can see that it might be less of an issue in 5s)


...but I'd like to know what you think of the following:

I seem to totally suck at using Blind the second I need it. I've got a focus macro for it, as well as a mouseover one. But either in the hectic I blind the wrong enemy using the mouseover, or take way to long for it trying to get my cursor over him whilst frantically trying to stick to and dps the main target, or we get rushed and I don't have time to set one of my opponents as a focus. Or sometimes, we come up vs 1+ stealth class, and with my team makeup, we usually need the blind on the stealther later on, so no focus frame either -.-

Any good advice? How do you use your Blind?

"If teh alliance had shamens, we wud win more battlegrounses" - random ally (Pre BC)

 

Hildegard

In 2vs2 I usually just use tab eventough I have a mouseover macro aswell. I think I have to rework my reflexes and do some BGs just with the mouseover macro.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

BlackCadian

oh yeah I was gonna add, when tabbing you might get a pet, or due to how the tab-targeting mechanic works (cone & circle) the same target (not the other opponent).

I just realised that I never tried using my proximo for blind targeting purposes, maybe that would work....

"If teh alliance had shamens, we wud win more battlegrounses" - random ally (Pre BC)